The state of the lineside - is it getting better?

[daccer]

One on going debate that has rumbled on for some time has been the state of the lineside and the appearance of the railway in general. I was wondering if with the advent of NR's recycling yard at March and a higher concentration on value for money is there now a greater emphasis on collecting redundant materials as there is a monetary value which can be reclaimed and has the regulation of worksites improved to stop the waste of materials.

On a more general not has there been more attention paid by NR to how the railway does appear to the public? I know with regards to stations much more time and money is now invested to ensure buildings etc have some aesthetic appeal rather than just a 1960's pragmatism which resulted in brutalism galore.

Lastly with regards to graffiti, rubbish and general dilapidation does it matter if the railway doesn't look its best so long as it works? Do people care? I know Tfl have a zero policy on graffiti but should NR spend cash on these kinds of issues?

 

[Cab2Cab]

Hi,

My old man worked on the railway and any modern day photo shown to him make's him comment on the state of the railway, "look all at them weeds, you would never have seen a weed in my day" (ex steam chappy).

Things like vegetation creeps up on the disused parts of the railway, the reduction in manpower and ownership of certain bits of land. I hate to see the railway looking a mess but everything comes at cost now and contractors charging a fortune thinking the rail network has a endless pot of money.

Last year i went to Switzerland and the rail network is clean, all yards/depots in full service, lineside is clean, all towns have freight hubs with mixed freight services like the old speedlink so no disused yards all but probably a few somewhere.
They do have a problem with graffiti tho, under rail bridges and on the outskirts of a city, but i think they just leave it knowing if they clean it up the taggers will be back.

Just to add, i never want through a ticket barrier all the visit, trust eh! and then there is the UK.

Cheers

 

[455driver]

There has been a lot of tree clearance in our neck of the woods (did you see what I did there ) and the scrub has also been cleaned up , it looks quite presentable now, plus it helps in the leaf fall season as there are not so many leaves too fall..

 

[Inox]

I'm sure there will be posts saying that NR have better and more critical work to do than clearing weeds and fixing up the lineside.

I think that it's an important part of the infrastructure. The route between Manc Vic and Bolton is full of litter and discarded crap thrown onto the lines.

How much does it cost to safety train and hire a bunch of litter pickers and have them walk the sides clearing up the mess?

If NR's property (i.e. it's product) is left in a mess, what's it like in the boardroom?

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure there will be posts saying that NR have better and more critical work to do than clearing weeds and fixing up the lineside.

I think that it's an important part of the infrastructure. The route between Manc Vic and Bolton is full of litter and discarded crap thrown onto the lines.

How much does it cost to safety train and hire a bunch of litter pickers and have them walk the sides clearing up the mess?

If NR's property (i.e. it's product) is left in a mess, what's it like in the boardroom?

It isn't simply a case of training people up. The main problem is getting track access to collect the litter.

As for the final paragraph :roll:

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed...it's not as easy as it might sound. You'd either have to train one of each litter-picking gang to act as COSS, or provide a COSS to accompany them. Each one of them would need to be PTS-trained. Once you've done all that (at no small cost), as DarloRich says, you've then got to arrange access - very little is done 'red zone' nowadays, so it'd most likely be done under line blockages betwen trains (not very productive on busy lines where they'd be brought off every few minutes!), and that'd need to be co-ordinated around other works also being done under line blockages, sparing a thought for the poor Signalman who's got to provide protection for the whole lot (and will usually refuse to grant more than a specified number of line blockages simultaneously).

 

[Bald Rick]

If NR's property (i.e. it's product) is left in a mess, what's it like in the boardroom?

Neat and tidy yesterday since you ask

 

[Inox]

ha.

I was just having a mini rant. I get the issues over possession of the track and that. I don't doubt it's difficult and NR have A LOT more critical work to do. It was just a point about the state of some of the lines that I'm aware of that have been covered in crud for years, you know

ah well. I'm glad the boardroom is spick and span

 

[HSTEd]

Now that we do not have issues with line-side fires from cinders from steam locomotives, there is little point maintaining the line-side in the "tidy" standard that was the norm when Steam was ubiquitous.

