Fare Evasion Appreciate any help/advice!!

[Wallamu11]

Hi guys, I am new to this forum and what i've already read by the posts on here i'd really appreciate some advice with regards to my current predicament I'm in. Ok so I was in a rush to University and was waiting for my usual train which goes direct to the station (Preston) without stopping at any other stations. Well on the day in question my train i usually catch was delayed by 40mins, however I noticed there was a another train due to leave in a couple of mins that stopped at my station also after it had stopped at other stations along the way (Euxton & Leyland). (I dont normally get this train as it quite a lot slower train that runs this service and also stops at the pre mentioned stations) however as I did not want to wait 40mins for my original train I ran and managed to just get on the other train not buying a ticket at my departing station (Wigan) as i rushed for the train.

Anyway I was waiting for a conductor to come so I could buy a ticket on the train, however one did not appear so I arrived at Preston without a ticket. Upon arrival I approached the ticket inspector and asked to buy a ticket as I did not have one and I wished to pay by my debit card, he asked me where i travelled from and STUPIDLY I said "Leyland". I said this with very little thought as on this day I was only getting a single to University as I was getting a lift home so thought i could save myself some money by getting a ticket from Leyland, stupid I know!! Anyway the Inspector asked me did i live in Leyland so I replied "No" and he then proceeded to ask me where i lived and why was i travelling from Leyland station, so even more stupidly I told him I stayed at a friends in Leyland so then got the train that morning. The Conductor then said "Ahh" and started to write down what I had said in a notebook, he then asked me for my name and address and then wrote these in the notebook also.

By this time I was starting to get worried as this has never happened to me before so I asked him why he needs all these details and can I get my ticket. He then got a phone out and rang up to check my name and address seeing if it was correct as I had no I.D to show him for proof of what I had said. After he had done this I asked him why he needed all these details and he said he didnt believe me that I had travelled from Leyland and my story did not add up. He then looked at me and said "So..your sticking with you travelled from Leyland?" At this point I was soo nervous and worried I decided to confess and said "Right I'm really sorry I travelled from Wigan not Leyland". He then said Ok and asked me why I said Leyland and my response was I was trying to save myself a bit of money as I was only getting a single before, I apologised and said that I dont normally get that train and always pay full fare for all my journeys (which I honestly always do!!) and that I acted foolishly telling him this Leyland. I offered to pay the full fare from Wigan and I was sorry to waste his time by being dishonest to him at the station. He then replied "Its going to cost you a lot more now" and then told me how I dont need to buy a ticket now and to go on my way normally and I will hear off Northern with a letter through the post in the next 6 weeks.

Ok so if you have read up to here thanks for reading and any comments/advice/opinions/suggestions on what may happen or the circumstances would be Greatly appreciated.

What i keep thinking is.. How did the Inspector know I hadnt travelled from Leyland? If i had kept to my story that I had travelled from Leyland could it have been proved I hadnt? Would they have checked the CCTV cameras or rang the station?

Also in a few months I am due to fly to America for an internship working in sports coaching. I am absolutely terrified that what I have done will have serious repercussions such as a criminal record for myself which could deny me entry into the US. Does anyone have any idea on the probability of a criminal record being issued for a case like mine?

I am yet to receive the letter from Northern and it has now been 3 weeks, I am wondering if the Inspector has forgot to send the letter or will it take a while to reach me? I have heard that up to 6 weeks isnt abnormal and I all I can do is wait. If I do receive a letter does anyone have any advice what I should do??

 

[Qwerty133]

as far as i can tell you have admitted intent to the train company so you will be looking at a fine and a criminal record.

 

[Ferret]

as far as i can tell you have admitted intent to the train company so you will be looking at a fine and a criminal record.

I agree! If I was the OP, I'd keep it out of Court!

 

[Wallamu11]

What else is there I could of done after he started with his suspicions? Would the repercussions of been worse if I had not admitted I got on at Wigan instead of Leyland?? How did the inspector know i didnt get on where I said guys any ideas?

 

[DelayRepay]

Maybe there was a plain clothes inspector on the train?
Maybe another passenger reported you?
Maybe there was an inspector checking tickets at Layland, so they knew you couldn't have travelled without a ticket from there?
Maybe he has seen you getting on/off the fast train (which does not stop at Layland) previously?
Maybe you just look like a liar?
To be honest I expect it is not unusual for someone to tell the inspector they boarded at the closest station. It must look unusual when that person then gives an address further down the line.
In any case I understand that Layland has ticket purchasing facilities so you would still have committed an offence.

