Availability of train toilets

[ryan125hst]

Just off to check out the price and weight of a portaloo!

I had the same thoughts myself. Will this be OK?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But as I keep saying, its not a major problem like is being made out and only trains on short journies don't have a toilet. Any healthy person can go an hour and a bit without needing the loo. If you can't then you know you can't and you plan things around that.

That's a fair comment, but how do the public know which stations have toilets and whether or not they are open? I don't know of one TOC that includes this information in their timetables. It's easy if you make a journey regularly, but if it is a one off, you are going to stuggle to plan it in advance.

 

[yorksrob]

My car isnt fitted with a toilet and it gets used for journeys of well over an hour most weeks!

Maybe i should complain to Vauxhall about this monumental oversight!

If I were a driver I'm sure I'd welcome the concept of an in car lavetory, so I'm sure there's nowt wrong in suggesting it to them

 

[A-driver]

Firstly, theatres, cinema's, passenger planes etc all have toilets. Even mororways have service stations. By premium Intercity passengers, I'm talking about the high paying business traveller from London to the North, but who may start his journey at Ascot travelling for a London connection (or Kingswood perhaps). Are you saying that this traveller should be expected to forego the previous nights curry with his high powered business buddies just because the TOC's replacements for the 455's shouldn't have toilets?
W

No, I'm saying he should do what anyone with an ounce of common sense would do and use the toilet before going out and they will then find it possible to last a full hour without needing to go again! When they get to London the station will have a toilet.

As for motorways etc, if you need the loo on a motorway you still have to hold it till you get to services. In traffic this could be a while. Bt you plan ahead don't you, you plan to drive for 2 hours, then use the services etc. You can actually do the same on a train, if you feel you can't last an hour on a suburban train without having an accident (something which the other 700 people on board are able to do) then you plan to get off half way at a larger station with toilets,use the loo then get n the next train.

I can't believe this argument is still going on! It's well known that trams, tubes, metros, busses and suburban trains don't have toilets. They won't build them with loos as it reduces capacity and makes the heavy usage with short turnarounds that suburban trains have unrealistic.

You are arguing that trains companies should re address the way that they operate for a very small minority of people who apparently lack common sense and board a short distance suburban service whilst bursting for the toilet.

As I keep saying, this isn't a real problem - if it were then it would have been addressed. When I take a rush hour train from letchworth to moorgate (an journey of around 1hr 10mins so by similar to reading-Waterloo) I don't have a toilet on board and none of the hundreds of passengers crammed on board every wet themselves as far as I know-and I imagine it would be pretty obvious if they did by the complaints from other passengers!

 

[A-driver]

As the driver of your car, you have the prerogative of pulling off the road as necessary, stopping at a garage, retail complex, heck even motorway service area! Even if you never have to avail yourself of this luxury, at least you know you can if the need arises.

You still have to find somewhere with a toilet to stop though dont you. You can't just stop the car and wee at the side of the road in a town!

And as a train passenger you have the prerogative of getting off the train at the next station and using the loo there before waiting for the next one. A train without a toilet will be stopping every few minutes anyway and if the station dosnt have toilets then you can leave the station and find somewhere with a loo (in exactly the same that you would in a car). And before people argue that you can't leave a station without buying a new ticket etc-if you a that desperate for the loo then a staffed station will have toilets for the staff which they will let you use, if they don't then they will let you out to use the loo.

So Im afraid I don't buy any one your argument the as its no different in a car/bus/taxi to on a short distance commuter train.

 

[yorksrob]

Firstly, you must have some pretty boring curries if they allow you to control your bowell movements down to the hour.

Secondly, I believe that specifying TOC's should progressively ensure that new suburban trains should include toilets, just like Network SouthEast very sensibly did when it ordered its networkers

Thirdly, I believe I've been consistent in my opposition to the conversion of long suburban routes into trams (or toiletless pacers as I call them) for this reason amongst others.

 

[trainophile]

I had the same thoughts myself. Will this be OK?

I went to a wedding in a marquee that had those, they were uber-posh. Pity about the sodden muddy field to get to them...

No, I'm saying he should do what anyone with an ounce of common sense would do and use the toilet before going out and they will then find it possible to last a full hour without needing to go again! When they get to London the station will have a toilet.

As for motorways etc, if you need the loo on a motorway you still have to hold it till you get to services. In traffic this could be a while. Bt you plan ahead don't you, you plan to drive for 2 hours, then use the services etc. You can actually do the same on a train, if you feel you can't last an hour on a suburban train without having an accident (something which the other 700 people on board are able to do) then you plan to get off half way at a larger station with toilets,use the loo then get n the next train.

