London to Leicester

[derby]

Hello everyone.

I am travelling to Leicester on Friday and have a zones 1 to 6 season ticket on my Oyster card.

Would the following combinations of SDR Anytime Day Returns with 16-25 Railcard...

Boundary Zone 6 to Harlington (£14.50)
Harlington to Kettering (£12.00 - min fare)
Kettering to Leicester (£12.00 - min fare)

Total £38.50

.... be valid on the 07:55 London St Pancras to Leicester fast service? And similarly on any fast service returning the same day?

Secondly if anyone can also recommend any cheaper combos that would be cool.

James.

 

[yorkie]

Yes that's absolutely valid.

However some EMT staff will claim it isn't valid. Hopefully you won't encounter them, but if you do, I am happy to assist in any resulting dispute with EMT.

 

[1E05]

Is the ticket valid even though EMT don't stop at Harlington though?

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes, its valid under section 19c of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

You are right in most cases the train has to stop at the point in which you change between tickets. However, if exactly one of the tickets is a season ticket (the Travelcard season in this case), then there is no requirement to stop

 

[Flying Snail]

Is the ticket valid even though EMT don't stop at Harlington though?

Under the rule that allows the use of non-stopping trains as long as one ticket used for the split is a season and the other isn't then it is valid for the first split

For the second split wouldn't the train have to be one stopping at Kettering though? In which case the OP's choice of train would not be valid and just the xx.30 EMT Nottingham service would be allowed.

 

[maniacmartin]

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Note that it says two or more tickets, and under (c) the other ticket(s)

I take this to mean that the subsequent tickets are all covered under this condition - a single season ticket can be used with a chain of other non-seasons under 19(c), without calling at any of the changeover stations.

 

[calc7]

Under the rule that allows the use of non-stopping trains as long as one ticket used for the split is a season and the other isn't then it is valid for the first split

For the second split wouldn't the train have to be one stopping at Kettering though? In which case the OP's choice of train would not be valid and just the xx.30 EMT Nottingham service would be allowed.

The customer is making one journey, using two non-seasons and a season. This obeys NRCoC Condition 19(c).

This condition does not stipulate where in the string of tickets the season has to be used.

 

[Flying Snail]

That one had escaped me, thanks guys.

 

[yorkie]

Under the rule that allows the use of non-stopping trains as long as one ticket used for the split is a season and the other isn't then it is valid for the first split.

You got the first part right, then when you say "other", look again it can be more than one! and as for the last bit.... that's been made up.

www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

This applies in the case described by the OP:

...one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That one had escaped me, thanks guys.

Sorry, posted at the same time

 

[soil]

I have sent you a couple of loopholes to reduce this to £26.95.

Plus in this case no point in using Boundary Zone 6, as the fares from Elstree & Borehamwood are the same price and easier to purchase (e.g. online).

I always prefer to buy online and collect from a machine.

 

[derby]

Would I be able to reserve a seat at a ticket office for the fast service?

 

[yorkie]

Would I be able to reserve a seat at a ticket office for the fast service?

You are entitled to do this, and the ticket office is able to do it. But I cannot guarantee the ticket clerk will be familiar with Condition 19 and actually issue it.

 

[RJ]

Would I be able to reserve a seat at a ticket office for the fast service?

Good luck with that!

 

[derby]

I hadn't expected a 'yes that would be easy!'

The question should have been more 'Am I entitled to one' and 'Are the facilities available to issue one', even if it takes some 'discussion'

 

[soil]

EMT state that season tickets cannot make reservations.

 

[RJ]

The 07:55 isn't normally overly busy anyway. Certainly not busy enough to warrant worrying about a reservation, plus I understand Coach D is unreservable.

 

[derby]

Sure, I just thought maybe a seat reservation would help my case if I can show it, every little helps.

 

[soil]

I look forward to hearing how you get on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
RJ would you agree that it's a bad idea to go to the ticket office?

OP can buy his tickets online, collect from the machine, and then with a little luck:

board at St Pancras using Oyster
no ticket check on the train
exit at the other side using his ticket valid to Leicester at the ATBs

If he goes to the ticket office, they can say 'this is not valid', and then he's got nowhere, or they can say it is valid, but if they do that, then when he boards the train the guard might think otherwise, so going to the ticket office didn't help.

 

[derby]

Are the gates for East Midland at St Pancras oyster enabled? I'm not sure but I don't think trains serving Zone 1-6 even run from those platforms?

I wonder how this is going to go down... planning on being there 20 minute early anyway.

 

[JamesRowden]

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Note that it says two or more tickets, and under (c) the other ticket(s)

But could the 'more' refer to a case where the train runs fast through the entire length of the season ticket with standard tickets attached to either end of the season ticket.

e.g.
Train runs along route A-B-C-D
It runs fast from A to D
Passenger has season ticket B-C
Passenger Buys A-B and C-D tickets

All three tickets must be shown to show that the combination of tickets are valid on the train at any point in the journey even though all splits occur with at least one ticket being a season ticket. More tickets could potentially be needed to be shown if there were non-interconnecting season tickets and more than one section for which other tickets were bought.

