Right Time punctuality

[A-driver]

FCC have a very odd policy of advertising trains earlier than they are due. For example a number if trains up from peterbourgh and most trains on the up at welwyn north and WGC are advertised 2-3 mins before they are booked to call there-drivers diagrams have a letter 'P, Q or R' in them to indicate this. Not sure why they do this but most confusingly they do it with the up kings Lynn off of Cambridge which is advertised as the xx45 but is booked to depart Cambridge at xx47. I have had people complain to me about the late start and then get the hump that the train is running 2 mins late. They don't seem to understand when I explain that the train will still arrive into London at the advertised time.

As for doors closing early-sorry but if you can't arrive onto the platform at least 30 secs before the train is due then I have no time for you! Nobody is ever that busy that 30secs makes all the difference. As far as I'm concerned you don't have a leg to stand on considering we are talking about relying on watches and clocks being accurate to the second which they are generally not. All it takes is for the drivers /guards watch to be slightly faster than your own one by 10 secs and you miss the train. If you want the flexibility of turning up when you want then its a taxi or car you are after, not a train where you trying to get on dead on departure time will delay the hundreds of other passengers who managed to get to the station in good time!

 

[bronzeonion]

Interesting about the doors close 20 seconds before departure. In Japan, the doors close at exactly the scheduled/published departure time- for example, 10:00 on the dot, though the actual departure time maybe 10:00:15as noted on the employees timetable. There appears to be some additional leeway (20~30 seconds) permitted on departure time on intercity and suburban trains, as long as the delay stays under a minute. Over a minute requires an announced apology from trains staff. Of course, low frequency long distance trains will be held up for if a connecting train is late (within reasonable bounds).

Japan have it right with train punctuality, like I said earlier look after the seconds and the minutes will look after themselves.

 

[island]

Interesting about the doors close 20 seconds before departure. In Japan, the doors close at exactly the scheduled/published departure time- for example, 10:00 on the dot, though the actual departure time maybe 10:00:15as noted on the employees timetable. There appears to be some additional leeway (20~30 seconds) permitted on departure time on intercity and suburban trains, as long as the delay stays under a minute. Over a minute requires an announced apology from trains staff. Of course, low frequency long distance trains will be held up for if a connecting train is late (within reasonable bounds).

And they also have a very decent dwell time.

 

[Sidious]

It made me think there must be a much more simple system… one where… say… trains leave at the timetabled time

The issue is that since the change from slam door without central locking to automatic or slam door with central locking, it is not straightforward. Particularly voyagers and pendolinos seem to have a very slow door closing time, and can take ~1 minute from the initial 'whistle' to the train getting the 'right away' and beginning to move.

Invariably this will mean that either doors close early, or the train pulls away after the timetabled time. You can take your pick which one you want, but having both is unworkable.

 

[TDK]

So you or your mum are never late for anything?

You are good!

No, I am always on time and so is my mum. I have never been late to my train for departure when it has been my fault

But is there any need for the TD money go round?
Are we in the business of running (empty) trains on time or running trains full of people a few minutes late?
If I am on a slow train and I can see a train I am supposed to connect with is nearly at the station I will either put the brake in and slow the train right down to ensure the connection gets in first or ask the guard if he is prepared to wait a minute or 2, most say yes as they know that we (the train crew) can make the time back before it affects any other train.

You won't know that waiting a minute will not delay another service, I wait for no one and the money merry go round is the root cause of these so called connections not being met, admittedly I have had control asking me to wait and I do so but if control does not ask then off I go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because customers have a right to expect to get what is advertised, not for it to close 20 seconds (or in some cases, up to two minutes) earlier?

Surely if a train is advertised to depart at say 20.00 the wheels should roll at 20.00 and then the customer is getting what is advertised and if you look at the posters on station platforms it clearly states that the doors will close prior to departure once again the customer is getting what is advertised. If someone is not organised enough to get themselves to the platform and are running with a tight margin they only have themselves to blame

 

[Muzer]

I am perfectly happy with doors closing 30 seconds before departure. One minute at Waterloo for the ticket gates closing (? is this (still?) the case?) is also acceptable. But two minutes seems excessive and is bound to cause confusion. I mean, it might be advertised in the timetable and I'd certainly hope it would be advertised at the station, but it won't be advertised on any of the online booking sites nor in the NRT, I would expect.

