Fare Evasion, Received Fixed Penalty Notice, in a Different Name?

[Chronicle]

Hello guys,

Sincerely hoping the members here will be able to assist. Long story cut short I was running late from Blackburn - Preston and didn't take out the fare going. I was expecting to pay for the ticket on the train though the ticket officer didn't show up there either on that day. I figured fair enough and went around the back way as I usually make my around from there.

On this occasion however there were ticket officers which completely took me by surprise. Nevertheless I didn't mind as I was fully prepared to pay for my ticket at the machines which are just inside of the entrance. I told the officers I didn't have a ticket as I was running late (The guards at Blackburn waves us through as well) and no officer on the train had shown up either, and so I offered to purchase the ticket there and then now. However, the offers wouldn't let me, and were insistent on taking my name down and other details.

He advised I would receive a letter within 7 days asking for the £5.20 single way and should I pay this no further charge would be incurred. Fair enough I thought, and went on my way.

Well, surprise surprise I didn't receive the letter. I completely forgot and figured the guy at the station didn't do anything with the details about the incident and fast forward 5 or so Months and I have a nice letter regarding a 'Fixed Penalty Notice' of £80 along with the fare so that's £85.20 in order to avoid being taken to court. Received this letter today and if paid within 28 days no further action will be taken.

I'm a little taken aback, and miffed. However, I fully accept the responsibility and my stupidness in that I should have chased them up within the 7 days finding a way to pay.

That being said, the letter seems to be in a different name to mine, so can they do anything? Example, my real name is 'Mr <Forename> <surname>' whereas the name of the letter is 'Mr ifferent forename> <A Middlename (Not mine)> <Real Surname>'. So Real name is 'Mr Joseph Bloggs' and this fare is in 'Mr Joe Adam Bloggs', to give you an idea.

Anything I can do? I'm tempted to just stump up the £80 and be done with it. Then again, they didn't send me the initial letter within 7 days so is there something I can do? From what I've read here I've been 'lucky' to not have it taken to court and be offered the £80.

Cheers guys.

 

[bb21]

I'm a little taken aback, and miffed. However, I fully accept the responsibility and my stupidness in that I should have chased them up within the 7 days finding a way to pay.

Your responsibility is to purchase a ticket before you board the train. Your stupidity is not doing so therefore you broke the Railway Byelaws, a criminal offence.

You need to understand the serious nature of your offence and it probably will not work if you try and pick holes with regard to the name on the letter, etc.

 

[Swirlz]

Can you scan a picture of the fixed penalty notice please?

I am interested how it has been worded.

Does it state "Administrative Penalty" or "Fixed Penalty Notice" ?

 

[LexyBoy]

Your stupidity is not doing so therefore you broke the Railway Byelaws, a criminal offence.

I would say that that is ignorance, not stupidity. Not knowing the Byelaws is not evidence of stupidity, and where it has always been accepted that tickets can be bought on-board it is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is acceptable.

In reality I don't think OP would have been able to pay just the fare, it seems a common tactic for RPIs to claim that passengers will be asked to pay the fare by post (whether from a genuine belief or wishing to avoid confrontation).

 

[Chapeltom]

I think given the fact you have committed an offence, you should be quite glad that Northern are only wanting you to pay £85.20.

This scheme has not been running that long, before it you would have been taken to court or forced to try and agree some kind of out of court settlement. I suggest that the £85.20 is paid without a fuss, I do think its quite reasonable considering Northern were at one stage prosecuting left right and centre.

I'm sure you are aware Northern really are clamping down on fare evasion and it is buy before you board if there an opportunity to do.

 

[bb21]

I would say that that is ignorance, not stupidity. Not knowing the Byelaws is not evidence of stupidity, and where it has always been accepted that tickets can be bought on-board it is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is acceptable.

This may have been normal practice for many years, however I believe that Northern put up posters extensively quite a while ago to advise passengers of their responsibility to buy before boarding. There is a TVM at the entrance to Platform 4 as people have mentioned in other threads, and there is a ticket office on the island platform in the middle at Blackburn. There is no reason not to buy a ticket before boarding. In addition, the OP admitted that he left via the underpass at Preston, so had no intention of paying his fare on arrival at Preston. It doesn't look very good at all.

Ignorance or stupidity, it doesn't really matter that much now.

 

[island]

Exactly how long is it since the alleged offence? They may be out of time.

 

[Chronicle]

Thank you for the prompt response guys. It's appreciated.

Can you scan a picture of the fixed penalty notice please?

I am interested how it has been worded.

Does it state "Administrative Penalty" or "Fixed Penalty Notice" ?

