Flexible Advance Fares

[YorkshireBear]

Without adding another type of ticket to the market, would there ever be a case for TOCs to offer flexible advance fares.

Basically, say i find an advance single Sheffield to Newcastle for £15. For £25 i can travel on the service either side of this one, but my reservation would not be valid. You would purchase this extra if you wanted the security of not just one train in-case of delays.

Just an idea for discussion

 

[Clip]

Sounds good to me BUT imagine the furore f someone missed the later train and got hit with a new ticket.

Some posters on here would be in uproar!!

 

[SS4]

Problem with this is when the service either side is rammed due to peak/event demand. I can just see people paying to travel on the 1443 (off peak) and pay an extra tenner to travel on the 1503 (peak*). An alternative take on this method is for infrequent trains, pay £15 to travel on the 1103 (hypothetically arriving at 1416) and pay an extra £10 to go on the 0903 arriving at 1216. Connections are another one - does this apply only to the first leg, second leg or all connections?

It's a decent idea but I think it's too open to abuse and I don't have enough faith in the public for this to be a success


* the stupidity of peak starting at 3pm is for a whole new topic.

 

[bb21]

You mean like "Airport Advance" fares from TPE?

I don't think adding one more ticket type is going to make the fares system any more noticeably complicated, in reality.

 

[bakerstreet]

Without adding another type of ticket to the market, would there ever be a case for TOCs to offer flexible advance fares.

Basically, say i find an advance single Sheffield to Newcastle for £15. For £25 i can travel on the service either side of this one, but my reservation would not be valid. You would purchase this extra if you wanted the security of not just one train in-case of delays.

Just an idea for discussion

During the 1990s (please help as I may have mis-remembered the detail) I used to regularly travel from London to Birmingham.

InterCity West Coast dumped the SuperSaver return and replaced it with Shuttle Advance Return.

This ticket was an adnace purchase off-peak ticket, bookable only in advance (I think possibly a 7 days?) and you had to specify the date(s) of both your outward and return journeys. You could use the ticket on any train that day off peak (I think after 9.30 or 10am to around 3.30 or 4pm, or after 7 or 8pm.)

It was non refundable but I think it could be altered for a fee.. I also don't think it had any limit of numbers of tickets for each day.

It seemed to work, meant it was only for people who knew their travel plans some time in advance (so not many businesses wanted to use them) but it gave you significant flexibility on that day.

Although back then we were all annoyed at the loss of the SuperSaver return and having to be tied down to one particular day.

Little did we know what was coming - ie to be tied down to a particular train!!

 

[bb21]

Little did we know what was coming - ie to be tied down to a particular train!!

You mean as with Apex and SuperAdvance?

 

[SS4]

During the 1990s (please help as I may have mis-remembered the detail) I used to regularly travel from London to Birmingham.

InterCity West Coast dumped the SuperSaver return and replaced it with Shuttle Advance Return.

This ticket was an adnace purchase off-peak ticket, bookable only in advance (I think possibly a 7 days?) and you had to specify the date(s) of both your outward and return journeys. You could use the ticket on any train that day off peak (I think after 9.30 or 10am to around 3.30 or 4pm, or after 7 or 8pm.)

It was non refundable but I think it could be altered for a fee.. I also don't think it had any limit of numbers of tickets for each day.

It seemed to work, meant it was only for people who knew their travel plans some time in advance (so not many businesses wanted to use them) but it gave you significant flexibility on that day.

Although back then we were all annoyed at the loss of the SuperSaver return and having to be tied down to one particular day.

Little did we know what was coming - ie to be tied down to a particular train!!

And for the fare you describe to be resurrected as the web only Saver Half, no doubt at an inflated price

 

[ainsworth74]

Without adding another type of ticket to the market, would there ever be a case for TOCs to offer flexible advance fares.

There already is something a bit like that. On tickets from Manchester Airport TPE will allow travel up to three hours after the booked departure of your train if the incoming flight you were travelling on is late. Only requirement is that you get authorisation from the booking office at Manchester.

