Northern Rail Help - Attempting to leave Manchester Vic without ticket

[Billyboy204]

Hi,

I'm totally new to these boards and am hoping some of you may be able to help me make sense of my current situation. I had an encounter at Manchester Victoria today that has left me quite shaken and I'm now really panicking about how things will unfold.

To begin with, I initially boarded the 14:50 Northern Rail service from Rochdale to Manchester Victoria. As I was running late and carrying a lot of heavy luggage I simply boarded the train without a ticket. I'll admit I do this quite often as I simply find it easier to purchase a ticket from an inspector and as I only ever alight at Manchester which is barricaded, I have to buy a ticket at some point regardless. Anyway as no inspector was present on the train, I simply queued up when I arrived at Manchester to purchase a ticket from the inspectors at the barriers. My bank card was declined on my first attempt to do so however but as I've often had trouble with Northern Rail's portable card readers before, I wasn't too fussed and thought I'd just try again a few times. As there were a few people waiting behind me however I stood to one side and waited until everyone else had been seen to before trying again. As it was cold and I was stood waiting for quite a while, one of the inspectors suggested that I should try purchasing from the main ticket stand in the station.

On her advice, I made my way over and tried purchasing from the main stand however my card was declined again. At this point I became a little worried but reasoned that the chip on my card must be acting up as the card was quite old and this had happened a few times before. I then asked the woman behind the counter where the nearest cash machine was located and she directed me to the Co-op machine located opposite McDonalds up the stairs in the MEN arena. Whilst I was talking to her my phone began ringing in my pocket but as I was engaged I missed the call. When I had finished talking to her my phone started ringing again but I didn't recognise the number. As I was expecting an important call from a shop I had made an enquiry about in Manchester however I reasoned that it must have been them and so answered the phone. As the station was relatively loud and I had to take the call, without thinking I headed out the nearest exit on my left onto the main taxi stand outside Victoria and started pacing. At this point a man suddenly confronted me and started waving an ID badge in my face and asking me where my ticket was. As he was wearing plain clothes with no company markings and was quite in my face, I was really quite befuddled at first and simply waved him off thinking he was just someone messing around. He then became really insistent that I follow him into the station and kept accusing me of wilfully "leaving the premises" after having my card declined twice. I then informed him that I was going to make my way to the Co-op cash machine but had just stepped outside to take a call because of the noise inside. As he was really dismissive and wouldn't listen to a word I was saying and because I was quite riled up at the time anyway, I became quite argumentative with him and told him that I was going to pay the ticket so he should calm down. He then began threatening me with police action and as I wanted to avoid any further escalation I followed him into the station where he passed me onto his colleague. Both of them kept asking why I had ventured outside and I kept trying to explain that I was simply taking a phone call and had no intention of making off without purchasing a ticket. I kept offering to have them accompany me to the cash machine where I would then purchase such but they simply told me that they were going to make a report on what I had said and that they needed to take some details. I then passed on my legitimate name, address etc... which they confirmed and was simply expecting to be issued with a failed to pay receipt. I was then told that Northern Rail would contact me by letter and that I should supply my account of the incident. I repeatedly asked both the rail workers what such action would lead to and where this was headed but they both kept avoiding the question and simply told me to respond to the letter. Thinking nothing of it, I've now come home and calmed down but after recalling the incident and googling Northern rail's policies online, I've become increasingly panicked that I'm going to get prosecuted and it's really taking its toll. I can't focus on anything at all and it's just totally ruined my whole day. The annoying thing is is that I was genuinely going to withdraw cash and pay for my ticket. It's only £4 !! Whilst I forgot to at the time, I feel I should have pointed out that had I genuinely wanted to avoid paying my fare, I could have easily attempted to slip out the main entrance or alternative taxi entrance when first told to pay at the box office as I was out of the line of sight of the first set of inspectors and there was a group of people milling about in between us. Additionally, I could have attempted to exit via one of the MEN arena exits upstairs where no one would have noticed but I didn't attempt to do either. Instead I attempted to pay a second time.

I apologise for rambling on so much but my head's all over the place at the minute. I was hoping someone could please advise me how this is likely to play out and what I'm going to be up against. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Again sorry for the long windedness.

Kind regards x

 

[GadgetMan]

When you get the letter and reply, in your shoes I would leave out the crap about the phone call. It is irrelevant and just comes across as a pathetic excuse that is very convenient.

You travelled on a train having skipped an opportunity to pay before boarding the train.

You then failed to pay when offered an opportunity at Manchester as your card got declined. This may not necessarily be down to your card, depending on the ticket machine being used it may be down to the equipment. As you admit yourself you often have problems paying for rail tickets with your card it would have been a good idea to have a back up card or cash.

