Old Street Damaged Tunnel?

[johnnychips]

Not sure, Paul, but I would have thought a hefty compensation claim by the train companies/NR against the constructors was in order; then after that I would expect that there has been a serious breach of Health and Safety rules.

 

[philjo]

Good thing it is 3rd rail along there - they shouldn't be there of course but you wouldn't want the piles to come into contact with 25kv OHLE!

 

[machorne]

I found the site on Friday, in East Road, near junction with New North Road. The railway runs well behind the building line owing to road curvature. The attached link goes to a plan showing the location (it is the left hand tunnel (northbound), the one further from the arrow). Depth below ground at this point is about 30ft to tunnel crown, maybe a tad less. http://t.co/da09JDDwhI

Interesting that drill got through the cast iron tunnel segments quite so easily. I can't now recall whether the ones involved in Leytonstone incident (which very nearly affected a second train) involved cast iron or concrete segments.

Both Network Rail and LU have infrastructure protection sections set up to respond to enquiries by contractors, architects and so on planning work anywhere near a railway, and who can provide helpful advice and detailed locational information. Professional engineers will be very familiar with these processes and when to use them. I would also have expected the site-owner to have access to its land registry entry which ought surely to have mentioned the existence on the Underground tunnels and their location - the kind of thing even a conveyancing solicitor might have pointed out! It's online now - no doubt somebody will be checking?

All very puzzling - looking forward to the report.

 

[daikilo]

I found the site on Friday, in East Road, near junction with New North Road. The railway runs well behind the building line owing to road curvature. The attached link goes to a plan showing the location (it is the left hand tunnel (northbound), the one further from the arrow). Depth below ground at this point is about 30ft to tunnel crown, maybe a tad less. http://t.co/da09JDDwhI

Interesting that drill got through the cast iron tunnel segments quite so easily. I can't now recall whether the ones involved in Leytonstone incident (which very nearly affected a second train) involved cast iron or concrete segments.

.

Thanks for the positioning.

The material under the drill heads looks more like shredded brick than iron. Also, at least the lower part of the tunnel wall is definitely brick although there do appear to be hoops above the train.

 

[machorne]

When the Great Northern & City was built (it opened in 1904), it was shield driven and entirely lined with cast iron and cement grouted in usual way. As each section was driven forward, the lower cast iron segments were removed in short sections and replaced by a number of rings of brickwork; the cast iron so recovered was then used elsewhere. The tunnels are therefore cast iron (top half) and brick (lower half). This is probably unique, but gave rise to much quieter running than wholly in iron.

Given the nature of the area and the fact that brick houses with basements originally lay on the site (possibly more than one generation), I'm not sure that the existence of brick somewhere above the tunnel is all that significant.

Looking at the photo again, is the broken material on trackbed brick? Might well be gravel perhaps?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Good thing it is 3rd rail along there - they shouldn't be there of course but you wouldn't want the piles to come into contact with 25kv OHLE!

To coin a northern phrase, it would have been shocking if that happened!!!

 

[Ploughman]

This reminds me of the accident British Rail had with the London Ring Water Main when they were building the Stewart's Lane flyover.

Or when the Leeds NW mast drillers found the main power supply line that feeds Bradford.

 

[hwl]

Looks like the lawyers are going to have some fun (plenty of finger pointing)

http://www.constructionenquirer.com...m-all-foundations-pierced-london-rail-tunnel/

Ground survey with 2 test bores hit something at 14m (aiming for 20m) which they assumed was a sewer as there "weren't any London Underground lines in close proximity"

If the location of the piling by machorne is correct, the last buildings on the site looked like a mix of 2 and 4 storey council housing which might suggest they had better knowledge in the 1960s given the surrounding building being taller...

 

[Oswyntail]

...Ground survey with 2 test bores hit something at 14m (aiming for 20m) which they assumed was a sewer as there "weren't any London Underground lines in close proximity".....

