Experience at Liverpool/Sheffield booking offices

[RJ]

Good morning,

I have responsibility for TVMs within Northern Rail, and I am most concerned to read about the problems 'RJ' has had with the OPR Super Off Peak Return ticket through the TVM and ticket office at Liverpool Lime St.

A number of points to make:

1. I see 'tony mac' has had correspondence from our customer relations team who in 2011 have suggested I would look into this error. I am sorry to report that this must have slipped through the net and I would like to offer my apologies, I will do my best to redress this and fix the fault.

2. I have checked this journey in our internal system 'Journey Planner' for departures for Lime St to Shenstone and indeed the Super Off Peak ticket is shown as being barred, it gives the following text as guidance:

"Not valid on outward journey, Affected by time restriction from 16:30 until 19:30 at all stations for providing TOC and sector. Invalid on leg 2 (Stafford to Lichfield T V). Affected by restriction LH"

Upon checking restriction LH in the ATOC reference manual, (an ATOC online tool for retailers to check restrictions and other such things), it states the following:

"Restriction LH - Not valid for travel on services timed to depart the origin station on the ticket between 16:30 and 19:30 in either direction unless a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time".

However if I try to depart Lime St for example on the 15:48, (so before the time restriction), it still suggests that this ticket is invalid, that is clearly incorrect.

The TVMs data feed comes from Journey Planner hence the reason the TVM does not show the ticket, (although there are a few other things I also need to check on that point that I will not bore you with).

So in summary:

1. I can see why it caused problems at both the ticket office and TVM at Lime St, I'm really sorry about that 'RJ';
2. I am not quite sure why I missed this when first reported (call it 'being human' I guess);
2. There is an error in the data feed it seems, I will look to rectify this with colleagues in Northern, London Midland and our TVM supplier if required, and hopefully update the forum on progress;

Happy to discuss further of course on this matter.

Regards

Ian Borthwick
Revenue Projects Manager
Northern Rail

Thank you for the explanation you have provided. It's all water under the bridge - London Midland have agreed to reimburse me the difference between the Off Peak Return and Super Off Peak Return. As a ticket office clerk, I knew all about this problem and sold tickets according to the restriction code text, so I am disappointed that nobody in the ticket office or travel centre was prepared to sell me the ticket, although the clerks were extremely friendly in their demeanor.

Hopefully this issue can be fixed as quickly as ATOC had the "problem" with the Off Peak Hertford East Cross London tickets being valid by any train on the outward portion fixed. This was corrected within the booking engines and TVMs rather sharpish when it was found that I was using this ticket during the morning peak, proving that where there is a will, something can be done about it promptly!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

So Liverpool Travel Centre are giving routing advice and selling tickets based on a 1997 paper Routing Guide? Hmmm. Does anyone fancy to asking them about the possible ways to get to Rugeley TV from the Wigan area?

It's a pity they don't still use the 1997 Fares Manual as well.

 

[johnnycache]

I work for Southern and used to be a director of NRE

I just tried Liverpool Lime Street to Lichfield Trent Valley on the NRE mobile site
for tomorrow (Monday 04 March)

It gives the super off-peak fare of £16.40 for the 1448 (change at Stafford) but the off-peak fare of £22.70 for the 1548

This is consistent with the explanation given above that the super off-peak fare is not given if there is a change of train after 1630 (in this case the 1655 Stafford Lichfield)

I would like to draw this to the attention of NRE - are there any other good examples I could use?

 

[soil]

It's a pity they don't still use the 1997 Fares Manual as well.

The current RG is supposed to be used with the 1997 fares manual, not vice versa.

 

[RJ]

I work for Southern and used to be a director of NRE

I just tried Liverpool Lime Street to Lichfield Trent Valley on the NRE mobile site
for tomorrow (Monday 04 March)

It gives the super off-peak fare of £16.40 for the 1448 (change at Stafford) but the off-peak fare of £22.70 for the 1548

This is consistent with the explanation given above that the super off-peak fare is not given if there is a change of train after 1630 (in this case the 1655 Stafford Lichfield)

I would like to draw this to the attention of NRE - are there any other good examples I could use?