I can't believe this argument is still going on! It's well known that trams, tubes, metros, busses and suburban trains don't have toilets. They won't build them with loos as it reduces capacity and makes the heavy usage with short turnarounds that suburban trains have unrealistic.

You are arguing that trains companies should re address the way that they operate for a very small minority of people who apparently lack common sense and board a short distance suburban service whilst bursting for the toilet.

As I keep saying, this isn't a real problem - if it were then it would have been addressed. When I take a rush hour train from letchworth to moorgate (an journey of around 1hr 10mins so by similar to reading-Waterloo) I don't have a toilet on board and none of the hundreds of passengers crammed on board every wet themselves as far as I know-and I imagine it would be pretty obvious if they did by the complaints from other passengers!

If a through ticket is half the price of splitting the journey, it's not really an option as most of us like to travel as economically as possible (unless the employer is paying ).

There's also the problem of young children, who have small bladders and constantly seem to want a drink. Oh and if you've ever been in the same carriage as a baby with a full nappy because there's nowhere for it to be changed... hock:.

Good point about not knowing which intermediate stations have toilets anyway. I travelled to Hunts Cross the other day, just to see what is there (southern end of Merseyrail's Northern Line). I'd seen on NR that it has a toilet, but when I went to suss it out it was locked 'Out of Order'. Luckily I was just on a recce, but if I'd been hanging on that could have been difficult, to say the least.

 

[A-driver]

If you are that unwell after a curry that you have no control over your bowels then you are best off not travelling at all, even if you are on a toilet train its not fair on the other passengers. It's not normal after eating any food to loose all control of your bowel so I would go to a dr as it sounds like you have IBS which is perfectly curable (normally by a change in diet and lifestyle).

Networkers and other suburban units with toilets often suffer from the toilets being locked out of use (which is what started this thred off). The reason for that is that toilets on suburban routes are unworkable. There isn't the turnaround time on any suburban diagrams any more to re tank the water and they spend far less time in depots with CET facilities than longer distance trains do. Plus inner suburban trains see more vandalism etc which also causes toilets to be locked out.

Insisting that all new suburban trains have toilets on board will not only reduce capacity but also require diagramming to be re-done. You would need to build more platforms in terminal stations to allow longer turn arounds whilst they are re-tanked as there isn't currently the capacity for that. You would need more CET roads in depots, you would need far more units than you currently have for the services to allow more time to be spent in the yards whilst toilets are emptied and cleaned, you would need more staff to maintain the toilets and drive the extra units between the station and the depot. The cost of that would be astronomical and its not needed because this isn't a problem for 99% of passengers who, unlike you, are able to control their bowel and bladder and if they can't they will do the sensible thing and get off the train at a station (toilet less trains stop at a station every few minutes).

I think the best advice for you is not to eat a curry the night before travelling on a suburban train until you have seemed medical advice as what you describe certainly dosnt sound normal and I eat a fair amount of exotic and spicy foods!

 

[Tibbs]

If I were a driver I'm sure I'd welcome the concept of an in car lavetory, so I'm sure there's nowt wrong in suggesting it to them

As any lorry driver will tell you, an empty coke bottle functions well as an in car urinal at least!

 

[A-driver]

I went to a wedding in a marquee that had those, they were uber-posh. Pity about the sodden muddy field to get to them...




If a through ticket is half the price of splitting the journey, it's not really an option as most of us like to travel as economically as possible (unless the employer is paying ).

There's also the problem of young children, who have small bladders and constantly seem to want a drink. Oh and if you've ever been in the same carriage as a baby with a full nappy because there's nowhere for it to be changed... hock:.

Good point about not knowing which intermediate stations have toilets anyway. I travelled to Hunts Cross the other day, just to see what is there (southern end of Merseyrail's Northern Line). I'd seen on NR that it has a toilet, but when I went to suss it out it was locked 'Out of Order'. Luckily I was just on a recce, but if I'd been hanging on that could have been difficult, to say the least.

Ill just repeat all my last posts. For children, baby's who need changing etc get off at a station! There are many of them every few minutes on these trains that we are discussing!

You don't need a split ticket etc to use the loo at a station, if you a that desperate then you just explain to barrier staff and they will help you-even the most militant and un friendly ticket inspector isn't going to refuse you access to a toilet in an emergancy-and if they do and you end up with a fine then you will have a very very good chance of winning an appeal and a judge would certainly side with you in court, especially if you have a medical condition.