It it worded as a 'Fixed Penalty Notice' quite specifically with no mention of an 'Administrative' charge of that nature. Here is essentially what it is;

"The office acts as an agent on behalf of Northern Rail Ltd; we have evidence that indicates that on ate> you were reported by an authorised member of staff and it is alleged that you have committed an offence under section 5.3a of the Regulation of Railways act.

The circumstances alleged to constitute the offence are as follows: you traveled from Blackburn to Preston without paying the fare for your journey and with the intent of avoiding that fare. The fare for this journey is £5.20. Your matter is in the process of being prepared for disposal at the Magistrates court. This notice offers you the opportunity of discharging any liability to conviction for that offence by payment of a fixed penalty of £80 in addition to the outstanding fare.

No proceedings will be taken for this offence before the expiration of 28 days from the date of this notice. You will not be liable to conviction for the offence if you pay the fixed penalty during the period of 28 days, In addition to the 'Fixed Penalty' payment of the fare avoided of £5.20 brings the total amount payable is £85.20.

Whilst we hope that you will satisfactorily conclude this matter, failure to respond to this reasonable request within 28 days from the date of this letter will result in legal action being taken (Regulations of railway act and railway byaws apply). I must inform you that should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application for £150 as a contribution to our costs. Offences of this nature are recordeable and should you be convicted you will receive a criminal record.

Will get to the other posts now;

I would say that that is ignorance, not stupidity. Not knowing the Byelaws is not evidence of stupidity, and where it has always been accepted that tickets can be bought on-board it is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is acceptable.

In reality I don't think OP would have been able to pay just the fare, it seems a common tactic for RPIs to claim that passengers will be asked to pay the fare by post (whether from a genuine belief or wishing to avoid confrontation).

Yes I will admit it was ignorance on my part, and as I say I was waved through by the Guys at Blackburn and told to purchase the ticket on the train. It's usually very busy in the morning at peak times and near nigh impossible to get a ticket unless you're fairly early, which just isn't going to play nice on the days where you're rushing.

And yes, I was told I could pay the fine by post and that I will receive a letter within 7 days advising me of this in order to avoid any charge. That's the only thing which I'm slightly miffed at. Though again, full responsibility taken on my part for the mistake of not following it up.

I think given the fact you have committed an offence, you should be quite glad that Northern are only wanting you to pay £85.20.

This scheme has not been running that long, before it you would have been taken to court or forced to try and agree some kind of out of court settlement. I suggest that the £85.20 is paid without a fuss, I do think its quite reasonable considering Northern were at one stage prosecuting left right and centre.

I'm sure you are aware Northern really are clamping down on fare evasion and it is buy before you board if there an opportunity to do.

From what I read on these boards it does seem I've been given an Olive Branch (If you could call it that). I will more than likely place a cheque in the post tomorrow and send it special delivery. I'm usually very careful with my credit record and the thought of even attaining a criminal record isn't giving me pleasant thoughts! Not to mention implications down the road.

This may have been normal practice for many years, however I believe that Northern put up posters extensively quite a while ago to advise passengers of their responsibility to buy before boarding. There is a TVM at the entrance to Platform 4 as people have mentioned in other threads, and there is a ticket office on the island platform in the middle at Blackburn. There is no reason not to buy a ticket before boarding. In addition, the OP admitted that he left via the underpass at Preston, so had no intention of paying his fare on arrival at Preston. It doesn't look very good at all.

Ignorance or stupidity, it doesn't really matter that much now.

The Office on the Island platform was pretty busy, though I waited by the Machine. The train came and we were still waiting and so they waived us through. I'm assuming the other guys in the queue with me purchased their tickets at Preston near the front entrance however I always take the Underpass as that is the easiest route for me to take to where I need to go. I didn't think taking the underpass was automatically considered shady and I usually have a ticket which is why I don't mind either. This day I got unlucky I guess, and yes like you say, not much I can do about it.

Exactly how long is it since the alleged offence? They may be out of time.

Offence was ~20th October 12. Received the letter today and is dated a couple days ago.

 

[island]

Not much of a chance of getting away with it as out of time then, they have 6 months to bring a prosecution (technically: "lay information").

 

[Swirlz]

Pay it up, as an out of court settlement, rather than a fixed penalty notice.

I am investigating the wording, particularly "Fixed Penalty Notice".

As far as I am concerned it is not permitted to use this term because Northern Rail have no authority to issue FPN or PNDs.

It should be called an "Administrative Charge".

Perhaps getting into the realms of Section 2 Fraud Act 2006, as it is worded, in my opinion, to suggest that if they don't pay whatever they ask, they will be prosecuted. By using FPN you would reasonably assume that it is from an official "government" agency, (i.e. Police/Council/DWP etc), not a private company with no statute to issue such notices.
What then stops them asking for £100, £250, £500?
It appears to be an attempt into scaring people into parting with money - which is illegal.