London - Liverpool, though I'm finding it very difficult to filter NRE so it only shows London Midland services. At present, it claims the cheapest fare for leaving Euston on the LM 15:46 to Crewe is £144.50, the Any Permitted Anytime Single, even when London Midland is selected as the TOC of choice and the route is filtered via Stoke-on-Trent.

Other London Midland priced Super Off Peak fares, such as Milton Keynes Central to stations on the Cross City lines in Birmingham, involving a change of trains between 16:30 and 19:30 appear to be affected.

It's a problem affecting NRE, WebTIS powered booking engines, Assertis powered booking engines, booking office TiS systems including at least Tribute which I used when I was a booking office clerk and FasTIS which Northern Rail use and probably various other systems.

 

[island]

The wording of the restriction was changed recently in the PDF unless I am mistaken. Is it potentially possible that the electronic version was not so changed?

 

[tony_mac]

The wording was only 'clarified' - it has always had the same meaning

(From 2009)

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to DEPART any station between 1630 and 1930 in either direction unless a connecting service is
being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Surely even that wording is ambiguous? Not valid to depart any station - what about if the train has stops en route?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[greatkingrat]

The problem is that the human readable form of the restriction code is not what the booking engines use. If you look at the ATOC fares data feed, you can see the computer-readable version of each restriction code.

In this case, the evening restriction for code LH is simply expressed as "not valid departing any station between 1630-1930". The restriction data doesn't contain the easement that allows you to change trains between 1630-1930 if you started the journey before 1630.

The electronic restriction format is fairly limited, so I am not sure it is even possible to get this restriction working in the way that was intended.

 

[Paul Kelly]

One problem with implementing this restriction electronically is that it is more or less unenforceable on the return portion, because break of journey is permitted. As long as you have started the journey at some time in the past (even if, for example, you travelled just one station along the journey three weeks ago), the journey has been "begun at a valid time", and the ticket is then unrestricted in the evening peak.

This doesn't apply to the outward portion because break of journey is not permitted on it. It should be noted though that the data feed ATOC supplies to booking engines does not contain any information on whether BoJ is prohibited on the outward portion of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak returns. It simply shows them as always having BoJ permitted; you need to have access to the human readable text to be able to see that BoJ is actually prohibited on the outward portion.

 

[island]

"Not valid to depart any station" to "not valid to depart the origin station shown on the ticket" is far more than clarifying!

 

[tony_mac]

"Not valid to depart any station" to "not valid to depart the origin station shown on the ticket" is far more than clarifying!

The intended meaning of both statements is identical, so I am not sure what point you are making.

 

[island]

I can't agree.

Consider a train departing Liverpool Lime Street at 1545 and Nuneaton at 1631. (Let's keep it simple, if unrealistic.) This train "departs any station between 1630 and 1930" but it does not depart "Liverpool Lime Street between 1630 and 1930".

 

[tony_mac]

I did say 'the intended meaning'. The rest of the wording implies it was obviously meant to be valid - the journey planners, timetables, train staff and London Midland customer services all agreed that it was valid.

Nothing has changed in the acceptance, only the wording of the restriction (which has introduced another ambiguity, but as bb21 said, that's another can of worms....).

 

[crosscity]

So I was in Liverpool again fairly recently. Wishing to return towards home, I chose to buy a Super Off Peak ticket from Liverpool to Lichfield and spend the time travelling finding a cheap way to complete the journey, starting with the 16:22 TPE service as far as Manchester. Without wishing to go into too much detail, this is the gist of the story.

It was 16:00 and I went to the ticket office, asking for a Super Off Peak Return to Shenstone. Long story short, they were adamant the ticket wasn't valid at that time and so at 16:06, I gave up trying and went to the TVM.