 

[Wallamu11]

Ok so what has been said is im looking at a criminal record? I cannot let this happen guys! It would wreck my whole career and maybe even life!! What can I do in this scenario to avoid this? I havent had the letter off Northern yet, shall i ring them and say what happened and apologise?? The inspector did not get me to sign any of his notebook when he did the statement or didnt read me my rights does this affect anything?

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe the first thing to do is to calm down. Until Northern Rail write to you informing you of what they're doing next and more specifically what they're charging you with, if they are at all (this first letter might just be asking for your version of events), I don't think it would be wise to make contact. I know it might be hard to hear but you're going to have to wait. I do not think ringing Northern Rail is the best course of action.

For your information there are two main pieces of legislation used to prosecute those who are accused of fare evasion. The one that seems most likely to be used in this case is the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5. Were such a prosecution to be successful (and from what you've said I think it might well be) you would likely be fined and receive a criminal record.

It is possible that, once you know what Northern are planning, you could prevent this by writing to them stating that your sorry, you've realised that you've made a huge mistake, that you'll never do anything like this again and that you'd happily pay for the fare outstanding and any administrative costs they've encountered in dealing with this. In our experience writing a letter along those lines often gets a positive outcome but it is by no means guaranteed and is very unlikely if you've been caught previously (I'm not saying you've done this before but it's something to keep in mind).

And again I wouldn't suggest writing such a letter until you've heard from them and know where you stand.

 

[Wallamu11]

Thanks ainsworth74 Im just going to wait for this letter to arrive now and I'll post again if and when it does, is it ever possible that the inspector simply "forgets" to send the letter? Thanks all for your input!!

 

[DelayRepay]

Thanks ainsworth74 Im just going to wait for this letter to arrive now and I'll post again if and when it does, is it ever possible that the inspector simply "forgets" to send the letter? Thanks all for your input!!

Anything is possible but I think it's unlikely that they will forget about it, to be honest.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . is it ever possible that the inspector simply "forgets" to send the letter?

It happens, but only exceptionally.
And not nearly as often as passengers forgetting at which station they boarded when travelling without a ticket. Please consider the context: the Railways loose thousands of pounds a week through fare evasion, and one of the most frequently identified combination of factors which lead to successful prosecution is, a) passenger cannot provide a ticket, plus b) passenger names a journey origin which is closer to their destination than the station at which they actually boarded. *
That combination of two errors occurs hundreds of times a week and it becomes increasingly hard to understand how a Defence against a claim of intent to avoid payment could succeed.

However, you have asked for help; I can tell you that there are some legal professionals who are happy to contest even the most obvious examples of fare evasion and have a surprisingly good track record. They will charge around £3000 to £6000 for their, ahem, expert services.
There are also many examples of passengers protesting their innocence in Court, and many escape with little or no penalty (and many others find they have just incurred higher costs - solicitors and prosecution witnesses don't appear for free).
There are others who can assist in negotiating a settlement - often a very simple and straingtforward arrangement (which an articulate passenger should be able to do themselves without incriminating themselves in the process), it remains possible that you might avoid conviction following some persuasive and committed negotiation.
But, . . . .
it appears to me that you might already, and quite unnecessarily, have incriminated yourself as having committed the RORA S.5 offence of travel with the intention to avoid payment (for the avoidance of doubt, 'intent' in law does not have its every-day meaning, but is understood from a person's actions and words).

In terms of any entries in the Police National Computer which might, or might not, be relevant to a visa application to enter the USA; much might depend on the timing. You do not have a conviction until you are, er, convicted.

Sorry that this is not what you'll have wanted to read.

* You have asked twice how the Inspector 'knew' that you didn't board at the station which you (wrongly) stated as your journey origin. Several Railway Companies, in their committed pursuit of Fare Evaders, employ a number of strategies, and do so fully prepared to gather robust evidence which supports the available statute and case law available to them. For your own sake, please do not place too much hope on a weakness in the Company's evidence-gathering procedures. There may be an error or omission, but please don't count on it.

 

[142094]

Slam dunk case IMO, expect to pay a good amount of money to keep it out of court.

 

[ian959]

Slam dunk case IMO, expect to pay a good amount of money to keep it out of court.

More than slam dunk I would think and this would surely be one of those instances where the TOC might well have such a cast iron case that they will want to take it to court? From what the OP says I cannot see any mitigating circumstances to help his case.

As to why the inspector knew you were lying? Probably because they hear and see people trying this all the time and they get a very, very good sixth sense about these things simply because of experience and reading body language.