As for not knowing which stations have a toilet, how do you know where you will find a toilet when driving a car? Get off the train, if there is no toilet on that station ask the staff, if there are no staff then no ticket related problems leaving the station to find a toilet around the station-all suburban stations will have some kind of pub, cafe, shop etc with a toilet within reasonable walking distance.

What do you people find so hard to understand?! Is there no common sense left in the world?!

 

[trainophile]

Digressing slightly, but just wondering if, in desperation, you jump off a train at a station that turns out to have no facilities, so you have to do your business on the platform... if caught on CCTV would that count as a prosecutable offence of urinating in a public place? Even when there was absolutely no alternative?

 

[yorksrob]

Firstly, are you saying that those suffering from IBS shouldn't travel at all?

Secondly, regarding CET facilities in depots etc, this is exactly what NSE did with Kent Link, so yes.

Thirdly I'm well aware that train toilets fail for various reasons, but having them fail sometimes is better yhan not having them at all.

 

[trainophile]

Ill just repeat all my last posts. For children, baby's who need changing etc get off at a station! There are many of them every few minutes on these trains that we are discussing!

You don't need a split ticket etc to use the loo at a station, if you a that desperate then you just explain to barrier staff and they will help you-even the most militant and un friendly ticket inspector isn't going to refuse you access to a toilet in an emergancy-and if they do and you end up with a fine then you will have a very very good chance of winning an appeal and a judge would certainly side with you in court, especially if you have a medical condition.

As for not knowing which stations have a toilet, how do you know where you will find a toilet when driving a car? Get off the train, if there is no toilet on that station ask the staff, if there are no staff then no ticket related problems leaving the station to find a toilet around the station-all suburban stations will have some kind of pub, cafe, shop etc with a toilet within reasonable walking distance.

What do you people find so hard to understand?! Is there no common sense left in the world?!

Don't get so het up, we're only having a discussion . Nowt on TV tonight.

 

[A-driver]

Digressing slightly, but just wondering if, in desperation, you jump off a train at a station that turns out to have no facilities, so you have to do your business on the platform... if caught on CCTV would that count as a prosecutable offence of urinating in a public place? Even when there was absolutely no alternative?

For heavens sake, there is an alternative-use common sense and go to the loo before leaving home. We are talking about short journies of less than an hour.

You are getting very very silly and your arguments are very quickly loosing any sense of reality.

Unless very ill people can last a suburban train journey without getting that desperate. I really would see your GP if I were you as it seems that you have bowel and bladder issues which could affect many elements of your life, not just short train journies.

 

[A-driver]

And I'm saying anyone with ibs shod plan ahead before travelling, its common sense. Of course I'm not saying they shouldn't travel at all, just don't have a hot curry before travelling if it may affect you.

 

[455driver]

But we have gone from commuter trains to curries, to children and now we have IBS thrown in the mix!

Oh hang on its still the same train. :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

I offered the opportunity for us to agree to disagree, but as Vic and Bob would put it, you wouldn't let it lay.

 

[trainophile]

For heavens sake, there is an alternative-use common sense and go to the loo before leaving home. We are talking about short journies of less than an hour.

You are getting very very silly and your arguments are very quickly loosing any sense of reality.

Unless very ill people can last a suburban train journey without getting that desperate. I really would see your GP if I were you as it seems that you have bowel and bladder issues which could affect many elements of your life, not just short train journies.

No, YOU are talking about short journeys of less than an hour. I have already illustrated the Southport to Chester situation i.e. not much short of two hours. Then there are trains that break down between stations, or cannot proceed for whatever reason.

But as the whole topic incenses you so much I'll shurrup now. Night night.

 

[A-driver]

I offered the opportunity for us to agree to disagree, but as Vic and Bob would put it, you wouldn't let it lay.

No, because I refuse to accept that a few people unable to go an hour without wetting themselves is a real problem which needs the railway industry to spend millions on.

 

[Aldaniti]

And I'm saying anyone with ibs shod plan ahead before travelling, its common sense. Of course I'm not saying they shouldn't travel at all, just don't have a hot curry before travelling if it may affect you.