I did a recent post on Shenstone/Lichfield to Liverpool permitted routes. Providing you don't travel via Birmingham then via Manchester is a valid route for either a Liverpool-Shenstone or Liverpool-Lichfield ticket.

If you want to travel Liverpool-Manchester-Birmingham-Lichfield, then only a Liverpool-Lichfield TV ticket will do because Shenstone has Birmingham and Lichfield as routing points, but Lichfield TV has only itsself. Birmingham-Liverpool maps do NOT allow travel via Manchester, but Lichfield-Liverpool maps do, and via Birmingham too!

Whatever the permitted routes, going to a booking office and being refused a ticket sounds out of order. I thought a booking office had to sell you a specific ticket if you ask for it, but don't ask for advice on its validity.

 

[t0ffeeman]

I really think that RJ needs to employed by one of the TOCS rather than appearing on here. Would someone or Barry Doe give him a good job.

 

[Clip]

He should be a ticket trainer BUT its nto giving him the job that would be the hard thing it would be finding time to let staff have time off and get cover for them which would be the pain in the neck seeing how booking offices are cutting back on hours and such like, the GPR can only cover one station at a time

 

[Sammy h]

Hmm.

I wouldn't trust any ticket office to sell me the ticket I want. I try to buy online (using smartphone) and collect from the TVM.

Is this an option for you?

Wow. We aren't all that bad? Silly comment.

 

[LexyBoy]

Wow. We aren't all that bad? Silly comment.

I'll back you up

I've found most ticket offices to be competent and helpful. On occasion I've been sold Advance fares which are difficult or impossible to obtain online.

I'm distrustful of TVMs, and even online booking sites can make it very hard to find all the fares (as mentioned in this thread), especially for the novice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder what happens if you split tickets and your original 'journey' starts before 16:30....

Can ... worms ...

Depends on your definition of "journey". YMMV

Strange one this - it would be perfectly clear if the restriction simply said "Not valid for travel on services timed to depart the origin station on the ticket between 16:30 and 19:30 in either direction", but because the text "unless a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" is still there it reads as if it's specifically allowing the ticket to be used as long as the journey as a whole started at a time allowed by restriction LH.

I would say that any restriction applies to the ticket and cannot extend to the journey (i.e. applying parts of the restriction to other tickets used), and that here the "unless..." part serves no purpose.

 

[sheff1]

Wow. We aren't all that bad? Silly comment.

From bitter personal experiences going back over 20+ years, I most certainly would not trust Sheffield ticket office to sell me the tickets I want.

As I have no obvious way of knowing which ticket offices nationwide abide by their franchise conditions and sell the full range of tickets when requested and which ones adopt the Sheffield approach of making up their own rules and claiming the NRCoC etc do not apply to them, then I, too, book online wherever possible.

So, in my view, the comment is perfectly reasonable. However, if you can provide a list of which ticket offices can guarantee to always sell the requested tickets without quibble, please let us know and I will bear that in mind when I am in those locations.

 

[bb21]

So, in my view, the comment is perfectly reasonable. However, if you can provide a list of which ticket offices can guarantee to always sell the requested tickets without quibble, please let us know and I will bear that in mind when I am in those locations.

Leicester never refused me any request, however strange they might be. They are happy to look it up without prompt if they don't know what to do. I have witnessed staff selling cheap returns then exceeding one way to the more expensive route when appropriate, without being asked, and were perfectly happy to sell me a combination a few years back along similar lines to one of RJ's requests for a morning train on a weekday. I think they would do well in a mystery shopping exercise.

St Pancakes is another one I highly recommend.

 

[Sammy h]

From bitter personal experiences going back over 20+ years, I most certainly would not trust Sheffield ticket office to sell me the tickets I want.

As I have no obvious way of knowing which ticket offices nationwide abide by their franchise conditions and sell the full range of tickets when requested and which ones adopt the Sheffield approach of making up their own rules and claiming the NRCoC etc do not apply to them, then I, too, book online wherever possible.