 

[greatkingrat]

The average passenger does not care what time the train actually starts moving. They are only interested in what time they need to be at the platform to get on the train.

So if a train closes its doors at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00:00, it should be advertised as the 0959, not the 1000, as this is the time that is relevant for passengers.

 

[Sidious]

So if a train closes its doors at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00:00, it should be advertised as the 0959, not the 1000, as this is the time that is relevant for passengers.

This is why the railway have a working timetable which is not always the same as the public timetable.

 

[Mark_H]

Last Sunday I followed the travails of a person on this forum who was on a train from Kings Cross which was booked to connect with the last train to Scarborough from York. The London train was half an hour late, and I was so pleased when he (or she) reported that the branch train was held to make the connection. This is what I would call a common-sense breaking of the rules. I know I would have felt completely let down by the railway to have arrived at York to find the last train left less than five minutes before I arrived. The railwaymen and women working on the ground for the three different organisations involved (NR, EC and FTPE) can pat themselves on the back for doing the right thing for the passenger.

Fairly recently a local train was held at Doncaster for a late-running EC service I was on. I had told the TM my connection time when he came past, he had confirmed that we were unlikely to catch it, and he had then gone away and checked for anyone else making the same connection. As he found a number of people in the same boat, and it was about 90mins til the next (and last) service, he arranged for the train to be held. I thought he was pretty competent and took time to help out a small number of passengers. I did get the impression that if it was just me, it wouldn't have been held, but I suppose that would have been fair enough.

I'm guessing that the decision making process was weighing the number of passengers (and the cost of their taxis) vs the likely disruption, and this late-night local service wasn't going to cause too much bother. I'd agree that having a main-line service held is pretty unlikely, but of course you should expect another service to be along pretty soon on a main line.

Having doors close early is damn annoying (I've been running down stairs to my platform only to hear the dreaded beeping from my intended train a few times), but I don't think there's much to be done about it - trains need to be moving at their advertised times. Doing it the other way round will just produce grumpy-looking commuters pounding on doors to be let in.

 

[Be3G]

The issue is that since the change from slam door without central locking to automatic or slam door with central locking, it is not straightforward. Particularly voyagers and pendolinos seem to have a very slow door closing time, and can take ~1 minute from the initial 'whistle' to the train getting the 'right away' and beginning to move.

Invariably this will mean that either doors close early, or the train pulls away after the timetabled time. You can take your pick which one you want, but having both is unworkable.

Admittedly I haven't used the trains you mention much as my train travel is mostly within London; I'm used to urban commuting stock where the doors close and the train's on its way in next to no time. However, greatkingcat above me has summarised my feelings really: it's a matter of what's relevant to the passenger. If I look at a timetable, to plan a journey, what I need to know more than anything is what time I actually need to be boarding the train at. So my comment about the train leaving at the timetabled time wasn't saying I'd expect a train to delay itself to do so; instead, I feel a timetable would be far more useful if it actually reflected the time of boarding rather than the time of wheels moving.

I am perfectly happy with doors closing 30 seconds before departure. One minute at Waterloo for the ticket gates closing (? is this (still?) the case?) is also acceptable. But two minutes seems excessive and is bound to cause confusion. I mean, it might be advertised in the timetable and I'd certainly hope it would be advertised at the station, but it won't be advertised on any of the online booking sites nor in the NRT, I would expect.

This makes me think of something else too: integrated journey planning engines operated by the likes of TfL, Traveline and Transport Direct, all of which I use regularly. They don't take in to account National Rail minimum connection times or anything like that; instead, they have their own ideas of exactly how long an interchange between any two modes at any particular station takes, and I doubt they include arbitrary door- or gate-closing times. Planning a journey across London, with its huge myriad of journey options, can produce some tight connections, because the planners are designed to find the fastest route between the two selected points at the chosen time. Those tight connections could be scuppered by the timetable subversion we're talking about.

 

[jon0844]

So if a train closes its doors at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00:00, it should be advertised as the 0959, not the 1000, as this is the time that is relevant for passengers.

I think it's still best to have the time it leaves, and you use common sense to get there in good time.

You wouldn't/couldn't turn up for a ferry, plane or indeed Eurostar just a minute before.