Doing so just bleeds money that could be spent on something more useful.

 

[ivanhoe]

Now that we do not have issues with line-side fires from cinders from steam locomotives, there is little point maintaining the line-side in the "tidy" standard that was the norm when Steam was ubiquitous.

Doing so just bleeds money that could be spent on something more useful.

Sorry, but have to disagree with you here. Tidiness is a sign that you are looking after your assets . Whilst fly tipping and general attitudes to litter are a national problem, it has been proved that regular tidying does have some effect. I understand the problems of track access but in many parts of the country, it's not a 24 hour railway.

 

[455driver]

It was mainly the cinders from those steam engines that kept the lineside neat and tidy by setting fire to it (in a small way) rather than the huge fires (because the lineside is so overgrown) that we suffer from now.

Also those small lineside fires were allowed to burn themselves out (rather than be extinguished) and the trains kept running (almost) normally.
Once the lineside was burnt down it wont catch fire again easily either.

I watched a program a few years ago about forest fires and how it is better to allow and control the small fire (or even start them) which will burn all the small, dry stuff (but not the trees) rather than extinguish all the small (naturally occuring) fires which then allows the small, dry stuff to build up and then results in a huge fire which destroys everything.

 

[Mugby]

If you look in any picture albums of the 1950's and 60's, the condition of the ballast and cesses was astonishing. It was a job called 'Penny Lining' to get the line of the ballast perfectly straight with not a stone out of place. In those days, BR even gave prizes for 'best kept length' to the local P/Way staff.

Control of vegetation wasn't just down to fires from steam engine cinders, bank burning was a regular and legitimate P/Way job.

Today, there aren't any cesses, just an absolute mess. Access points have been turned into quagmires by heavy plant being delivered and NR won't even collect scrap rail because usually they won't pay for the engine power of a scrap train after a re-railing job.

 

[HSTEd]

Sorry, but have to disagree with you here. Tidiness is a sign that you are looking after your assets . Whilst fly tipping and general attitudes to litter are a national problem, it has been proved that regular tidying does have some effect. I understand the problems of track access but in many parts of the country, it's not a 24 hour railway.

This cleaning would cost significant sums of money and would have no discernible benefits.

How much do you propose to put up ticket prices to pay for this?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I can't remember how often on the Cornish ML, but around every 5 years the P/way used to burn off the cuttings and embankments. Complete devastation!! But just after 2 weeks it was all greening up again.
Vegetation ''eyesores'' are absolute heaven for wildlife - a sterile green lawn is like a desert!! Butterflies love a clump of Nettles!
Growth like small trees etc on Bridges and other structures can cause extensive damage to them.

 

[ivanhoe]

This cleaning would cost significant sums of money and would have no discernible benefits.

How much do you propose to put up ticket prices to pay for this?

How about Network Rail looking after their assets. It's a question of good facility management. There's enough money in NR budget without threatening increased track access charges to TOCS.

 

[455driver]

There's enough money in NR budget without threatening increased track access charges to TOCS.

Could you provide a breakdown of Network Rails finances to back up this rather bold statement please!

 

[HSTEd]

How about Network Rail looking after their assets. It's a question of good facility management. There's enough money in NR budget without threatening increased track access charges to TOCS.

Wasting money on pointless cosmetic work with no effect on services is "good facilities management"?

 

[DarloRich]

I understand the problems of track access but in many parts of the country, it's not a 24 hour railway.

I get the issues over possession of the track and that.

I dont think you do. it isn't simply a case of waiting for the trains to finish then letting loose a team of blokes.

NR won't even collect scrap rail because usually they won't pay for the engine power of a scrap train after a re-railing job.