The staff then gave you the benefit of doubt and allowed you to pop to the cash point to withdraw some cash, they didn't have to as you'd already committed an offence by then of failing to purchase before boarding. In their eyes you then headed for the exit rather than the cash point. This will have annoyed the staff and all discretion will then have gone out the window and I would pretty safely guess the decision to report you for fare evasion had already been made by then.

You mention you were 'expecting' to be issued with a failed to pay notice. Have you had one or something similar before?

You'll have to wait for the letter to arrive, if you are lucky they may offer you a fixed £80 + fare figure to settle out of court for a first offence. Or they may ask you for your version of events before deciding how to deal with it.

 

[Billyboy204]

The thing is, I was actively engaged in a phone call when I was confronted and I'm assuming the staff member involved was aware of such as I kept pointing it out to him and had to finish the call before I could respond properly. I'll take your advice though and leave it out if you think it'll help. But I don't understand how I should respond to the fact that I made for the exit as I'm assuming they'l want an explanation for such and the honest truth was to answer a call ??

The other thing is that I attempted to pay twice at two different stations. Like I said I didn't attempt to make off as soon as I was allowed past the barriers but went straight to the main ticket office when I could have easily wandered out. I asked the woman at the main office herself where the nearest cash machine was after the second declined payment just to avoid more hassle. And when I say I was expecting a notice, its happened to me once before when travelling to Leeds. My card got declined on the train and the inspector politely informed me that he acknowledged I had attempted to pay but as I had no other means of payment, this was standard practice and I should simply send a cheque to the given address. He was really nice about it and apologised for his equipment playing up. I've never had any problems before in this regard and normally just pay at the alighting station if I have to. I apologise for my naivety but I didn't realise that failure to pay prior to boarding was such a big issue. Thanks a lot for the response though, I suppose I'll just have to suck it up and hope for a fixed figure.

 

[GadgetMan]

I'm sure somebody else more knowledgeable will be along shortly as I'm not sure what a failure to pay notice implies. If it's used as a warning for first time offences then you may be dealt with more harshly as this would then become the second time you've been detected for ticketless travel.

If you're only reason to exit was to take a phonecall then obviously it would need to be mentioned when explaining your version of events, but it doesn't need to go into a full page of details about it being an important call from a shop which had already miss called you etc. As far as the railway is concerned it may just put your actions into context but the importance or substance of the phonecall is irrelevant unless ofcourse it was a genuine life or death emergency.

 

[455driver]

The problem would appear to be that the exit the OP used did not take him towards the cashpoint!

 

[Billyboy204]

Lol of course. I'm sorry for going into such irrelevant detail, I just kept writing continuously and went off on a tangent. I didn't want it to seem like a fake excuse to leave the station. But yeah basically I received a phone call and made my way outside to better answer.

I'm just curious though, do you think the fact that I attempted to pay twice will have any bearing on the situation or will they simply view it that I failed to pay prior to boarding and subsequently attempted to leave the station not in possession of a ticket ? I know I keep restating it but I could have attempted to leave as soon as I was let past the barriers but I didn't. I'd like to think this somewhat weakens the notion that I had the "intent" to fare dodge. Thanks for your input again though GadgetMan.

The problem would appear to be that the exit the OP used did not take him towards the cashpoint!

Yeah that's what I'm scared of pretty much. I'll be honest I did it without thinking, I took the phone call and instinctively headed outside to hear better.

 

[GadgetMan]

Best bet is to just wait for the letter now and then post back on here with the details. No point worrying or speculating until the company make their intention clear.

The letter can take upto 2 or 3 months so you'll have to be patient.

 

[455driver]

Wait and see what the letter (which can take a few months) says, Northern are starting to get tough on fare evaders (you need to buy before getting on the train) but a first offence seems they normally ask for your version of events and as long as that is satisfactory they then make an offer of £80ish towards their admin fees plus the fare evaded, they dont go "silly" with court etc in the first instance so try not to worry about it.

Until the letter turns up there isnt much you can do and Northern do seem to be reasonable with a "first offence" so the massage gets out there but I would recommend you ensure you buy before travelling now.

 

[snail]

If you are asked to give your version of events think about how it will read to the person receiving it. If it was you, would you think 'taking an urgent call from a shop' a valid reason to ignore the matter in hand, which was getting money to pay for your ticket?

To the RPI I think it will have looked like you said you were going to the cash machine then pulled out your phone and walked to an exit in the opposite direction. Not good.

You need to be very careful not to incriminate yourself further when you eventually respond to Northern. Stick to the relevant facts
- don't tell them your card has been declined before (if it has, why didn't you have cash just in case)
- don't tell them you frequently board without a ticket (read the posters on Rochdale station and the trains warning you not to do this)
- don't tell them what you could have done to avoid paying the fare (makes it look like you have done this before)

 

[tony6499]

Don't you need to pass the ticket office at Rochdale to reach the platforms ?