I've been late and run for a train. Most of the time I've made it, sometimes not.. But being at the platform at exactly the time the train is supposed to leave is MY fault (likewise this assumption that if it happened to my mum, it would somehow be different - no, it would be her fault too!). Sure, it might have been due to a delayed bus, traffic or whatever - but still not the fault of the railway. FWIW, my mum wouldn't run for the train and would just go for the next service and if it was an advance ticket, she'd likely arrive at the station an hour before and have a coffee/snack - not aim to get there with minutes to spare.

Things are somewhat different at local stations along a line through, where the departure time is often the time the train will arrive - and then you have to add on the dwell time. I guess some people can then get used to this being the case everywhere, but it won't be at a terminal station where the train is starting - nor for Intercity services where the train will have arrived earlier and is due to wait 2-3 minutes in many cases.

I don't see any reason to change anything, rather remind people to think of catching a train as that of any of the above methods of transport.

PS. I also find that journey planners seem to factor in ridiculously long transfer times using LUL, but you're pretty much bound to honour them if you were to find yourself delayed and missing a future service (perhaps with an advance ticket). Even the time given to get from King's Cross to St Pancras is quite laughable, but if you just timed things knowing you can cross over in 45 seconds (and you can if you're willing to break a sweat) then good luck when your train comes in late or there's a crowd of tourists in your way...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Girlfriends opinion, i always make sure i arrive in plenty of time for a train, if i miss it is my own fault. I treat that opinion on anyone else too so trains should not wait for people. However for connections they should wait as the person is not late the railway is.

Now i give this opinion because it is from a passenger who uses the railway not a staff or enthusiast as we would get on here.

 

[jb]

The average passenger does not care what time the train actually starts moving. They are only interested in what time they need to be at the platform to get on the train.

So if a train closes its doors at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00:00, it should be advertised as the 0959, not the 1000, as this is the time that is relevant for passengers.

Says who?

I am pretty positive if you ask the average passenger the following questions you will get the following answers:

Q: What does the timetable show?
A: The time that the train leaves the station.

Q: When do you need to be on the platform?
A: Er... before the train departs.

 

[Buttsy]

A good film to watch is 'The Pain Train', one of BTF's finest. Really shows how small delays can add up to significant late running.

Also has a good glimpse of a 50 where it should of been, the WCML, and not running around the GWML...

 

[RPM]

Japan have it right with train punctuality, like I said earlier look after the seconds and the minutes will look after themselves.

I seem to recall a fatal accident in Japan a few years ago where a driver exceeded the line speed on a curve. It was determined afterwards that pressure to keep time was a major factor. Pehaps we shouldn't try to be too much like Japan.

 

[bronzeonion]

I seem to recall a fatal accident in Japan a few years ago where a driver exceeded the line speed on a curve. It was determined afterwards that pressure to keep time was a major factor. Pehaps we shouldn't try to be too much like Japan.

The driver took those actions because of the 'retraining scheme' that JR West gave their drivers for ridiculously minor mistakes like using the emergency brake by accident or an overrun (both happened in that incident). The scheme isn't training at all, it involved being intimidated by a bloke shouting at you and doing the gardening and toilet cleaning for a week at HQ.

Also the curve did not have a safety system installed for some reason so the train did not get tripped when speeding.

 

[RPM]

The driver took those actions because of the 'retraining scheme' that JR West gave their drivers for ridiculously minor mistakes like using the emergency brake by accident or an overrun (both happened in that incident). The scheme isn't training at all, it involved being intimidated by a bloke shouting at you and doing the gardening and toilet cleaning for a week at HQ.

Also the curve did not have a safety system installed for some reason so the train did not get tripped when speeding.

Aye indeed, so perhaps we will draw our inspiration from a different railway!

 

[bronzeonion]

A good film to watch is 'The Pain Train', one of BTF's finest. Really shows how small delays can add up to significant late running.

Also has a good glimpse of a 50 where it should of been, the WCML, and not running around the GWML...

I've linked that in a previous thread before, a bloody good film that is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E6CQUrP7Lg

And here it is
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Aye indeed, so perhaps we will draw our inspiration from a different railway!

Well I see nothing wrong with being more focused on keeping to time down to the second when you can, just as long as safety standards do not drop at the same time.

