Awaiting Prosecution Unit Letter from Northern Rail

[Britcliffe]

Ok, So i got stopped on the way out of Blackburn Train Station a few week ago, and was classed as Fare Dodging.
But i would first like some advice, I feel that i was not in the wrong , As some people are aware on here Blackburn Train Station is sadly badly set out , I went on the train expecting to pay i had my money in may hand with £5 note awaiting to pay, and long behold the conductor did not stop to charge me, I proceeded down the platform to expect to be stopped at the bottom of the platform as they usual stop you their to pay , I spotted a staff member and I APPROACHED HIM to pay, not knowing he was a revenue officer (i thought he was a ticket man) he took my details and rudely threatened court summons and took alot of strange details. All i am wondering is , do i pay the fine or do i have a chance of actually countering this ?
I have been in contact with the Head Of Service Quality who told me straight to wait for the letter and things will be taken further from there.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

As I've said before, I am not surprised, and I knew Northern would enjoy implementing a revenue block at Blackburn, having visited the station I know exactly what you mean about the layout.

O All i am wondering is , do i pay the fine or do i have a chance of actually countering this ?

You've not been fined yet!

Wait for the letter and things will be taken further from there.

They may ask you for your version of events, they will then use this, along with your statement taken on the day, to decide whether or not to prosecute, they may charge you a £80 fixed fee, or they may drop the case.

What station did you start your journey at?

If it was an unstaffed station they would struggle to successfully prosecute you under Byelaw 18 but they may still prosecute you under the RoRA (see the Prosecutions section of our Fares Guide - I've given you access to it).

If you boarded at a staffed station, Northern are probably going to ask for the £80 fixed fee for not buying before you board. It's not a Penalty Fare, nor a fine, there is no legislation supporting it, but it's their policy.

If someone is caught lying about the station you boarded at (Northern have means to check this, e.g. by issuing 'vouchers' to people at smaller stations such as Mill Hill, when a revenue block is in place at the larger station such as Blackburn) then a successful prosecution would be likely, in which case it is advisable to offer an out of court settlement.

 

[bb21]

and long behold the conductor did not stop to charge me

In addition to what yorkie has said, I am slightly confused by this.

Do you mean that the guard walked past you on the train but did not stop to ask to check people's tickets, or that he did not show up at all?

 

[142094]

Quite suprised that you've chosen to talk to the Head of Service Quality straight away - I'm even more suprised that you were able to find out who he was in such a short space of time.

 

[185]

Learnt a little more today from a former colleague who is involved in an investigation into one train company. At the end of 2012, the company introduced a scheme where customers are targeted for failing to buy tickets. Looking through the policy, it outwardly appears to be a very fair process; although he has concerns that staff conducting the operations have misinterpreted the scheme, failing to take account of the differing layout at many stations.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I went on the train expecting to pay i had my money in may hand with £5 note awaiting to pay, and long behold the conductor did not stop to charge me.

When the guard came through the carriage, can I ask why you didn't just say

'Excuse me, I need to buy a ticket please.'

 

[Britcliffe]

In addition to what yorkie has said, I am slightly confused by this.

Do you mean that the guard walked past you on the train but did not stop to ask to check people's tickets, or that he did not show up at all?

The guard walked past me completely with out asking any customer who went on the train.

The train station i started my journey off from was "Rishton" , Rishton is an unmaned station , and there is no stops in between rishton and blackburn. The conductor did not come to me or anyone else that i am aware of he just walked the full length of the train. Many of us where confused of this ? .
--

When the guard came through the carriage, can I ask why you didn't just say

'Excuse me, I need to buy a ticket please.'

He walked past so quick that by the time i realised he was already gone. Unfortunately this conductor i have seen many times fail to award tickets to customers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The guard walked past me completely with out asking any customer who went on the train.

The train station i started my journey off from was "Rishton" , Rishton is an unmaned station , and there is no stops in between rishton and blackburn. The conductor did not come to me or anyone else that i am aware of he just walked the full length of the train. Many of us where confused of this ? .
--



He walked past so quick that by the time i realised he was already gone. Unfortunately this conductor i have seen many times fail to award tickets to customers.

Unfortunately it is your responsibility to stop him to ask for a ticket. However i do sympathise with you some conductors walk straight past me while i am getting my wallet out, walk past so fast you don't get chance to say anything.

 

[34D]

Unfortunately it is your responsibility to stop him to ask for a ticket. However i do sympathise with you some conductors walk straight past me while i am getting my wallet out, walk past so fast you don't get chance to say anything.

I'm not sure I agree with this. It could well be that the conductor is walking through to deal with a disabled alarm, or to go see the driver (I know they shouldn't), or count passengers. If every passenger stopped him it would soon delay things.

The 'first opportunity to pay' is surely when the guard comes round with his avantix machine asking for "tickets", not when he is doing other duties (discussion point, not a statement)?

 

[bb21]

I think it is a bit of a grey area as to whether it constitutes an opportunity. It can be argued either way. The thing is if you'd stopped him and asked but told that he couldn't sell you a ticket then you have definitely fulfilled your obligations.

To err on the side of caution, I think you did have an opportunity, although I can see your side of the argument.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The 'first opportunity to pay' is surely when the guard comes round with his avantix machine asking for "tickets", not when he is doing other duties (discussion point, not a statement)?

Continuing the theme of 'discussion point', if this were pursued, I think most would recognise that the opportunity for the traveller to 'declare the journey' will be when the conductor / guard made himself visible to you in the carriage that you were travelling in.

Calling out to him 'Excuse me, I need to get a ticket please' as he passes is clearly the right thing to do, he might reply 'Sorry, but I have a disabled alarm / other job ..(insert reason)..to attend to, he might just walk on by, but by calling his attention you will have fullfilled your obligation.

 

[hughesfowler]

I will be interested to see what the letter says if you actually get one, please let us know and I am sure better advice can be given. Did you buy a ticket before you left the station or did I miss that bit ?

 

[Britcliffe]

Hello, Because i have been in contact with many northern rail staff members , both customer relations and sent many and had replies from Pete Myers "Head of Service Quality at Northern Rail" . That it looks like the emails have gone in my favour.

The letter i got today stated that this is an "Extremely Lenient" step and that this is a formal warning and i just have to pay the £1.80 outstanding payment.

If you would like to contest it or complain before the letter has got to you, i fully urge you to contact Pete.Myers@northernrail.org .
He is pretty good and will investigate all the situations and is aware of what is occurring around the company.

Thanks for you help ! and hopefully less people will not just pay the fine.

 

[island]

Thanks for telling us about your outcome and I am sure you will be more careful in the future!

 

[bb21]

I agree. Good result.

It might have worked for you, however if everyone suddenly starts writing to him, I doubt that he would let all of them off. It will depend on the individual circumstances and not a one-size-fit-all solution.

 

[142094]

Agreed, I'm sure if a lot of people start doing so he'll be forwarding on the details to the Prosecutions team at Bradford and getting them to deal with it.

 

[neilmc]

Agreed, I'm sure if a lot of people start doing so he'll be forwarding on the details to the Prosecutions team at Bradford and getting them to deal with it.

Well possibly but experience tells us that anyone who makes a huge fuss, using their industry contacts, this website and the press has a good chance of getting any action or penalty dropped even if they were clearly in the wrong (not saying the OP was in this case) whereas the meek person who has been unjustly targeted for the rail industry's own failings gets stung. Much the same with banks, insurance companies and holidays, they'll often pay up to shut you up. Just how it is.