Surely, surely it couldn't be something as daft as not realising there were other possible rail tunnels? What depth is the tunnel anyway? And would they have ignored a sewer? Bizarre responses!:roll:

 

[snowball]

there "weren't any London Underground lines in close proximity"

[snip]

which might suggest they had better knowledge in the 1960s given the surrounding building being taller...

They wouldn't have needed better knowledge in the 1960s. If they'd asked the same question then ("Are there any Underground lines in the area?") the answer would have been yes, as it was an Underground line then.

Apparently though they think it's OK to drill into a sewer.

 

[dysonsphere]

Intresting if you read the article in the "Constructionenquirer" they had planning permission for a seven story block of flats with piling which I assume would be also on the plans so someone in the planning department of the local council must be a bit worried.

 

[Aictos]

Looks like the lawyers are going to have some fun (plenty of finger pointing)

http://www.constructionenquirer.com...m-all-foundations-pierced-london-rail-tunnel/

Ground survey with 2 test bores hit something at 14m (aiming for 20m) which they assumed was a sewer as there "weren't any London Underground lines in close proximity"

If the location of the piling by machorne is correct, the last buildings on the site looked like a mix of 2 and 4 storey council housing which might suggest they had better knowledge in the 1960s given the surrounding building being taller...

Good to see the journalists stuck in 1993, British Rail? It's not been that for years people! Oh yeah and Welwyn Garden City isn't just the only station served by line :roll:

Surely a better sentence would have said FCC services between Moorgate and Welwyn Garden City/Hertford North and Letchworth Garden City were affected....

 

[PR1Berske]

Good to see the journalists stuck in 1993, British Rail? It's not been that for years people! Oh yeah and Welwyn Garden City isn't just the only station served by line :roll:

Surely a better sentence would have said FCC services between Moorgate and Welwyn Garden City/Hertford North and Letchworth Garden City were affected....

Well, although I agree with your need for accuracy, this is not a rail industry newspaper, nor is the audience likely to care about every main station stop. The story says all it needs to for a wide, general audience.

"British Rail" is a bit silly of them, though.

 

[jon0844]

Good to see the journalists stuck in 1993, British Rail? It's not been that for years people! Oh yeah and Welwyn Garden City isn't just the only station served by line :roll:

Surely a better sentence would have said FCC services between Moorgate and Welwyn Garden City/Hertford North and Letchworth Garden City were affected....

Well if you go to Old Street, you might think trains only go to Welwyn (which one? It doesn't say!) and at Moorgate you might think they only go to Stevenage...

I don't think it would add anything to the story to give the full route map, but talking about BR was perhaps a bit silly. That is unless it was referring to BR as being the organisation that constructed the tunnel (or was that London Underground)?! Certainly FCC didn't build it.

 

[Wyvern]

That is unless it was referring to BR as being the organisation that constructed the tunnel (or was that London Underground)?! Certainly FCC didn't build it.

City & South London Railway 1901

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_%26_South_London_Railway

 

[jon0844]

Thanks. I should have known that tunnel was quite old.

 

[Zoidberg]

I had to smile when I read, in this article, http://www.building.co.uk/buildings...igates-tunnel-piling-incident/5051654.article that

The incident, which occurred on Friday morning, saw a train driver forced to take evasive action when two large piling drills came through the tunnel wall of the Moorgate to Finsbury Park Northern City Line.

That conjured up a vision of him somehow swerving round the obstruction.

 

[Mojo]

'British Rail' is still a common colloquialism used by people in the London area to differentiate from those stations/lines that are run by London Underground, the DLR or the Overground.

 

[jon0844]

I had to smile when I read, in this article, http://www.building.co.uk/buildings...igates-tunnel-piling-incident/5051654.article that

That conjured up a vision of him somehow swerving round the obstruction.

It wasn't a Virgin train you know!

