Northern services longer than 4 cars

[34D]

Hello,

I have lived in Leeds for most of my life, and Northern rail (and the TOCs before them) seem to have an aversion to trains longer than 3 or 4 cars. In the 1980s I remember travelling on 5 car DMUs on my local line (Leeds-Garforth) but nowadays any incidence of 5 cars coupled together sees one set locked out of use (even if there is platform capacity for it).

The only Northern services I am aware of that are longer than 4 public-available cars are:

Six car: 2C07 06:51 York-Harrogate (two cars continue to Leeds, four stay at Harrogate to form a later service)

Five car: not 100% sure of the working, but there is a five car class 144 that arrives in Leeds (pos from the Dewsbury direction) at around 08:30.

There must be others, either in Leeds or Manchester areas?

 

[pdq]

The 0710 ish Leeds to Man Vic via Dewsbury is usually 5 cars, often a 142 and a 3 car 144

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Blindtraveler]

last time I was in Blackpool last August my mate spotted 2x 3 car 158s on the BPN - YRK via Bradford and Leeds at round 15:00. Well loaded too even on a mid week rainy day in August. Didnt use it though as the 2 car 142 loading for manchester was more my thing!

 

[34D]

last time I was in Blackpool last August my mate spotted 2x 3 car 158s on the BPN - YRK via Bradford and Leeds at round 15:00. Well loaded too even on a mid week rainy day in August. Didnt use it though as the 2 car 142 loading for manchester was more my thing!

Wow. That is very very rare. I imagine one unit would get detached at Leeds (micklefield platform can only take 4 coaches). Thanks for the report blindtraveller.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Its not so much an aversion. They don't really have the stock to run more than 4 car services... and most platforms won't take more than 4 cars. So really anymore than 4 is unrealistic for Nothern.

a 5 car pacer i believe is about that same length as a 4 car 150.

 

[northwichcat]

A 5 car Pacer is actually a little shorter than a 4 car 150. Anywhere that can take a 4 car 156 or 158 combination can take a 6 car 142 or 144 combination.

The most interesting Northern combination I've seen in service was an ex-ATN 156 on the front with a ex-FNW 150 behind it and a Merseytravel 142 on the back. Apparently this was because of a fault in the cab on the 150 and it was easier for a 142 sat in the sidings to be tagged on than to take the 150 off and to add the 142 on. A Northern guard on a train stopped in the opposite direction looked like he was about to have a heart attack when he saw that 6 car formation pull in!

 

[theblackwatch]

There was a feature in Today's Railways UK a few months ago which went into great detail on Northern Unit Diagramming. I've not got a copy myself, but if anyone has one, it may provide a few answers.

 

[34D]

Its not so much an aversion. They don't really have the stock to run more than 4 car services... and most platforms won't take more than 4 cars. So really anymore than 4 is unrealistic for Nothern.

But with SDO or grandfather rights it isn't an issue. Look at class 180s at Mirfield or Pontefract Monkhill.

According to quail, the platform numbers of every station between Hebden Bridge and York (except Micklefield, which is 4 at present, but there's a live plan to rebuild slightly further west) can take 5 cars plus. This is based on 20metre vehicles (so 150s) so _possibly_ a 5 car 158 (23 metre) may struggle at some stations to line up.

If anyone has a red quail (midland) handy perhaps they could check for Hebden Bridge to Manchester Victoria?

There was a feature in Today's Railways UK a few months ago which went into great detail on Northern Unit Diagramming. I've not got a copy myself, but if anyone has one, it may provide a few answers.

Many thanks. Do you recall the issue number? Sounds interesting. I don't usually bother with the comics these days, so haven't seen it.

 

[tom1649]

Do or have 323s ever run as 6 car trains in service? I would have thought it unlikely as the fleet is stretched at the best of times, but maybe there's been the odd exception here and there.

 

[Nym]

323s frequently run as 6 car ECS...

 

[YorkshireBear]

But with SDO or grandfather rights it isn't an issue. Look at class 180s at Mirfield or Pontefract Monkhill.

According to quail, the platform numbers of every station between Hebden Bridge and York (except Micklefield, which is 4 at present, but there's a live plan to rebuild slightly further west) can take 5 cars plus. This is based on 20metre vehicles (so 150s) so _possibly_ a 5 car 158 (23 metre) may struggle at some stations to line up.

If anyone has a red quail (midland) handy perhaps they could check for Hebden Bridge to Manchester Victoria?