 

[snail]

Yes it does sound like a dubious practice. Parking notices from private companies can pretty much be ignored on the assumption that it would never get to court because the companies know the court would regard their penalties as unfair.

Northern, however, have the railway byelaws and statues to fall back on if the 'penalty' is not paid. I think it very unlikely that they would ever try to enforce an unpaid 'penalty', and the letter quoted above says as much.

 

[Chronicle]

Not much of a chance of getting away with it as out of time then, they have 6 months to bring a prosecution (technically: "lay information").

Sorry I'm a little confused here. 6 Months from the date of alleged offense or the letter? Around 4 and a half months have passed, add that in to the 28 days from the letter which would be end of march leaving with only a couple weeks? I'm assuming this is what you are stating.

I'd rather not take the risk to be honest if that is what is being implied, though I'd appreciate your stance/clarification on this.

Pay it up, as an out of court settlement, rather than a fixed penalty notice.

I am investigating the wording, particularly "Fixed Penalty Notice".

As far as I am concerned it is not permitted to use this term because Northern Rail have no authority to issue FPN or PNDs.

It should be called an "Administrative Charge".

Perhaps getting into the realms of Section 2 Fraud Act 2006, as it is worded, in my opinion, to suggest that if they don't pay whatever they ask, they will be prosecuted. By using FPN you would reasonably assume that it is from an official "government" agency, (i.e. Police/Council/DWP etc), not a private company with no statute to issue such notices.
What then stops them asking for £100, £250, £500?
It appears to be an attempt into scaring people into parting with money - which is illegal.

Thanks, I had the notion that the £80 figure was out of nowhere. Not quite sue what it's based on. If it is 'Administrative' for the cost of someone actually at the desk and the letter then fair enough, however beyond that I will admit it's dubious.

Can you advise how I should pay with the intention of it being an 'Out of Court settlement'? Should I write a letter with this and attach a cheque stating acceptance (cashing) of payment denotes acceptance of the out of court settlement? There's also how I may be able to prove they 'accept', they can always say they never received the attached letter.

I'm not quite sure how all this works, as this is a first time. To be honest I'm just tempted to chuck a cheque in the post and be done with it. I'm fine financially enough to part with it, though I suppose there is the principle and irregularity of the way it is worded.

Here is also what is mentioned as clarification to the Asterisk: Railways and Tramways, Regulations of Railways Act 1889: Shall be Liable on a summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 £1000) on the standard scale, or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

Northern, however, have the railway byelaws and statues to fall back on if the 'penalty' is not paid. I think it very unlikely that they would ever try to enforce an unpaid 'penalty', and the letter quoted above says as much.

Yes, it's why I'd rather not even have the possibility of court mentioned should it come to that.

So, £85.20 pay up as an 'Out of Court Settlement?', or should I simply note the reference number of the Fixed Notice letter (Which is unique to my case it seems) with the cheque and hope all is done with.

I'm assuming once I send this I won't be liable for court? Is there anything stopping them taking me through the ringer after payment? Lol.

 

[island]

I am saying that they have 6 months from the date of the alleged offence to commence the prosecution, so you won't be able to escape due to the length of time elapsed.

Payment of the £85.20 will be the end of the matter.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would pay and let that be the end of the matter, no court, nothing just pay it up its over with and don't make the mistake again.

HOWEVER, i am concerned that people protecting the platforms at Blackburn waved many of you through saying pay on the train, if conductor did not get to you then this is a very odd situation.

Northern really really need to start having a bit of consistency in their approach to ticketless travel. The fact that they make profits of £30 Million doesnt help with peoples opinion.

 

[mrmatt]

HOWEVER, i am concerned that people protecting the platforms at Blackburn waved many of you through saying pay on the train, if conductor did not get to you then this is a very odd situation.

My understanding of the bylaws is that if staff give permission to board without a ticket (to be purchased at a later date) then there is no offence? Then again I guess this would be hard to prove...

 

[island]

That is correct on both counts.

 

[34D]

My advice would be:

On day 27, send a letter (special delivery) to northern rail (enclosing the original letter and its envelope) staing that Joseph Adam Bloggs doesn't live there. If this letter could be truthfully signed by a member of the household with a different surname then all the better.

They will then recheck their paperwork from the day, and write to you with your correct name. Again on day 27, respond in writing to advise that you were told by the officer at Blackburn to pay on the train, but that no guard ever came round, hence the staff at Preston were the first ticket sellers you came across. Enclose with this letter a cheque for £5.75 or whatever the value of the fare due is.

You will now be out of time for a criminal prosecution, and will be most unlikely to face a civil claim.