 

[gswindale]

The average passenger does not care what time the train actually starts moving. They are only interested in what time they need to be at the platform to get on the train.

So if a train closes its doors at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00:00, it should be advertised as the 0959, not the 1000, as this is the time that is relevant for passengers.

Rubbish.
If I'm catching the 10:00 train, I expect to be on it & for it to be leaving the platform at 10:00. If it is advertised as departing at 09:59 but doesn't leave until 10:00 then it is late.
What exactly is the difference between being advised to be at the airport 45 minutes before a flight (allows for ticket check, security check & for all passengers to be ready for take off to schedule) than being at the station in time for the train to depart to schedule?

The clue for the less intelligent is the little "d" next to most stations which stands for departure. It does not stand for "get here about now as the train won't be leaving for a few minutes whilst we wait for all the people who don't understand the conxept of time keeping".

 

[317666]

Not sure why they do this but most confusingly they do it with the up kings Lynn off of Cambridge which is advertised as the xx45 but is booked to depart Cambridge at xx47.

Reminds me of the first up off-peak, which used to be the 09:15 from Cambridge. Always used to leave five minutes late so it became the 09:20, then at some point an extra minute was added and it's now the 09:21!

 

[FGW_DID]

The average passenger does not care what time the train actually starts moving. They are only interested in what time they need to be at the platform to get on the train.

So if a train closes its doors at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00:00, it should be advertised as the 0959, not the 1000, as this is the time that is relevant for passengers.

The very passengers who will then complain and send abusive tweets to the TOC because the train departed at 10:00 and not the advertised time of 09:59!

I agree two minutes before is very excessive, when I was working as a dispatcher (with slam door HST), doors were shut 40 seconds before, this gave us enough time to carry out the train safety check as is required by the rulebook and get the train away on time. So in your example above:

Doors would be shut and locked at 09:59:20
Dispatch staff would then carry out the train safety check.
The second tip would then be given to the guard
The guard then gives the right away to the driver ( 2 on the buzzer)
Driver acknowledges the RA (repeat 2 on the buzzer) then carries out what ever actions he is required to do. (DRA, brakes, power etc)
10:00 the train should be taking power and starting to roll,out of the platform.

I think a lot of people assume that the train starts rolling the very second the doors shut!

 

[185143]

Some TOC's are better at this than others!

For Example: First TransPennine Express, ran onto platform, doors were not even shut, guard didn't let me on, missed the train.

Northern Rail on a sunday: Ran for the train, not naming routes or train times, and the once hourly train was actually moving, albeit not very fast, and the driver actually stopped the train and opened the doors to let me on!

 

[A-driver]

Some TOC's are better at this than others!

For Example: First TransPennine Express, ran onto platform, doors were not even shut, guard didn't let me on, missed the train.

Northern Rail on a sunday: Ran for the train, not naming routes or train times, and the once hourly train was actually moving, albeit not very fast, and the driver actually stopped the train and opened the doors to let me on!

I think that is dependant on the circumstances but you may have answered your own point with saying it was an hourly service.

During the rush hours I will never re release doors or wait for people. Even at stations like grange park, st Neots, Ali Pali etc where you can easily see people running onto the platform/down the footbridge etc I will close the doors as soon as clear as close to 15secs to departure regardless of those running-the time table is too intense to wait and with 5 min turnarounds at moorgate in the peak you end up with each train getting later and later-it dosnt take much to loose up to 10 mins for no particular reason in the peak.

However, late at night etc I'm a lot more flexible-I have stopped before and let late runners on through the cab door if needed often for more vulnerable passengers (ie single women late at night, not the group of half a dozen drunks).

 

[LE Greys]

I think that is dependant on the circumstances but you may have answered your own point with saying it was an hourly service.

During the rush hours I will never re release doors or wait for people. Even at stations like grange park, st Neots, Ali Pali etc where you can easily see people running onto the platform/down the footbridge etc I will close the doors as soon as clear as close to 15secs to departure regardless of those running-the time table is too intense to wait and with 5 min turnarounds at moorgate in the peak you end up with each train getting later and later-it dosnt take much to loose up to 10 mins for no particular reason in the peak.

However, late at night etc I'm a lot more flexible-I have stopped before and let late runners on through the cab door if needed often for more vulnerable passengers (ie single women late at night, not the group of half a dozen drunks).