I wish it was simply a case of having to pay for "engine power of a scarp train"! :roll:

 

[Harlesden]

In thinking about the state of the lineside, there are a number of things to consider.
First there are labour costs.
Today's railway is top heavy with management on management level salaries. This leaves less money for actually running the railway and keeping it in a clean, tidy and safe condition.
Decades ago in the "good old days", the ordinary railway workers worked for a pittance not only because it was way better than being unemployed or holding a mundane factory job, but also because a railwayman in those days had immense pride in simply being a part of the railway family. The wage he earned was secondary.
Those days have gone and railway employees now receive the pay that they deserve for the work that they do. There are still dedicated railway employees, but much of the pride in the simple fact of working for the railway has gone. The modern day economic climate makes it necessary for the employee to consider pay above all else.
The reduction in "shop floor" staff, combined with the increasing layers of management and the bringing of pay rates into the modern era along with the increasing vandalism and littering that is now a part of our modern society makes it virtually impossible to have a spick and span railway. The average customer wants a reliable train service rather more than he wants a smart pristine railway environment.

 

[daccer]

One slight anomaly that does perplex me with regards to NR's attitude to the lineside and the clearance of rubbish, vegetation and graffiti is that the same attitude does not seem to extend to stations anymore. Massive amounts of cash is being spent on improving the ambience of many stations with costs undoubtedly being increased by the need to improve aesthetics and retain the 'period' features. This by no means 'essential' spending but improves the overall journey experience for the passenger. I am wondering why the lineside and its appearance doesn't have the same consideration.

 

[HSTEd]

The money spent on station refurbs does not come from NRs ordinary budget, it is provided by grants established specifically for the purpose.

 

[Bald Rick]

One slight anomaly that does perplex me with regards to NR's attitude to the lineside and the clearance of rubbish, vegetation and graffiti is that the same attitude does not seem to extend to stations anymore. Massive amounts of cash is being spent on improving the ambience of many stations with costs undoubtedly being increased by the need to improve aesthetics and retain the 'period' features. This by no means 'essential' spending but improves the overall journey experience for the passenger. I am wondering why the lineside and its appearance doesn't have the same consideration.

Principally because every passenger will spend some time at a station. It is not intended that passengers spend any time on the lineside.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The money spent on station refurbs does not come from NRs ordinary budget, it is provided by grants established specifically for the purpose.

Most station refurb work is from the Buildings asset renewal budget. There is a separate fund for specific targeted upgrades,and another fund for upgrades that have a commercial pay back.

 

[High Dyke]

A few years ago a re-railing job took place and the redundant rail was dumped in the grass verge. This was in an urban location and eventually got moved when the local council - fed up with encountering this 'fly tipping' causing problems when they wanted to cut the grass - took legal action.

 

[MattRobinson]

If trees are allowed to grow and then are cut down, that can have a destabilising effect on embankments and cuttings.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Trog]

If trees are allowed to grow and then are cut down, that can have a destabilising effect on embankments and cuttings.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

As can letting them grow and leaving them.

Best to flail the banks every couple of years if you can and keep things short.
(Except Japanese Knotweed which needs chemical removal.)

 

[Cliveblackpool]

As can letting them grow and leaving them.

Best to flail the banks every couple of years if you can and keep things short.
(Except Japanese Knotweed which needs chemical removal.)

An absolute nightmare of a plant.
You can flail Japanese Knotweed, but the trimmings must be by law, left in situ, and preferably burn.
A very evasive & destructive plant. Often found by watercourses and roadsides. 1/2 inch root/ stalk will form a new plant. Breaks through concrete, crosses roads, very deep roots, and powerful chemicals needed to eradicate it.
Very expensive to destroy, and can make a property unmortgageable.
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=13789

 

[MattRobinson]

As can letting them grow and leaving them.

Best to flail the banks every couple of years if you can and keep things short.

Exactly.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[PHILIPE]

Network Rail are one of the biggest culprits by leaving their materials lying about. Vulnerable to theft and "weapons of vandalism"

 

[Mugby]

I travelled from Derby to Sheffield yesterday and I noticed there was scrap rail on the downside cess all the way between Derby and Clay Cross, a distance of 18 miles!

 

[DarloRich]

I travelled from Derby to Sheffield yesterday and I noticed there was scrap rail on the downside cess all the way between Derby and Clay Cross, a distance of 18 miles!

are you sure it is all scrap? it could be recently dropped off new rail, strategically placed emergency rail, scrap, serviceable rail waiting for collection etc.

I dont think many people understand the complexities involved in recovering rail. It seems so simple but it isn't. Honestly!