 

[Bungle73]

City & South London Railway 1901

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_%26_South_London_Railway

Wrong! That's a completely different line (now the Northern line). For a start that is a small tube line, where as the line in question is constructed to mainline dimensions. It was opened in 1904 by the Great Northern & City Railway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_City_Line

 

[A-driver]

Wrong! That's a completely different line (now the Northern line). For a start that is a small tube line, where as the line in question is constructed to mainline dimensions. It was opened in 1904 by the Great Northern & City Railway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_City_Line

Was it? I thought the NCL tunnels were exactly the same dimensions as the northern line tunnels. That's why the only unit to physically fit past Drayton park is a 313.

 

[Bungle73]

Was it? I thought the NCL tunnels were exactly the same dimensions as the northern line tunnels. That's why the only unit to physically fit past Drayton park is a 313.

313s are a lot bigger than Northern Line trains.

 

[sidmouth]

NCL line has a diameter of 16 foot and the Northern Line 12 foot. I suppose the confusion occurs as the Moorgate - Drayton line was named the Northern Line (Higbury Branch) 1970 to 75, when then taken over by BR.

 

[Class377/5]

NCL line has a diameter of 16 foot and the Northern Line 12 foot. I suppose the confusion occurs as the Moorgate - Drayton line was named the Northern Line (Higbury Branch) 1970 to 75, when then taken over by BR.

It was attached to the Northern Line in the 1930's until it went to BR in 1970's. it was kicked out of the low level Finsbury Park station by the Victoria Line in the 1960's.

 

[Bungle73]

It was attached to the Northern Line in the 1930's until it went to BR in 1970's. it was kicked out of the low level Finsbury Park station by the Victoria Line in the 1960's.

"Connected" in the loosest sense of the word - it was never psychically connected to the main part of the Northern Line, it was always a separate branch. This is also the line where the Moorgate disaster occurred, when it was part of the Northern Line.

 

[martybabes]

Now i don't like blame culture but this is a situation where i think suing needs to be done.... Serious serious mistake that could have had far worse consequences.

In the same way as all lawyers are fat cats and ambulance-chasers...

...until such time as you need one yourself!


But a civil action will generally only deal with the level of compensation - the blame will lie on the body that has to pay it (presumably the Defendant in any civil suit).

One way of avoiding blame is to settle out-of-court - always a lot cheaper in the long run.

 

[daikilo]

But a civil action will generally only deal with the level of compensation - the blame will lie on the body that has to pay it (presumably the Defendant in any civil suit).

One way of avoiding blame is to settle out-of-court - always a lot cheaper in the long run.[/QUOTE]

As there was no physical injury I agree. However, it will be complex due to the sequence of events which is probably something like this
1) TOC to NR: I lost money and had expenses because your tunnel was shut
2) NR to drilling company: you damaged my tunnel which I had to repair at great expense and reimburse the TOC and delay payments to his passengers )maybe not this time)
3) (possibly) Drilling company to whoever drew up the plans: your plan was incomplete and I now have a claim from NR
4) and possibly etc...
Now someone could try claiming that NR had shifted the tunnel laterally without telling anyone but I doubt they would.

What is pretty clear is that the building will have to be recalculated and redesigned and possibly new planning permission sought.

In fact it is possibly just as well this happened before a much worse event such as the piles stopping just above the tunnel roof a year later the whole building finally sinking throigh it. Likely it would not be a civil case would have followed. Because of this, I suspect that a judge might consider that someone in the chain may actually have committed a potentially criminal offence.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is pretty clear is that the building will have to be recalculated and redesigned and possibly new planning permission sought.

This is one matter that had occurred to me, as surely the submitted documentation with the original planning application would have to have shown all below-ground hazards (including London Underground and standard railway tunnels) that the Local Authority in question should have been aware of, when making their deliberations and considerations on this said planning application.

 

[Wyvern]

Wrong! That's a completely different line (now the Northern line).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_City_Line

OK Sorry. Thanks for that.

 

[martybabes]

I suspect that a judge might consider that someone in the chain may actually have committed a potentially criminal offence.

Nope - he will adjudicate only in the issues before him (liability and compensation). His remit will not include the question of anyone's criminal liability. That falls to the HSE and/or others at the investigation stage.