I've often thought that more TOCs should offer similar schemes on tickets from airports.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

We've often had speculative threads about other possible ticket types or restrictions. I seem to recall that for every "good idea" there were as many "good reasons" why they wouldn't work or wouldn't provide the Operators with the revenue and demand management they require.

Having said that, I remain disapointed that by not using an Advance ticket exactly as specified then it becomes worthless (notwithstanding the few slight allowances that are available). It seems to me that if seeking to travel on a slightly earlier or later service when it is obvious that the ticket held could not now be used, then some of its value could be offset against its replacement. (e.g. I have a £50 Advance from London to Newcastle on the 18:00 but then would prefer to leave 30 minutes earlier, so I'd pay another £150 for an Anytime, where some allowance against the unwanted Advance would be appreciated).

You mean like "Airport Advance" fares from TPE?

I've often thought that more TOCs should offer similar schemes on tickets from airports.

I agree, but I wonder why we should stop at airports? If there's a serious delay beyond my control on the T&W metro then my connection is not accomodated. And even if the delay is within my control, I still feel that the complete loss of all value is a little unnecessary (which might be why I have on ocassion bought very cheap advances on 2 trains an hour or so apart for the same journey when the two tickets are cheaper than just one Off-Peak).

I don't think adding one more ticket type is going to make the fares system any more noticeably complicated, in reality.

I defy anyone to make a workable system more complicated than it is.

 

[Deerfold]

Having said that, I remain disapointed that by not using an Advance ticket exactly as specified then it becomes worthless (notwithstanding the few slight allowances that are available). It seems to me that if seeking to travel on a slightly earlier or later service when it is obvious that the ticket held could not now be used, then some of its value could be offset against its replacement. (e.g. I have a £50 Advance from London to Newcastle on the 18:00 but then would prefer to leave 30 minutes earlier, so I'd pay another £150 for an Anytime, where some allowance against the unwanted Advance would be appreciated).

Surely, so long as you have time to go to the ticket office before getting the earlier train the advance is worth £40 off the Anytime single ticket price?

Of course the same doesn't apply if your service has already left.

 

[bb21]

Yes, partial credit if sorted out before the departure time of the first booked service.

 

[ainsworth74]

I agree, but I wonder why we should stop at airports? If there's a serious delay beyond my control on the T&W metro then my connection is not accomodated. And even if the delay is within my control, I still feel that the complete loss of all value is a little unnecessary.

I agree completely and utterly. The fact that if I miss my train (even if it's my fault) my ticket is now totally worthless has always rankled. But one step at a time

 

[dcsprior]

Without adding another type of ticket to the market, would there ever be a case for TOCs to offer flexible advance fares.

Basically, say i find an advance single Sheffield to Newcastle for £15. For £25 i can travel on the service either side of this one, but my reservation would not be valid. You would purchase this extra if you wanted the security of not just one train in-case of delays.

Just an idea for discussion

Nice idea - but I think I'd tweak it slightly:

• For a premium of 10%, make an advance ticket cancellable, even after the train has departed (i.e. even after you've missed it)
• You would only get the face value back, you wouldn't get the 10% refunded too (i.e. the 10% would be like an insurance premium - claiming on your home insurance doesn't get you a refund of the premium)
• if the 10% is less than £10, you'd pay the difference as a cancellation fee (£10 chosen as its in line with the admin fee for amending an advance ticket)
• if tickets called "off-peak" or "super-off-peak" but not normally available to buy on the day exist (like east coast), you're able to buy them if you've cancelled an advance with flexibility insurance

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I really didn't want to get into this analysis of the T&Cs again, but rather respond to the OP's interest in greater flexibility. But . . .

Surely, so long as you have time to go to the ticket office before getting the earlier train the advance is worth £40 off the Anytime single ticket price?

Of course the same doesn't apply if your service has already left.

That is a factually correct analysis of the Conditions, But it's NOT REMOTELY the same thing as the Advance ticket having some residual value for travel.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but my response to the OP's suggestion was that the ticket in itself (and not another ticket, after going to exchange it at a booking office for another that is equally restrictive) has no value if I want to travel slightly earlier or later.