The criminal conviction from an RORA offence should not result in you being denied entry into the USA. It is a misdemeanor offence and they don't routinely deny entry for misdemeanors. But equally under US law, they can refuse you a visa for even the most trivial of reasons and a criminal offence is hardly a trivial reason. I know people who have been refused entry to the US for such seemingly trivial reasons, whilst others I know have still gained entry to the US despite having drug offences on their records.

From the description of events at Wigan, it would seem that you did have not a ticket for your originally intended train journey? If that is the case, would that suggest a normal situation for you is to board a train without a ticket? If so, then you seemingly breach the railway bye-laws knowingly every single time you travel this route. Perhaps you should have thought of the consequences of that before then lying to the inspector resulting in not just a bye-law breach but a legislative breach.

 

[island]

As you chose not to purchase a ticket at your origin station, you have committed an offence. Lying to the railway officer about your origin in an attempt to pay less than your proper fare was a further and more serious offence. Unlike some of the other posters here, you have not proceeded to panic and give someone else's details due perhaps to being on medication or distracted by exams, which would have been a further offence.

If admission to the USA is a concern of yours, then I echo Dave in that a conviction for evading the fare on the railway with intent need not bar you from this, although it may affect your ability to use the Visa Waiver Program. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude for a list of crimes considered to be detrimental to admission chances (and before anybody says "oh, don't believe Wikipedia", the relevant section is taken directly from the US Department of Foreign Affairs).

We have read of a number of people who have committed similar offences and have convinced the train operating company involved not to take them to court by agreeing a payment towards the company's costs in detecting and preventing them. A common sum with Northern Rail is £80 plus the fare.

 

[142094]

More than slam dunk I would think and this would surely be one of those instances where the TOC might well have such a cast iron case that they will want to take it to court? From what the OP says I cannot see any mitigating circumstances to help his case.

TBH, I would like to see all TOCs take more cases to court, and use the full scope of the laws that are available. When Merseryrail started clamping down on byelaws such as putting feet on seats, that was a step in the right direction (even if a few judges thought the cases were spurious). People shouldn't treat the railway with contempt.

 

[sarahj]

Its sometimes very simple to catch someone lying, and many are crap at it.
EG. Once waiting at hove station with a hove to brighton shuttle. Pass gets off littlehampton to london train and come right up to me to buy ticket. Coversation went like this:
Can I buy a ticket?
Yes, where from?
Hove
I just watched you get off the littlehampton train, try again
Aldrington
That train does not stop at Aldrington, try again
Errr
Ummm
Shoreham
Thats better, single or return.

By the way, its no good sitting down on a train that might have 8 coaches plus and expecting someone to come round in 15 mins. If you realy wanted to buy a ticket, you would look for the guard before you board and make your way there.

Instead you sat there
Then lied to the inspector at your destination.

If you realy did not want a criminal record the way to avoid one was in your power, you just decided to wing it and hope for the best. You might get away with a begging letter and the offer of cash, but I've no sympathy for you.

 

[snail]

If admission to the USA is a concern of yours, then I echo Dave in that a conviction for evading the fare on the railway with intent need not bar you from this, although it may affect your ability to use the Visa Waiver Program.

It almost certainly will. But the OP intends to travel for an internship so will be looking for a visa anyway. The awkward part will be the timing, as a court case could easily take several months to set up so they may be convicted in their absence. You are supposed to declare arrests as well as convictions, but in these circumstances there is usually a caution but no arrest. How a conviction passed while in the US would affect their continuing presence in the US I don't know.

This may be of a little help to show how serious a criminal record can be, including the important fact that they never get 'spent':
http://london.usembassy.gov/add_crime.html.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

By the way, its no good sitting down on a train that might have 8 coaches plus and expecting someone to come round in 15 mins. If you realy wanted to buy a ticket, you would look for the guard before you board and make your way there.

In defence of the OP, I've never known the Liverpool-Blackpool Northern service to be more than a 2-coach unit (usually a 150 or 156), and Northern guards at times do have a habit of not even making their way through the train, be it because of a defective Avantix (as was the case on the train I was on the other day) or it being too busy. I'm certain this forum has had the debate of whether the passenger is required to track down an RPI / guard to buy a ticket a million times over...

 

[sarahj]

Perhaps, but if the OP was realy wanting a ticket, then on even a 2 car train, it would have taken very little time to go and find the conductor, bought the ticket and had piece of mind.