Many thanks. Do you recall the issue number? Sounds interesting. I don't usually bother with the comics these days, so haven't seen it.

You pay for it to be fitted to the entire fleet then.... Point still stands though thre isnt enough stock to do it either.

 

[northwichcat]

You pay for it to be fitted to the entire fleet then.... Point still stands though thre isnt enough stock to do it either.

Some operators with newer trains have SDO fitted but don't use it e.g. the 172 operators while others who could usefully use it don't have it. :roll:

 

[Manchester77]

Do 333s ever run doubled up?

 

[elarchibaldo]

Hello,

I have lived in Leeds for most of my life, and Northern rail (and the TOCs before them) seem to have an aversion to trains longer than 3 or 4 cars. In the 1980s I remember travelling on 5 car DMUs on my local line (Leeds-Garforth) but nowadays any incidence of 5 cars coupled together sees one set locked out of use (even if there is platform capacity for it).

The only Northern services I am aware of that are longer than 4 public-available cars are:

Six car: 2C07 06:51 York-Harrogate (two cars continue to Leeds, four stay at Harrogate to form a later service)

Five car: not 100% sure of the working, but there is a five car class 144 that arrives in Leeds (pos from the Dewsbury direction) at around 08:30.

There must be others, either in Leeds or Manchester areas?

One I know of is supposed to be the 1737 Leeds to Manchester Victoria as a 5 car. Also there are 6car 323's on the Manchester United run every so often, usually when it's a big game

 

[30907]

Do 333s ever run doubled up?

Not on the normal routes (unless with one of them locked oou). I think only Bingley(?) Keighley and Shipley P4 could take them en route.

On the general topic, I'm sure I recall 5 cars 150+144 on a Sheffield-Leeds via Moorthorpe

 

[185143]

I once saw an... Get ready for it ... an 8 CAR Class 150 convoy ECS pulling into Piccadilly platform 4 last year ive also seen lots of 6 car ECS 142's passing Guide Bridge

 

[HRS]

Five car: not 100% sure of the working, but there is a five car class 144 that arrives in Leeds (pos from the Dewsbury direction) at around 08:30.

I seem to recall seeing that formation regularly at New Pudsey, heading towards Leeds at about 8:15...from Wakefield/Huddersfield I think?

 

[elarchibaldo]

I once saw
an... Get ready for it ... an 8 CAR Class 150 convoy ECS pulling into
Piccadilly platform 4 last year ive also seen lots of 6 car ECS 142's
passing Guide Bridge

the Good old 3C02, Newton Heath to Manchester Piccadilly

 

[gimmea50anyday]

9 car 185's have run from Manchester to Preston before, all 9 in service.

 

[Crossover]

There are a few Leeds - Manchester Victoria booked as 5 cars. Seen a few as a 3 car and 2 car 144 put together. Both via Dewsbury and I think via Bradford too.

You'll usually find they are peak workings (or interworked with them)

2U04 07:13 Leeds - Dewsbury - Manchester Victoria is one such, as I was on the return working the other week, 2U05 09:00 Manchester Victoria - Dewsbury - Leeds

On the latter, you can see here it splits to two services, one of which involves the unit sat in the bay at Leeds for a good few hours. When I was there on Wednesday it was a 142 unit sat there

But with SDO or grandfather rights it isn't an issue. Look at class 180s at Mirfield or Pontefract Monkhill.

I don't think most of Northern stock will have SDO (if any) and I'd hazard a guess that grandfather rights may only apply to the likes of HSTs (slammers) but I may be wrong

Do or have 323s ever run as 6 car trains in service? I would have thought it unlikely as the fleet is stretched at the best of times, but maybe there's been the odd exception here and there.

Not sure about Northern. Happens in LM land though

Do 333s ever run doubled up?

There was a discussion not so long since about this - only on ECS moves I believe, such as in/out of depot. Not sure if both can be under power either (something to do with a safety case never being made for it?)

As mentioned though, very few of the platforms on the lines they work would take anything longer than a 4 car (even if they worked a Doncaster stopper, Sandal and Agbrigg only just held the 4 car 321 I was on the other day, let alone anything longer

9 car 185's have run from Manchester to Preston before, all 9 in service.

There was a discussion about this the other day when I met some of the forum members - I am sure I have seen such a service once and couldn't quite believe what I was seeing! It came about because we were talking about coach letters - any idea if you end up with (probably in some random order!) ABC - DEF - GHJ?

