Fell asleep on train and now being prosecuted

[Buckshot78]

I've got the same problem as thebrad

I got a letter from Northern Rail's Debt Recovery Prosecution Unit for an offence last December. I fell asleep on the train and woke up at the next and final stop. I asked the guards if I could pay the difference and was told that I would be sent a bill in the post - the bill is for the £1.90 difference and an £80 fine on top!

The journey was from a meeting in St Helens to Wavertree Tech Park which is where I work. I've made the same journey on numerous occasions and have my tickets to prove it. I don't live anywhere near the stop where I got off so I don't think they could claim that either.

What really gets me is that the letter gives me no opportunity to reply or appeal: it simply says pay within 14 days or else. I've spoken to someone at the Debt Recovery Unit and she's told me that the decision was made by the prosecutions team based on the guard's report (which needless to say I can't see). I've emailed them stating my case, but I'm not holding my breath.

In any case, I've only got eight days to pay now or it will go to court. Any advice?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I guess the letter does make your situation look very black or white, with no middle ground for making a plea of mitigation or having it heard by an indeendant arbitrator.
But in fact there are those possibilities, though by taking that chance, you will miss the opportunity just to settle the £80 charge and put an end to it.

If you let this opportunity pass, then you will find that it does go forward for investigation and, we'll guess here, then goes forward for prosecution in Court. During that process, there will be an opportunity for you to attempt to negotiate some sort of plea or to agree some sort of settlement. And if that fails, then you will be able to put your side of the argument in front of the Magistrates and have them decide the matter. (If you did want to go to Court, then the rules of disclosure will ensure that you DO have the opportunity to read the Evidence against you - which will include the Inspector's report).

But if you'd also like my assessment of the best value for your time and money, then it will probably be to accept the £80 offer now; and then forget about it.

 

[Swirlz]

If he had ticket from St. Helens to Wavertree Tech Park and fell asleep, I bet he got off at Liverpool Lime Street, the final stop, and attempted to leave the station via the barriers instead of simply getting the next train back.

At the end of the day, a passenger needs to take responsibility for themselves. Should train companies be effectively giving free travel to people who can't keep track of when to get off?

 

[ReverendFozz]

I've got the same problem as thebrad

I got a letter from Northern Rail's Debt Recovery Prosecution Unit for an offence last December. I fell asleep on the train and woke up at the next and final stop. I asked the guards if I could pay the difference and was told that I would be sent a bill in the post - the bill is for the £1.90 difference and an £80 fine on top!

The journey was from a meeting in St Helens to Wavertree Tech Park which is where I work. I've made the same journey on numerous occasions and have my tickets to prove it. I don't live anywhere near the stop where I got off so I don't think they could claim that either.

What really gets me is that the letter gives me no opportunity to reply or appeal: it simply says pay within 14 days or else. I've spoken to someone at the Debt Recovery Unit and she's told me that the decision was made by the prosecutions team based on the guard's report (which needless to say I can't see). I've emailed them stating my case, but I'm not holding my breath.

In any case, I've only got eight days to pay now or it will go to court. Any advice?

Out of interest, why only deal with it now, 4 months on, or has it taking that long for Northern to write to you...

I now realise how lucky I once was after I once fell asleep on train to York, fell asleep and ended up at either Brough or Hull, and the guard and driver decided to drop me off in York on the way back.

Feel sorry for you mate, sounds quite harsh, bit then I guess the more cynical guards deal with chancers and bums(not impying you are a bim) everyday and hear that excuse all the time...

Hope u get it sorted pal

 

[soil]

If he had ticket from St. Helens to Wavertree Tech Park and fell asleep, I bet he got off at Liverpool Lime Street, the final stop, and attempted to leave the station via the barriers instead of simply getting the next train back.

Unclear at this point.

Perhaps the OP could clarify whether he was caught on the train or at the barriers, and if it was at the barriers, why he didn't head back to Wavertree.

 

[Buckshot78]

Thanks for your helpful reply swirlz. Good to see the helpful attitude we hope for in rail staff.

You're right by the way, I did try to leave the station as I decided to take advantage of the situation by going shopping, which was why I explained my situation at the barrier and pay the difference. Naively I thought common sense might encourage the staff to charge me £1.90 but unfortunately not.

In retrospect the best thing would have been to get the next train back but with no ticket for Lime St to Wavertree Tech Park I would have been travelling illegally again wouldn't I?

I'm mainly annoyed at a fine which is a 4000% increase on the existing sum, especially since the equivalent fine at the merseyrail station a quarter of a mile away would have been £20...

In reply to the earlier posters, yes I only got the letter last week. I assumed it had been forgotten about as even the guard led me to believe it was possible no action would be taken as the sum was so small.