So, in my view, the comment is perfectly reasonable. However, if you can provide a list of which ticket offices can guarantee to always sell the requested tickets without quibble, please let us know and I will bear that in mind when I am in those locations.

Your comment was 'I wouldn't trust any ticket office to sell me the ticket I want'

That to me says you do not trust any ticket office to sell you the ticket you want. It was only a tongue in cheek post, I apologise if it has upset you in anyway. I just thought it was a pretty vague comment to make...

 

[sheff1]

That comment was not mine.

I am not upset, just pointing out that some Ticket Offices seem unwilling to sell the tickets requested and put forward imaginary 'rules' as to why they are not obliged to sell them and hence, without knowledge of which Ticket Offices are not like that, it sounds like a good idea to be safe rather than sorry ... especially if you are someone like RJ to whom the original quote from soil was directed.

I note that bb21 has recommended Leicester and they did, indeed, go to great lengths to issue me a flexirover which was not valid anywhere near the East Midlands. I would not attempt to buy such a ticket at Sheffield .
I am less sure about the St Pancras recommendation as the clerk there insisted in selling me a ticket from Elstree rather than the Boundary Zone 6 one I had requested. They also asserted that such a ticket was valid on a fast train in conjunction with a non-season ticket. I only got the ticket I had requested after a manager/supervisor was called - this is exactly the sort of hassle I would prefer to avoid.

Edit: It would appear St Pancras are not alone http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=80393

 

[Sammy h]

Another point on this subject is that I think it is also down to the individual you get at the booking office. Although I have heard only bad news about Sheffield there are some offices which have staff that will bend over backwards to help you, but other staff that just don't want to know.

 

[tony_mac]

Good morning,

I have responsibility for TVMs within Northern Rail, and I am most concerned to read about the problems 'RJ' has had with the OPR Super Off Peak Return ticket through the TVM and ticket office at Liverpool Lime St.
...
There is an error in the data feed it seems, I will look to rectify this with colleagues in Northern, London Midland and our TVM supplier if required, and hopefully update the forum on progress;

I wonder if there is any more news?

I checked the TVM again today; Super off-peaks are still not available.

 

[northwichcat]

Was this a Northern TVM?
For future reference, they are available from Virgin TVMs.

And unlike other stations at Lime Street only the Northern TVM is near the ticket office. The Virgin one is over the other side next to the platform that their trains depart from (away from the Northern revenue blockades.)

 

[Qwerty133]

Leicester never refused me any request, however strange they might be. They are happy to look it up without prompt if they don't know what to do. I have witnessed staff selling cheap returns then exceeding one way to the more expensive route when appropriate, without being asked, and were perfectly happy to sell me a combination a few years back along similar lines to one of RJ's requests for a morning train on a weekday. I think they would do well in a mystery shopping exercise.

St Pancakes is another one I highly recommend.

Where are the staff who staff narborough based out of then as most of them dont seem to be able to copy a 3 digit photocard number correctly. Today the man even had his dog behind the counter with him!!!!!!

 

[transportphoto]

Where are the staff who staff narborough based out of then as most of them dont seem to be able to copy a 3 digit photocard number correctly. Today the man even had his dog behind the counter with him!!!!!!

Just a thought, that if the clerk may have a problem with sight (making a mistake when copying a photocard number), may there be a chance that the dog is an assistance dog? I'm sure most of the clerks do know how to correctly copy down a number.

TP

 

[Qwerty133]

Just a thought, that if the clerk may have a problem with sight (making a mistake when copying a photocard number), may there be a chance that the dog is an assistance dog? I'm sure most of the clerks do know how to correctly copy down a number.

TP

the last three times the 3 digit number has been copied wrong (and differently) and it was a different member of staff each time!! and as much as equality is important is it really a good idea to have a partially sighted person as the only member of staff on the station (opening and locking up, dealing with passengers who need assistance as well as selling tickets)