 

[Flamingo]

Lol of course. I'm sorry for going into such irrelevant detail, I just kept writing continuously and went off on a tangent. I didn't want it to seem like a fake excuse to leave the station. But yeah basically I received a phone call and made my way outside to better answer.

I'm just curious though, do you think the fact that I attempted to pay twice will have any bearing on the situation or will they simply view it that I failed to pay prior to boarding and subsequently attempted to leave the station not in possession of a ticket ? I know I keep restating it but I could have attempted to leave as soon as I was let past the barriers but I didn't. I'd like to think this somewhat weakens the notion that I had the "intent" to fare dodge. Thanks for your input again though

Or the fact that you used a card that you knew (or at least suspected) would be declined would be seen as pretty damning. If it didn't work once, chances are it won't work a second time.

It's a very common fare dodge, give the impression of co-operating but with a card that won't work.

 

[neilmc]

As an aside, if the OP had actually left railway premises and was on a public highway at the time, does an RPI have any jurisdiction here or was just relying on the fact that most people will meekly follow?

 

[island]

I'm not sure what kind of "jurisdiction" you think they may or may not have.

 

[neilmc]

I'm not sure what kind of "jurisdiction" you think they may or may not have.

Well, if you're no longer on railway premises can't you simply refuse to have anything to do with them and threaten them with assault if they touch you or try to get you back into the station or maybe accuse them of impersonating a police officer since only a police officer would have the right to thrust an ID card in your face on a public highway and insist you follow him?

 

[tony6499]

Well, if you're no longer on railway premises can't you simply refuse to have anything to do with them and threaten them with assault if they touch you or try to get you back into the station or maybe accuse them of impersonating a police officer since only a police officer would have the right to thrust an ID card in your face on a public highway and insist you follow him?

Which would make things hundred times worse for yourself as you would have shown that avoiding your fare was the plan all along.

Go back with the RPI shows you intend to settle or sort things out.

 

[jb]

Well, if you're no longer on railway premises can't you simply refuse to have anything to do with them and threaten them with assault if they touch you or try to get you back into the station or maybe accuse them of impersonating a police officer since only a police officer would have the right to thrust an ID card in your face on a public highway and insist you follow him?

Nah, you need to get to the state line before them there smokeys'll stop chasin' ya.

 

[island]

Well, if you're no longer on railway premises can't you simply refuse to have anything to do with them and threaten them with assault if they touch you or try to get you back into the station or maybe accuse them of impersonating a police officer since only a police officer would have the right to thrust an ID card in your face on a public highway and insist you follow him?

You can do that on a station too as all TOCs instruct their staff not to attempt to use their power of detention.

I don't think that power, if it were to be exercised, ends at the station door however.

 

[455driver]

Well, if you're no longer on railway premises can't you simply refuse to have anything to do with them and threaten them with assault if they touch you or try to get you back into the station or maybe accuse them of impersonating a police officer since only a police officer would have the right to thrust an ID card in your face on a public highway and insist you follow him?

Ah the "I know my rights" line, pity people forget about the responsibilities that go with those rights! :roll:

 

[michael769]

Well, if you're no longer on railway premises can't you simply refuse to have anything to do with them and threaten them with assault if they touch you or try to get you back into the station or maybe accuse them of impersonating a police officer since only a police officer would have the right to thrust an ID card in your face on a public highway and insist you follow him?

Yes you could refuse to have anything to do with them, as you could in the station, and in either instance they could arrest you using the "any person" powers of arrest. (Though they probably would not as I believe their employers instruct them not to) they could also call the police (very likely especially in a larger station if they are to hand) who would probably be minded to view your behaviour as suspicious (and a failure of the "Attitude Test") and obstructive and they would probably detain you for several hours while the sorted out what was going on.

You could threaten them with assault, but the. the police would definitely be called and you would be arrested and charged with a far more serious public order offence.

OK OK know that what you meant is not what you said.... You could try accusing them of assault or impersonating the police, it would give them and any police officer who arrived a very good laugh at your expense. If they were impolite they would probably ask you if you have been reading the 'Freeman of the Land' claptrap, I am afraid to say that the offences of assult and impersonating a police officer are not what you seem to think they are!

 

[Ferret]

The fact that the OP admits that his phone call was far more important than complying with the law of the land tells me all I need to know. As such, I hope that they are prosecuted for the more serious offence of intent to avoid the rail fare, and receive a most justified criminal record.

I've no problem with assisting people who post on these threads normally, but the breathtaking arrogance of this OP really takes the biscuit.

 

[455driver]

Buying a ticket before travelling for one!