I didn't see the guard on the train when I got off so decided to approach the barrier and was sent through to see the representative on the other side, so I didn't even have the option to go back then!!

Thanks for your help anyway fozz and Dave.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for your helpful reply swirlz. Good to see the helpful attitude we hope for in rail staff.

swirlz is not rail staff, but as you say, he was right...

You're right by the way, I did try to leave the station as I decided to take advantage of the situation...

So that makes it very easy for us to give advice: pay the £80.

Unless there are any further developments, I think that concludes the thread.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm afraid you're still not being very clear.

Did you try to leave the station without paying, and then only when challenged, offer to pay the £1.90, or did you try to leave by approaching the barrier staff and asking for a ticket without trying to sneak through on your existing ticket?

 

[Spaceflower]

Again, I'd say it seems rather heavy handed. It may be the case that everyone is being tarred as 'chancers' or 'bims' when in fact, we are just human. Where will the money go by the way? The Hague?

 

[noddingdonkey]

You're right by the way, I did try to leave the station as I decided to take advantage of the situation by going shopping, which was why I explained my situation at the barrier and pay the difference. Naively I thought common sense might encourage the staff to charge me £1.90 but unfortunately not.

Unless I've missed something here, you should have been allowed to excess your ticket as per the National Conditions of Carriage: which is what you claim to have asked to do at the ticket barrier. (I don't know whether Lime Street has ticket-selling staff on the barrier, but given that other major stations have excess fare windows or ticket buying opportunities in advance of the barrier it would not be unreasonable to assume there was such as facility at Lime Street.)

18. If you travel further than a ticket allows
If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. The relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms

(I've edited that to avoid quoting too much here. Condition 4 relates to Penalty Fares which Northern do not operate.)

It sounds to me like the NCoC requires you to pay the price of a single for the portion of the journey for which you don't hold a ticket, which is £1.90 and what you proposed to the rail staff.

 

[Crossover]

Without the query put forward by maniacmartin being answered, it would be difficult to suggest the best solution, though what DaveNewcastle has said will ensure the problem is "put to bed" without any further repercussions.

I have my thoughts knowing what Northern seem to be like at the moment, but for the time being, I will keep them out of this thread until any further information becomes available

 

[Buckshot78]

Sorry I probably wasn't clear in that I approached the barrier to explain my mistake and at that point I was happy to either pay the extra and leave the station or travel back to my original destination if that wasn't possible. As soon as I started to explain to the guy on the barrier I was ushered through so by that point I couldn't go back through even if I wanted to (I did ask). I didn't really have a chance to try and sneak through even if I wanted to.

In any case, I've written to the debt recovery unit explaining my willingness to pay the fare and a (reasonable) fine. On the basis of some of the comments here, I'm not expecting too much sympathy.

Oh well, thanks for the helpful replies. Out of interest, if I had travelled back to my original stop could I have been fined for travelling without a ticket? Was I effectively trapped on the platform with no way of escaping a fine??!

 

[yorkie]

Sorry I probably wasn't clear in that I approached the barrier to explain my mistake...

Oh, in that case perhaps I misunderstood what you said earlier. Perhaps the staff at the gateline did too?

Oh well, thanks for the helpful replies. Out of interest, if I had travelled back to my original stop could I have been fined for travelling without a ticket? Was I effectively trapped on the platform with no way of escaping a fine??!

If you had travelled back, the Conductor would have either let you off or charged you for a ticket. The revenue staff you encountered have noted down the details because they suspect you of evading the fare. Northern's prosecution unit has decided against going straight for prosecution (which, if found guilty, would lead to a fine, in addition to costs & the fare due, also being payable) and instead are effectively offering you the opportunity to settle out of court for £80.

You can agree to settle, by paying the £80, or you can decline to pay it, and see if they do prosecute you or not.

Without knowing what evidence Northern have, we cannot easily advise you on what course of action you should take. It really is something you will need to decide.

But if you do not pay it, and if they do prosecute you, you would need to ensure that you get proper legal representation in Court, as not only would a successful prosecution result in a fine (+ costs & the fare) but would also result in a criminal record.

 

[soil]

Unless I've missed something here, you should have been allowed to excess your ticket as per the National Conditions of Carriage: which is what you claim to have asked to do at the ticket barrier. (I don't know whether Lime Street has ticket-selling staff on the barrier, but given that other major stations have excess fare windows or ticket buying opportunities in advance of the barrier it would not be unreasonable to assume there was such as facility at Lime Street.)

Those are not the current CoC.

I believe these are.

http://www.buytickets.southwesttrains.co.uk/nationalcarriage.aspx

I do not believe an excess is appropriate. You would need a new ticket, from Wavertree to Liverpool.