 

[Boothby97]

Seen as I have a large pile of continuous Today's Railways uk magazines, I have the northern fleet utilisation copy and I will post details tomorrow for you

 

[talltim]

Northern also seem to have an aversion to coupling units like to like, in the Sheffield area anyway. For example you never see two 142s, it's always a 142 and a 144, or a 150 and a 142, etc

 

[Crossover]

Northern also seem to have an aversion to coupling units like to like, in the Sheffield area anyway. For example you never see two 142s, it's always a 142 and a 144, or a 150 and a 142, etc

142 and 158 was a spot I had a few months back!

Their units also seem to sometimes have an aversion to coupling full stop!

 

[northwichcat]

Northern also seem to have an aversion to coupling units like to like, in the Sheffield area anyway. For example you never see two 142s,

You do in the Manchester area.

 

[Boothby97]

Summary of Northern fleet utilisation strategy
Today's Railways UK May 2012 (issue 125)

5 car 144 formation
2315 arrival at Leeds (from Sheffield, via Bolton-on-Dearne) - Friday excluded

5 car 142+144 formation
0729 Huddersfield-Leeds (via Bradford)

5 car 158+142
2222 Manchester Victoria-Blackpool

6 car 142 formation
2008 Wigan-Liverpool LS

6 car 142+142+156 formation
1804 Huddersfield-Manchester Victoria

6 car 150+142+142 formations
2127 Wigan-Manchester
2227 Wigan-Manchester

6 car 150 formation
0952 Manchester-Buxton, 1430 Buxton-Manchester

6 car 150/2 formation
0652 York-Leeds (until Harrogate, where 1 detached)

The 321/322/323/333s do not work in multiple in passenger service
Although, 9 car 323 (empty stock) work 0435 Longsight-Manchester Piccadilly

13 of the 63 workings on Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester Victoria services are 5 cars

Thanks, Sam

 

[30907]

With the exception of the 0729 HUD-BDI-LDS and presumably the HUD-MCV workings, these look to be for moving stock around rather than coping with passenger demand

 

[Crossover]

With the exception of the 0729 HUD-BDI-LDS and presumably the HUD-MCV workings, these look to be for moving stock around rather than coping with passenger demand

I have been on this one before, as far as Marsden:

6 car 142+142+156 formation
1804 Huddersfield-Manchester Victoria

Only the front unit (an ex-Merseytravel 142 ) was in passenger service, the rest locked out of use.

The most of the carriages were off the platform at Marsden anyway!

EDIT: Found my notes and it was 13th March 2012 (can't quite believe it is so long since!) and consisted of 142052, 142004 and 156468

 

[Geeves]

In the past I have dispatched 2 X 3 car 158 with a 3 car 144 on the back from Victoria during disruptions, only the front 6 cars open, but one hell of a train!

You get some great combos going up to the depot from Vic 4 x 153 is a sight lol as is an 9 car 144!

The 08:00, 09:00, 17:00 and 19:00 Vic - Leeds trains are all booked for 5 cars.

Its stopped since the timetable change but the 21:39 was also running as a 6 car but generally the only the front 4 cars were open depending on what the type of train was or how busy it was.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I believe one of the Buxton services is booked for three 2-car units, although I think only the first carriage is in use!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Me-TPE have run 9 car 185's

There was a discussion about this the other day when I met some of the forum members - I am sure I have seen such a service once and couldn't quite believe what I was seeing! It came about because we were talking about coach letters - any idea if you end up with (probably in some random order!) ABC - DEF - GHJ?

The last time we did this rangers(or was it celtic?) were playing at old Trafford, can't remember who but some clock broke the city centre big screen and the
Fans kicked off when mr fix it man turned up! As Manchester city centre hotels were full a lot of the crazy scots stayed overnight in Preston and blackpool. To shift the crowds at the end a 4 car 170 shuttled between Piccadilly and airport while a 9 car followed by a further 6 car ran from picc to Bolton and Preston. These trains were short planned specials and not timetabled. The 9 car left occy road rammed and people were left behind and there was a lot of kicking off on the train and on the station too. The 6 car was pretty full when that left. I was working a York overnight service and had unusually 6 on but was pretty quiet in comparison.


Coach I isn't generally used because of the confusion with the number 1, having said that TPE don't use lettering beyond coach F anyway. In this case coach lettering was dispensed with anyway.