And good for you. From the opposite perspective, I as a passenger make absolutely sure that I'm on the platform in plenty of time if I'm after the last train of the day, at Berney Arms or whatever means that I would be stranded if I missed the train, but tend to be a bit more blasè about the 14:28 from Hitchin to King's Cross, when there's plenty of other trains available and plenty of time to catch them. I might get a bit annoyed if I missed it by 3 seconds, but that's mostly me being annoyed with myself for not being fast enough. "Minus" connections at Cambridge don't really count with this, that's more of a sport. The one thing that does wind me up is if I arrive at a station and have to queue for ages for a ticket and miss the train because of this, but that's really a different issue.

 

[Muzer]

Speaking of being late, I was hoping to catch the 1925 today from Winchester (but it didn't matter if I missed it, there was another going where I wanted in about 8 minutes), walking from somewhere. It was quite tight, and I wouldn't have made it if it had been on time (it was a couple of minutes late) - but the main issue is I couldn't find the entrance! I haven't been to Winchester before, and when I arrived a few hours earlier, the ticket office was open. It took me about three tries to find the correct way in

As it turned out, the bus at the other end was badly-timed for this conneciton, I actually saw the later train going past many minutes before the bus even left!

 

[D1009]

Some TOC's are better at this than others!

Or is it the different train characteristics? I experience this in the West Country. where on a Voyager you feel the train powering up as soon as the close doors signal is given, and when the RA is given, the train moves immediately. On an HST, particularly FGW it seems like an eternity after the RA is given before the train starts to move.

 

[bronzeonion]

Or is it the different train characteristics? I experience this in the West Country. where on a Voyager you feel the train powering up as soon as the close doors signal is given, and when the RA is given, the train moves immediately. On an HST, particularly FGW it seems like an eternity after the RA is given before the train starts to move.

It sounds as if the Voyager is powering up but it is just the reverser being put into forward.

 

[313103]

The average passenger does not care what time the train actually starts moving. They are only interested in what time they need to be at the platform to get on the train.

So if a train closes its doors at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00:00, it should be advertised as the 0959, not the 1000, as this is the time that is relevant for passengers.

Then if it is advertised at 09:59 and doors are closed at 09:59:30 and starts moving at 10:00 it is then leaving 1 minute late.

Also if they do advertise it as a 09:59 departure and the train leaves at 09:59 and is then missed by the passenger then surely its the same old story yet again.

The time that is relevant is the departure time of the train, not the arrival time of the passenger on the platform to get said train.

How many of you out their who have caught airplanes arrived at the departure gate at 10:00 for a 10:00 flight managed to board it? We all know the answer to that. You just wouldnt do it, so why is the train any different?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Rubbish.
If I'm catching the 10:00 train, I expect to be on it & for it to be leaving the platform at 10:00. If it is advertised as departing at 09:59 but doesn't leave until 10:00 then it is late.
What exactly is the difference between being advised to be at the airport 45 minutes before a flight (allows for ticket check, security check & for all passengers to be ready for take off to schedule) than being at the station in time for the train to depart to schedule?

The clue for the less intelligent is the little "d" next to most stations which stands for departure. It does not stand for "get here about now as the train won't be leaving for a few minutes whilst we wait for all the people who don't understand the conxept of time keeping".

Sorry i never got to your point in thread before i posted. But i have put more or less the same as you.......... Sorry for semi duplication. perhaps if i hadnt had to go to bed at 00:30 i might have read this firstly.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

How many of you out their who have caught airplanes arrived at the departure gate at 10:00 for a 10:00 flight managed to board it? We all know the answer to that. You just wouldnt do it, so why is the train any different?

Because it is not an aeroplane although Eurostar seems to think it is.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
If I'm catching the 10:00 train, I expect to be on it & for it to be leaving the platform at 10:00. If it is advertised as departing at 09:59 but doesn't leave until 10:00 then it is late.....

To the average passenger it doesn't matter in the slightest if the 10:00 leaves at 10:00:00, 10:00:59 or, indeed, 10:15:26. What matters to the passenger is that it arrives at that passengers destination on time (or early). Likewise, what matters to the operator is not necessarily what time it actually leaves, but what time it reaches the various "pinch points". Timetabling that does not allow for a little operational flexibility in departures is always going to run the risk of alienating the paying customer.