(e.g. of four tickets required)
Train run route A-B-C-D-E
It run fast from A to E
Passenger has season tickets B-C and D-E

I therefore do not believe that the OPs tickets idea would necessarily be valid on the fast Leicester services since it contains a linking of tickets at a stop that the train does not stop at and neither of the two tickets are seasons (at Kettering).

 

[derby]

But could the 'more' refer to a case where the train runs fast through the entire length of the season ticket with standard tickets attached to either end of the season ticket.

e.g.
Train runs along route A-B-C-D
It runs fast from A to D
Passenger has season ticket B-C
Passenger Buys A-B and C-D tickets

All three tickets must be shown to show that the combination of tickets are valid on the train at any point in the journey even though all splits occur with at least one ticket being a season ticket. More tickets could potentially be needed to be shown if there were non-interconnecting season tickets and more than one section for which other tickets were bought.

(e.g. of four tickets required)
Train run route A-B-C-D-E
It run fast from A to E
Passenger has season tickets B-C and D-E

I therefore do not believe that the OPs tickets idea would necessarily be valid on the fast Leicester services since it contains a linking of tickets at a stop that the train does not stop at and neither of the two tickets are seasons (at Kettering).

I don't quite understand your post or your examples but common consensus is there's no doubt that A-D non-stop with A-B season and B-C and C-D tickets is indeed valid.

 

[JamesRowden]

I don't quite understand your post or your examples but common consensus is there's no doubt that A-D non-stop with A-B season and B-C and C-D tickets is indeed valid.

I am saying that the fact that the rules state that more than two tickets may need to be shown to a ticket inspector simultaneously under one sitaution in the universe of split ticketing, does not mean that a season ticket can link two other non-season tickets later in a journey (with no stopping at the stations of those tickets).

From reading the terms and conditions it would seem logical that during such a transfer between split tickets only the two at the transfer point determine if the ticket is valid at that point (and so one ticket has to be a season or the transfer point a stop on the service) but that another ticket may be needed to make one of those two tickets valid during a pervious transfer point on the split ticket chain.

Common consensus does not prove that beliefs are ture

 

[LexyBoy]

I am saying that the fact that the rules state that more than two tickets may need to be shown to a ticket inspector simultaneously under one sitaution in the universe of split ticketing, does not mean that a season ticket can link two other non-season tickets later in a journey (with no stopping at the stations of those tickets).

I agree that common sense would say that the train need not stop at the changeover from a Season to a non-Season ticket; I am also sure that this is what was intended when Condition 19 was drafted.

From reading the terms and conditions it would seem logical that during such a transfer between split tickets only the two at the transfer point determine if the ticket is valid at that point (and so one ticket has to be a season or the transfer point a stop on the service) but that another ticket may be needed to make one of those two tickets valid during a pervious transfer point on the split ticket chain.

Yes, that would be logical.

Common consensus does not prove that beliefs are ture

Indeed. Nor does logic.

The validity or not of a ticket or tickets for a journey is determined by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Law and any relevant precedents, local easements etc. The NRCoC is perfectly clear in the wording of Condition 19; although it could be read in the way you describe this is not at all made clear (or even implied) in the wording as it stands.

(BTW I believe that ATOC were queried on this and clarified that Condition 19 does apply to any number of tickets, although this is of course not first hand information).

 

[JamesRowden]

I agree that common sense would say that the train need not stop at the changeover from a Season to a non-Season ticket; I am also sure that this is what was intended when Condition 19 was drafted.

I think you've misunderstood. The OP is trying to do a triple split ticket of Season-NonSeason-NonSeason and is convinced that the NonSeason-NonSeason transfer is valid because of the the Season on the previous transfer even though the train does not call at the NonSeason-NonSeason transfer point.

 

[soil]

I think you've misunderstood. The OP is trying to do a triple split ticket of Season-NonSeason-NonSeason and is convinced that the NonSeason-NonSeason transfer is valid because of the the Season on the previous transfer even though the train does not call at the NonSeason-NonSeason transfer point.

What is this 'triple split' and 'NonSeason-Nonseason transfer' of which you speak?

These are concepts not found in the contract and not helpful.

The OP's 'journey' is wonderfully simple:

board at St Pancras
alight at the first stop, Leicester

This is 'one journey', and nobody could possibly claim otherwise.

Fortunately the Conditions of Carriage express in abundantly clear wording, what is permitted in this context:

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and
(a) <snipped>
(b) <snipped>
or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not. "

In this case, the number of season ticket is one, and the number of other tickets is two which is very clearly permitted.