I of course work on trains in a PF area and find that passengers who realy want a ticket will come and find you, esp on trains with short times between stations. Some will sit down at the far end of the train on the off chance you will not make it to them on time and then moan when a RPI catches them. But the guard never came though!!!!

 

[Wallamu11]

Hi guys thankyou for all your responses, I know you dont have to reply and i appreciate all of your time in giving your opinions on this matter! So on what I have read what I need to do is on reply to the letter I could be recieving off N.R offer my deepest apologies and let them know that I am truly sorry for this matter and it was a stupid mistake at the time. I know these incidences cost the company money and I am more than willing to pay them any costs I have incurred for my actions and will of course pay compensation for the ticket.

On the day in question would it of helped my case if I would of bought a ticket for the journey I made? Just the Inspector just told me to be on my way and not bother to buy a ticket.

Thanks

 

[Crossover]

On the day in question would it of helped my case if I would of bought a ticket for the journey I made? Just the Inspector just told me to be on my way and not bother to buy a ticket.

Thanks

You'd have been far better off not lying to the inspector in saying you got on somewhere other than Wigan. Yes, you should have still purchased before boarding, but doing that, at worst you'd have only got done for not having a ticket to travel and not making it worse by having it noted down that you tried to get away with a cheaper ticket in the first place. At best, you may have been sold the single ticket you needed and been on your way.

In either case, you wouldn't have had to invent more stories to cover up previous untrue stories which now seems to have given Northern good scope for an intent to avoid payment of the fare prosecution

 

[Wallamu11]

So.. im getting kind of worried now, it has been like 5 weeks since the incident happened and I have still not had my letter asking me for my version of events/intent to prosecute etc.. Should i ring them and explain the matter? I definately gave them the correct adress as they checked it via the phone. I just want this matter over with or to know whats happening at least as the wait is killing me!! how long do these things take? Im worried it could be a more serious matter as its taking longer to come to me.

 

[MikeWh]

It has been known to take six weeks or more to get the letter out. Rather than an indication of the seriousness of your issue, the delay is probably an indication of the workload of the prosecutions department,

 

[Ferret]

Judging by the sheer number of threads on this forum, I'd say that the rail company is a little snowed under with fare evaders at the moment! It may be some weeks yet!

 

[jon0844]

And yet it's one area where people don't seem to moan about there not being enough staff!

 

[Ferret]

And yet it's one area where people don't seem to moan about there not being enough staff!

Give it time, and those that work in the Prosecution department will be saying just that!

 

[Wallamu11]

Hi guys so it has been 9/10 weeks since the incident happened and im really getting worried now as the letter asking me for the events hasnt arrived, do i ring the TC and explain the situation? Im worried the letter may of got lost in the post or something and i dont want them to think i'd just ignore it!! I cant be prosecuted as it would ruin my life so need a way to hopefully settle out of court.

 

[michael769]

Hi guys so it has been 9/10 weeks since the incident happened and im really getting worried now as the letter asking me for the events hasnt arrived, do i ring the TC and explain the situation?

It can take a few months to arrive.

 

[BackSeatDriver]

What else is there I could of done after he started with his suspicions? Would the repercussions of been worse if I had not admitted I got on at Wigan instead of Leyland?? How did the inspector know i didnt get on where I said guys any ideas?

Leyland Station has a Revenue officer based there !! the Guy who stopped you at the Exit on platforms 7 is no stranger to this little avoidance trick he was not on his own and his colleague would have been listening to your STORY and phoned the officer at Leyland to ask if you had boarded YOU didn't cause they would have had a revenue exercise on at Leyland no one would have boarded a train without a valid ticket OR you would have been given a specially printed voucher dated with a code word so with out you knowing !! leaving Preston station via Plt 7 without a ticket you would have be watched alighing the train phone calls being made during this time to each officer.. the first thing you say is LEYLAND you have dropped yourself in it they will get you again and again to confirm you saying Leyland this is called a short fare offense defrauding the TOC and every honest paying customer and tax payer.. You have simply been caught !!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Irrelevant to the matter, but more out of interest if the above was to happen, what if the passenger had entered via the car park entrance at Leyland? I assume the revenue officer is in the booking hall or at that area? Unless there is more than one, which must be a relative waste of resources at somewhere the size and busyness of Leyland.

 

[Wallamu11]

So its now been around 3 months since the incident, I think its either time to start panicking as either i havent received the letter for some strange reason.. or they just aint sending one, I hope i dont receive just a random court summons through my door or something? seems this letter is taking ages for me compared to other posts