It sounds to me like the NCoC requires you to pay the price of a single for the portion of the journey for which you don't hold a ticket, which is £1.90 and what you proposed to the rail staff.

Yes they do.

However, if he attempted to pass the barriers without a valid ticket, that would be a serious criminal offence of attempting to avoid payment, and Northern can use this threat to extract the £80 penalty from him.

Also not having purchased a ticket is also a strict liability offence with only limited defences, which don't appear to apply here.

 

[MikeWh]

Out of interest, if I had travelled back to my original stop could I have been fined for travelling without a ticket? Was I effectively trapped on the platform with no way of escaping a fine??!

Usually when that happens you would be given something to pass you back to your original destination which would avoid any further problems. Of course that is discretionary, but has happened lots of times in the past. I once missed Crayford and ended up at Dartford. I must have still looked asleep as the guy said "don't tell me, you fell asleep?" When I said yes, from Crayford, he asked if I wanted to go back or get the bus. I opted for the latter to avoid a half hour wait.

If things happened as you say then it does seem that you have fallen victim to Northern's current purge on fare dodgers. Perhaps the thing to do would have been just to explain what had happened first and see what they offered. If they offered a trip back and there was a reasonable wait then you could ask about the possibility of going into the town. If you asked for that straight away you might have given the wrong impression.

Harsh though it is, I'd be inclined to pay the £80 asked for. This will avoid the matter getting any worse than it is already. Once you've paid, I would then write to Northern customer services and explain the whole situation and ask if they'd consider refunding the £80. If they don't you could then consider the media, though give them a chance before uping the ante.

 

[Crossover]

My feeling is Northern may again not have been clear on the £80 fee.

I'm also thinking that if you pay up, enclose 2 cheques as per advice in the thread you linked to, along with a letter and see if Northern take pity. As far as I can tell, it'll do no harm and could lead to a better outcome for yourself

 

[Spaceflower]

Oh, in that case perhaps I misunderstood what you said earlier. Perhaps the staff at the gateline did too?


If you had travelled back, the Conductor would have either let you off or charged you for a ticket. The revenue staff you encountered have noted down the details because they suspect you of evading the fare. Northern's prosecution unit has decided against going straight for prosecution (which, if found guilty, would lead to a fine, in addition to costs & the fare due, also being payable) and instead are effectively offering you the opportunity to settle out of court for £80.

You can agree to settle, by paying the £80, or you can decline to pay it, and see if they do prosecute you or not.

Without knowing what evidence Northern have, we cannot easily advise you on what course of action you should take. It really is something you will need to decide.

But if you do not pay it, and if they do prosecute you, you would need to ensure that you get proper legal representation in Court, as not only would a successful prosecution result in a fine (+ costs & the fare) but would also result in a criminal record.

Would that proper legal representation cost money and if so and if the prosecution was unsuccessful, would Northern have to foot this bill?

 

[noddingdonkey]

Those are not the current CoC.

Thanks, NRE seem to have hidden the official version, so I went for what appeared to be the version on a different TOC's website.

 

[yorkie]

Would that proper legal representation cost money and if so and if the prosecution was unsuccessful, would Northern have to foot this bill?

Yes, and yes, it's a risk. If the OP is 100% sure it was an innocent mistake then it is perhaps a risk worth taking. But words such as "I took advantage of the situation" make me think perhaps the risk isn't worth taking. But I have no idea what was said at the time, so it really is impossible to advise.

But the last thing I want to do, is say "defend the case, you should win" and then the case is lost and the OP ends up with a large legal bill and a criminal record!

£80 is, relatively speaking, nothing. I lost £80 worth of tickets for a group of forum members recently, it happens, no big deal. OK, it's not nice to lose £80, or be charged £80 for a mistake, but let's put £80 into perspective compared to what might otherwise happen...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I will offer an estimate, that if this matter was to be contested by way of a plea of "not Guilty" in Court with papers served in anticipation of arguing a Defence, then the OP's costs would be the best part of £1k.

If that Defence failed, then the Railway Company would go on to apply for their costs to be recovered from the OP, but the decision would be made by the Court and should never be assumed; there are many interesting examples of cases which are lost (perhaps on a detailled point of law) but where costs are not awarded (illustrating that the 'win' was technical, but not punitive). Similarly, many litigants will seek an Appeal only over the costs awarded against them, and not against the Decision that went against them.

 

[Phirstman]

If you did a 'decision tree' on the court route, multiply the chances (%) of losing the case against court costs, factor in the criminal record aspect as well (couldn't even begin to factor the 'cost' of having one of these) and I'd suggest that the 'negative' NPV (Net Present Value) would be a lot higher than -£81.90.

Take the fine, accept the unfortunate error and maybe take action to get the money back later with the case settled.