So the only possible argument you could have is about whether the Oyster Card might have been issued by a PTE or Local Authority (the answer is no, but it as at least relevant). Any talk of transfers between tickets is completely irrelevant when 19(c) is invoked.

 

[LexyBoy]

I think you've misunderstood. The OP is trying to do a triple split ticket of Season-NonSeason-NonSeason and is convinced that the NonSeason-NonSeason transfer is valid because of the the Season on the previous transfer even though the train does not call at the NonSeason-NonSeason transfer point.

I understand that. I am saying that the wording of Condition 19(c):

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:[...]
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

does not make any reference to the location(s) at which validity changes from one ticket to another.

Consider your examples:
A-D on a non-stop train
In every case the journey is A-D (obviously it could be part of a longer journey but lets keep it simple).
- Case 1. Passenger has Season A-B, and single tickets B-C and C-D. One of the tickets is a season, the others are not. Satisfies Condition 19.
- Case 2. Passenger has Season B-C, and single tickets A-B and C-D. One of the tickets is a season, the others are not. Satisfies Condition 19.
- Case 3. Passenger has Season A-B, a single B-C and a Season C-D. Two of the tickets are seasons, one is not. Does not satisfy Condition 19 in this case - not valid unless the train calls at B and C.*

As far as I can see the only way of reading Condition 19(c) is:
1) Do the tickets cover the whole route travelled?
2) Is one, and only one, of the tickets a Season?
If the answer to both is yes then the combination is valid.

I think you may have the "commonsense" interpretation lodged too firmly in your head. The overlying requirement of Condition 19 is only that the tickets must cover the whole route - where the trains you use stop only applies for one of the sub-clauses.

* whether or not it is valid to travel on a train calling A-B-D and claim it is two journeys, A-B and B-D is another matter!

 

[maniacmartin]

Of course your interpretation is most logical JamesRowden, and was most likely what was intended. However that is not what is actually stated in the NRCoC. Rail ticketing proves time and time again that it isn't logical!

ATOC have tried to get this wording amended in the NRCoC to stop the type of chaining mentioned above, but the DfT has prevented them from doing so.

 

[RJ]

I therefore do not believe that the OPs tickets idea would necessarily be valid on the fast Leicester services since it contains a linking of tickets at a stop that the train does not stop at and neither of the two tickets are seasons (at Kettering).

You're reading far too much into it. The wording doesn't say anything about where the train has to stop or transfer points as you refer to them as. It just says that you can use more than one ticket for a journey, so long as one is a season and the other(s) is/are not. If you want to have a debate about the intended meaning then by all means, start one, but it's not particularly conducive to derail a thread where we're discussing an arrangement which we already know is categorically acceptable.

I look forward to hearing how you get on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
RJ would you agree that it's a bad idea to go to the ticket office?

OP can buy his tickets online, collect from the machine, and then with a little luck:

board at St Pancras using Oyster
no ticket check on the train
exit at the other side using his ticket valid to Leicester at the ATBs

If he goes to the ticket office, they can say 'this is not valid', and then he's got nowhere, or they can say it is valid, but if they do that, then when he boards the train the guard might think otherwise, so going to the ticket office didn't help.

The way I see it, there is nothing for Derby to lose by trying to obtain a reservation from the ticket office. In the eventuality of a conflict, it may give credence to their argument if they can show that the combination was ratified by a member of staff in the ticket office.

Buying the tickets online is a good idea. The barriers at St Pancras High Level aren't Oyster enabled - there is a standalone reader beyond the goods gate adjacent to the gateline which spends most of each day covered up. Paper Travelcards do work the barriers however.

I also echo soil's sentiment about hearing how you got on.

 

[bb21]

I don't understand the point of the discussion.

This issue has been clarified by ATOC and various TOCs and the combination the OP proposes to use is absolutely valid.

What might have been the intention is anybody's guess, and we probably all have different interpretations as to what it was intended anyway.

 

[JamesRowden]

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and
(a) <snipped>
(b) <snipped>
or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not. "

I just think that when in (c) it might not be fully explanatry and was originally meant to mean:

'one of the tickets at each joining point (where one ticket ends and another starts) is a Season Ticket and the other ticket is not.' (I think that the plurals at the end of the real statement might be for the possiblitity of creating a NonSeason-Season-NonSeason chain and not a Season-NonSeason-Nonseason chain [since this is the only way that someone not looking for split-ticket bargain would enqiure about]).

Considering consistency I thought that the rules were intended to treat the Zone 6 to Leicester part of this journey as a seperate non-season ticket (apart from the Zone 6 split) because the tickets will have been priced accordingly.

Now people say that ATOC say they allow this type of splitting, I doubt that ATOC want it to be OK and would not allow it if they could since it can only really reduce TOC profits. Perhaps it is just too complicated to change?

Or maybe it was thought that my idea would be too complicated for people to understand when written?