 

[455driver]

My understanding of the bylaws is that if staff give permission to board without a ticket (to be purchased at a later date) then there is no offence? Then again I guess this would be hard to prove...

So all any fare evader has to say is "da bloke at du stayshun sed I cud bey at du uver end" and so nobody could ever be prosecuted!

Can you see a flaw in there anywhere?

 

[maniacmartin]

The flaw being that every member of rail staff I've encountered has refused to put what they say in writing.

 

[jb]

...You will now be out of time for a criminal prosecution, and will be most unlikely to face a civil claim.

IANAL but I nonetheless wouldn't hesitate in opining that this is terrible advice.

 

[W230]

My advice would be:

On day 27, send a letter (special delivery) to northern rail (enclosing the original letter and its envelope) staing that Joseph Adam Bloggs doesn't live there. If this letter could be truthfully signed by a member of the household with a different surname then all the better.

They will then recheck their paperwork from the day, and write to you with your correct name. Again on day 27, respond in writing to advise that you were told by the officer at Blackburn to pay on the train, but that no guard ever came round, hence the staff at Preston were the first ticket sellers you came across. Enclose with this letter a cheque for £5.75 or whatever the value of the fare due is.

You will now be out of time for a criminal prosecution, and will be most unlikely to face a civil claim.

Not wise advice. The law simply requires that enough information be lay before the court within 6 months. You do not have to receive your summons within 6 months.

In this post the case has already been started within 6 months.

If it were me, i'd pay the £80 and be done with it. It could get alot messier otherwise...

 

[michael769]

I don't see a any indication in this thread to believe that information has been laid. Having said that I don't disagree with the rest of your advice.

Delaying responses in the hope of a timeout risks an attentive prosecutor feeling forced to proceed with a prosecution which might have been avoided with a little cooperation from the accused.

 

[34D]

I don't see a any indication in this thread to believe that information has been laid. Having said that I don't disagree with the rest of your advice.

Delaying responses in the hope of a timeout risks an attentive prosecutor feeling forced to proceed with a prosecution which might have been avoided with a little cooperation from the accused.

This is the flip side. I agree this could happen. Though if an information is laid on 5 months 29 days, the prosecutor can always discontinue prosecution.

I say this from personal experience, of being the 'victim' (or accused if you prefer) of a criminal prosecution by a party other than the Police/CPS. Settlement was achieved after informations had been laid (and even after a first hearing had taken place).

 

[michael769]

I don't disagree with that, but it can be harder to agree a favourable settlement - the more work put into a prosecution the more certain of success one can get, and such certainty tends to make one less willing to accept low offers. On the other hand it is not impossible to get a timeout if the posecutor does not have their eye on the lock.

One must also consider the time, effort and stress involved in having court hanging over your head.

But I think it is always wise to be clear to folks who may not have experience of the system, that an approach like you suggest is not a sure thing (quite the opposite in fact) and has potential downsides. Only when equipped with both sides of the coin can an inormed decision be made.

 

[34D]

But I think it is always wise to be clear to folks who may not have experience of the system, that an approach like you suggest is not a sure thing (quite the opposite in fact) and has potential downsides. Only when equipped with both sides of the coin can an inormed decision be made.

I do absolutely agree with this bit

 

[DaveNewcastle]

...You will now be out of time for a criminal prosecution, and will be most unlikely to face a civil claim.

IANAL but I nonetheless wouldn't hesitate in opining that this is terrible advice.

I agree.
A perilous strategy and an unsupportable estimate of probablility - it could lead the OP into deeper difficulty.
Bad advice from this forum.

 

[W230]

I don't see a any indication in this thread to believe that information has been laid.

I agree, I see none either. But I was suggesting that the OP wouldn't necessarily know whether information had been laid, making it a very risky strategy in my opinion.

A bit like a "do nothing and see what happens strategy".

 

[Chronicle]

Thanks the responses once again. Took it all on board and I actually bit the bullet and decided to take the 'safe' option and pony up the money they requested. This was a couple weeks ago now, sent a cheque with a letter signed/recorded and confirmed delivered, however they have not cashed the cheque as of yet going by Internet Banking.

Does anyone have a phone number for the Bradford debt recovery unit? I searched to no avail, and need to confirm with someone human that they do indeed have the money and won't be pursuing any further. I don't exactly wish for another random letter down the line a few months later with a court date that I likely will have no way of winning if the past is anything to go by.

Cheers.

 

[bb21]

If you don't manage to get a number, don't worry too much. You have your proof that it was received so you have fulfilled your side of the bargain.

It will probably take a while before the cheque is cashed.

 

[silencio]

Not sure if it's Bradford but the number on my letter from 'Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit' is 0844 544 4272.