To be pragmatic, rather than refer to conditions, the most likely reason for choosing to travel 30 mins before or after, when there is a free choice, is after unexpectedly meeting an aquaintance on the concourse and preferring to travel with them - going off to the booking hall rather breaks that sense of comraderie after which we might as well just travel seperately.

This is NOT a thread about the poorly publicised Conditions which a disinterested passenger would find inpenetrably inconsistent.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

the 10% would be like an insurance premium ]

You can already buy travel insurance to go with your advanced ticket. e.g.:

http://www.raileasy.co.uk/making-a-booking/insurance-tandcs
http://www.thetrainline.com/buytick...yDetails/Policy_Summary_TOCs_FINAL_Dec_07.pdf

 

[Zoe]

And for the fare you describe to be resurrected as the web only Saver Half, no doubt at an inflated price

Isn't the Saver Half basically an Off Peak single priced at half the cost of an Off Peak Return and only available when used as half of a return journey where the other leg is an advance fare? If so then it would seem to be quite different from the Shuttle Advance fare described above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You mean as with Apex and SuperAdvance?

I don't think everyone would have been expecting the policy that followed the years after privatization where the TOCs scrapped Super Saver tickets and introduced a new range of advance fares, forcing people to either pay for the more expensive Saver (which also became more heavily restricted on some routes) or be tied to a specific train. Back in the days of the BR advance fares were available but this was in addition to Super Saver tickets and even where the Super Saver was scrapped and the replacement had to be booked in advance, it wasn't tied to a specific train.

 

[Deerfold]

I really didn't want to get into this analysis of the T&Cs again, but rather respond to the OP's interest in greater flexibility. But . . . That is a factually correct analysis of the Conditions, But it's NOT REMOTELY the same thing as the Advance ticket having some residual value for travel.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but my response to the OP's suggestion was that the ticket in itself (and not another ticket, after going to exchange it at a booking office for another that is equally restrictive) has no value if I want to travel slightly earlier or later.

To be pragmatic, rather than refer to conditions, the most likely reason for choosing to travel 30 mins before or after, when there is a free choice, is after unexpectedly meeting an aquaintance on the concourse and preferring to travel with them - going off to the booking hall rather breaks that sense of comraderie after which we might as well just travel seperately.

This is NOT a thread about the poorly publicised Conditions which a disinterested passenger would find inpenetrably inconsistent.

I wasn't trying to suggest they were the same, merely making it clear there were some options for changing the time of travel without losing the full ticket value - I realise with significantly less flexibility than the OP or you propose.

Personally my most likely reason to want to travel earlier is simply that I've arrived at my station earlier than planned (before the Eureka timetable change my recommended local connection usually got into Leeds before the train before the one I was heading for had left (but with less time than the recommended minimum connection time).

I can see the attractions of such a ticket having some residual value but I'm not sure there's much in it for a TOC - if this was possible then potentially far more people would buy advances when they weren't sure which train they'd be getting so having the chance to pay far less than normal but having only to risk a minimal fee if they caught a different train.

 

[Zoe]

Would a TOC actually be able to introduce such a fare if it wanted to? The terms and conditions of advance fares require travel on booked train only so I'd have thought a new category would need to be introduced. Wouldn't there need to be some agreement for this?

 

[Deerfold]

You can already buy travel insurance to go with your advanced ticket. e.g.:

http://www.raileasy.co.uk/making-a-booking/insurance-tandcs
http://www.thetrainline.com/buytick...yDetails/Policy_Summary_TOCs_FINAL_Dec_07.pdf

But that's covering something else entirely - these policies do not allow you to change your travel plans on a whim which is presumably why dcsprior said they would be like an insurance payment.

{OT: Looking at the Ts&Cs of the raileasy one theres a rather arbitrary disclaimer of anything caused as result of HIV/Aids (but nothing similar for other long term debilitating diseases)}.