 

[175001]

Don't you need to pass the ticket office at Rochdale to reach the platforms ?

Yes you do. It's an island platform style station. The ticket office has a self service machine in the vicinity of the ticket office too.

 

[tony6499]

Yes you do. It's an island platform style station. The ticket office has a self service machine in the vicinity of the ticket office too.

I thought you did but it's been a while since I've been there, so the OP walked past a ticket office and a ticket machine.

 

[alanf]

he dissapeared off the platform and has probably like most of the people on here asking the same questions will dissapear off this thread

Alan

 

[185143]

Don't you need to pass the ticket office at Rochdale to reach the platforms ?

Yes, you do

 

[Billyboy204]

The fact that the OP admits that his phone call was far more important than complying with the law of the land tells me all I need to know. As such, I hope that they are prosecuted for the more serious offence of intent to avoid the rail fare, and receive a most justified criminal record.

I've no problem with assisting people who post on these threads normally, but the breathtaking arrogance of this OP really takes the biscuit.

Yes I freely admit I walked past both the ticket office and self service machine as I wasn't prompted by the ticket issuer. I'll be honest I was in a bit of a hurry and carrying a large rucksack, a duffel bag and another bag in my other hand and just thought it would be easier to deal with on the train. I'll also admit I do this when there's a chance I may miss a train, its always just been common practice to jump on a train knowing I can buy a ticket from an inspector or failing that, one at Manchester Victoria. I used to think that it didn't matter as a ticket was getting bought at some point during the journey so it didn't matter where. Obviously this incident has stressed the importance of always buying first which I will do from now on simply to avoid any future problems.

Additionally, I didn't refuse to follow the inspector as that would have only validated what he was accusing me of and as frustrated as I was, I couldn't really fault him as he was simply doing his job.

With regards to the phone call, I didn't necessarily think it was "more important". It was an instinctive reaction to the noise in the station. In hindsight, it was very poor judgement on my part but an honest mistake and not an attempt to evade paying my fare. Again I had no "intent" to leave the station without paying. I was genuinely going to attempt to withdraw cash from the Co-op machine and buy a ticket. It was only £4 anyway and not like I was going to save a fortune if I'd made a run for it. I apologise if I came across as arrogant, I can assure you that was not my intent and I hope you can take my word for it. You are obviously entitled to your opinion though (no sarcasm).

I used the same card as I didn't have an alternative method of payment. I only have one debit card.

At the time I was quite frustrated as I felt I had done nothing wrong as I knew myself that I would have bought the ticket. When looking at the situation objectively as it would appear to Northern Rail, I can now see how it can obviously be construed as attempting to fare dodge. I'm hoping then that someone could tell me from my account how likely it is that further action will be taken beyond the standard £80+ fine bearing in mind this is a first offence. I appreciate all input given thus far.

Thanks x

(Btw sorry for the disjointedness, I don't know how to multiple quote in a single post. I tried to address all points made)

 

[455driver]

It might have "only been £4 anyway" but how many £4 fares do Northern lose to ticket fraud (or "thought I could buy on the train and the ticket man didnt come round)"?

It isnt the TOCs job to make sure you buy the correct fare it is up to you, and if you dont you can be penalised.

Just wait for the letter and see what it says, the fact you have been courteous and compliant will go in your favour but you are still guilty of not buying before travel, when the letter arrives there are many people on here (not me ) that can advise you in your reply.

 

[Billyboy204]

It might have "only been £4 anyway" but how many £4 fares do Northern lose to ticket fraud (or "thought I could buy on the train and the ticket man didnt come round)"?

It isnt the TOCs job to make sure you buy the correct fare it is up to you, and if you dont you can be penalised.

Just wait for the letter and see what it says, the fact you have been courteous and compliant will go in your favour but you are still guilty of not buying before travel, when the letter arrives there are many people on here (not me ) that can advise you in your reply.

If I'm being honest though I was initially quite argumentative with the person who confronted me. As he was wearing normal clothes with nothing distinguishing, I initially thought it was a joke or someone messing about. When he became more insistent and frantic I then responded in kind. I'm quite loud and boisterous normally and whilst I was respectful in that I didn't insult him or use curse words, I'm scared I came across as quite intimidating when trying to make my point. I'd calmed down when his second colleague took my details and heard me out and was polite and co-operative with her but obviously first impressions count. Thanks for the advice regardless

 

[455driver]

If he was in plain clothes then it can be expected (up to a point) but the fact you calmed down (quite quickly?) will still go in your favour I think.

Did you apologise to him after?

Just wait for the letter.

 

[Billyboy204]

No he totally vanished as soon as he passed me on. I thanked his colleague but he wasn't around at all and I didn't see him after the initial confrontation. Anyway yeah I'm going to try and put it out of my mind until the letter arrives.