A-driver, with all due respect can I suggest you read up on IBS before you carry on with the thrust of your argument? Without going into too much detail many IBS suffers lead very limiting lives, believe me, they are very much used to having plan ahead when it comes to journeys, sometimes they won't even undertake them because of their condition, it can lead to mindset where they need to feel as if a toilet is at hand 'just in case', it can take over their lives and sometimes lead to depression or worse. Some can cope with it better than others but, because of the nature of the problem (bowels!) and society's attitude toward such problems, they tend to keep their problems to themselves. I'm not suggesting that as a country we should provide facilities for every eventuality for every person, just that people like yourself try to understand that not everyone enjoys perfect health and a cast iron bladder or bowel!

 

[A-driver]

A-driver, with all due respect can I suggest you read up on IBS before you carry on with the thrust of your argument? Without going into too much detail many IBS suffers lead very limiting lives, believe me, they are very much used to having plan ahead when it comes to journeys, sometimes they won't even undertake them because of their condition, it can lead to mindset where they need to feel as if a toilet is at hand 'just in case', it can take over their lives and sometimes lead to depression or worse. Some can cope with it better than others but, because of the nature of the problem (bowels!) and society's attitude toward such problems, they tend to keep their problems to themselves. I'm not suggesting that as a country we should provide facilities for every eventuality for every person, just that people like yourself try to understand that not everyone enjoys perfect health and a cast iron bladder or bowel!

Thanks for that-but just to let you know, I have IBS so know all about it. It is very mild at the moment and has been for the past couple of years but a number if years ago it was quite severe and I dreaded long journies-with or without facilities.

But I never expected industries to plan around me-I just took the condition into account myself. And its a lifestyle illness mainly, so not having a hot curry before spending time away from a toilet is generally the best way around it!

 

[455driver]

I suppose "them" bringing IBS int this thread is quite appropriate really, they have been talking a load of $%£# for half of this thread!

 

[Aldaniti]

Thanks for that-but just to let you know, I have IBS so know all about it. It is very mild at the moment and has been for the past couple of years but a number if years ago it was quite severe and I dreaded long journies-with or without facilities.

But I never expected industries to plan around me-I just took the condition into account myself. And its a lifestyle illness mainly, so not having a hot curry before spending time away from a toilet is generally the best way around it!

I won't say anything else but if you believe IBS is a lifestyle illness you know little about it and I struggle to understand how someone who says they have suffered from IBS would make such a comment. Are you sure IBS is in fact the correct diagnosis? I was diagnosed in my mid twenties and my consultant believes that the onset was as a direct result of glandular fever. Oh, and I don't eat curry, never have, or anything that is likely to make my condition worse for that matter!

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose "them" bringing IBS int this thread is quite appropriate really, they have been talking a load of $%£# for half of this thread!

I think you'll find that A-Driver brought up the subject of IBS in post 187.

 

[A-driver]

Well this thread seems to have gone on a bit. Can't say I'm that interested in carrying on the discussion as its going around in circles. I have made my point and stick by it.

As I say, there is little need for toilets on trains which most people spend a very short time on.

 

[Dave1987]

Had a toilet locked out today because some chav had decided to smash up the sink. A woman complained that the toilet was locked out saying it was against her human rights etc etc, even when she was shown the smashed sink she said it wasn't good enough. Is it the railways fault that some chav has decided to vandalise the toilet.

 

[broadgage]

x2

And where to put 'it' all after it's been emptied from the trains? Take Waterloo for example, I highly doubt Lambeth London Borough Council will enjoy having to cope with possibly thousands of tons of extra human excrement each year in it's sewer system. Not without significant compensation anyway.

I doubt that the volumes of waste would be significant compared to the huge numbers of existing toilets in buildings.
Sewage disposal is done by Thames water, not by borough councils, and whilst disposal costs money I doubt that it costs any more to dispose of it at say Waterloo than at Wimbledon depot.
Similar arguments apply elswhere, waste disposal costs money, but should not in general cost more at one location than at another.

 

[pinguini]

Yes yes yes, usual rhetoric, train companies actually make 3% per ticket actually........

Whats your definition of 'make' though? Is that 3% profit AFTER all associated operating costs, including toilet facilities?

 

[W230]

A woman complained that the toilet was locked out saying it was against her human rights etc etc, even when she was shown the smashed sink she said it wasn't good enough.

I'd love to know which article under the Human Rights Act she felt had been breached then?!

Maybe Freedom of Expression?

 

[Dave1987]

Whats your definition of 'make' though? Is that 3% profit AFTER all associated operating costs, including toilet facilities?

Yes of course it is

 

[sarahj]

When Southern put in tank emptying facilites in one station, Eastbourne IIRC, they had to pay to have the local sewer system upgraded to cope with it.