 

[bb21]

Unless I've missed something here, you should have been allowed to excess your ticket as per the National Conditions of Carriage: which is what you claim to have asked to do at the ticket barrier. (I don't know whether Lime Street has ticket-selling staff on the barrier, but given that other major stations have excess fare windows or ticket buying opportunities in advance of the barrier it would not be unreasonable to assume there was such as facility at Lime Street.)

(I've edited that to avoid quoting too much here. Condition 4 relates to Penalty Fares which Northern do not operate.)

It sounds to me like the NCoC requires you to pay the price of a single for the portion of the journey for which you don't hold a ticket, which is £1.90 and what you proposed to the rail staff.

An excess fare is discretionary once you override beyond your destination. A new ticket is normally required, or a Penalty Fare if applicable.

However, TOCs reserve the right to prosecute if they suspect wrongdoing, and it is what I suspect happened here.

 

[noddingdonkey]

However, TOCs reserve the right to prosecute if they suspect wrongdoing, and it is what I suspect happened here.

I would contend that they have no such right to do anything more than sell a full-fare single or return (which the OP claims to have proposed to buy from the barrier staff). The National Conditions of Carriage are perfectly clear about what happens if you travel further than you have paid to.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

This thing about "taking advantage" of unexpectedly being in the wrong place could be quite innocent - if you know there is a long wait for the next service back then it's not unreasonable to want to do something useful with that time such as popping to the shops rather than sitting on a platform.

Having approached the barrier staff about rectifying the ticket situation they should have made arrangements for the appropriate ticket to be sold and let him on his way.

If the OP has been straight with us here in describing what has happened, it might be worthwhile seeking the advice of the Citizen's Advice Bureau. One would hope that a sensible judge/magistrate would see that Northern's actions here appear to be contrary to the NRCoC and find in his favour, but it's a big risk, and Northern know this and seem to seek to bully people into paying more than they are contractually obliged to. A letter from the CAB might be sufficient to get them to drop the matter.

 

[snail]

I would contend that they have no such right to do anything more than sell a full-fare single or return (which the OP claims to have proposed to buy from the barrier staff). The National Conditions of Carriage are perfectly clear about what happens if you travel further than you have paid to.

Yes they are. You are treated as being without a ticket for the journey past the destination on your ticket. As Northern don't operate Penalty Fares Condition 2 will apply.

How do you interpret that as qualifying for an excess fare?

 

[island]

A person who has no ticket for the journey he made is liable to prosecution under section 18 of the railway bye-laws if he is challenged to produce one.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

However, TOCs reserve the right to prosecute if they suspect wrongdoing, and it is what I suspect happened here.

I would contend that they have no such right to do anything more than sell a full-fare single or return (which the OP claims to have proposed to buy from the barrier staff). The National Conditions of Carriage are perfectly clear about what happens if you travel further than you have paid to. . . . . .

This situation is captured by Section 103 of the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act

103 Penalty on Passengers practising Frauds on the Company.

If any Person knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect, on arriving at the Point to which he has paid his Fare, to quit such Carriage, every such Person shall for every such Offence forfeit a Sum not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale.

 

[michael769]

Knowingly an willfully would not fly if the accused was asleep. One wonders what proof the TOC would be in a position to tender that the accused was awake at the point to which he had paid a fare,

 

[crosscity]

At the end of the day, a passenger needs to take responsibility for themselves. Should train companies be effectively giving free travel to people who can't keep track of when to get off?

This is fair enough, but £80 seems harsh.

In the 70's I was given a Rubik's cube and was so completely engrossed with it that I missed getting off at Longbridge on my journey home from Bournville. I got off at Barnt Green and went up to the man selling tickets there and explained what had happened, and he just said "get on the next train back to Longbridge". I said "don't I need to pay something?", and he said "No, but don't do it again".

If the same thing happened now but on the same journey as the OP, I would have done exactly the same thing - put myself at the mercy of the first official I saw at Lime St. What else could you do, without it looking as though you were trying to evade the fare?

I was mortified at the time, and my only consideration was that having been stupid, I wanted the situation resolved quickly and with the least pain.

 

[soil]

I think you maybe have to read between the lines though. The OP rather than going back on the next train, which presumably would have been within a few minutes, given the frequency of services and the fact that he was going shopping (what time did this occur?), appears to have decided that he was quite happy being in Liverpool after all, which was unfortunate given that he didn't have a ticket to get there. The claim of having fallen asleep is therefore questionable by a guard, magistrate, or whomever.

 

[bnm]

In the 70's I was given a Rubik's cube

Must've been an illegally imported one from communist Hungary. They weren't licensed and didn't go on sale in the West until mid 1980.