Sold invalid ticket by machine at London Victoria

[dcsprior]

Hi,

On Tuesday, I had to go from London Victoria to Milton Keynes. National Rail Enquiries showed that the route to take was by Underground to Euston, then by train - but I'd left it too late to buy online and collect from station so I bought a ticket from the machine in Victoria station (one of the ones near to the Southeatern platforms).

When I went downstairs, my ticket didn't open the Underground ticket barriers, but a member of staff checked it and let me through. When I got to Euston, my ticket didn't work the barriers and the member of staff told me that my ticket wasn't valid on the underground.

Although I know the difference between a London Terminals ticket and a London Zone Ux one, I hadn't actually checked my ticket: at no point did the machine prompt me for a starting point, so I assumed that this ticket was valid from Victoria, as that was where I was buying it.

So:

• Was the machine wrong to sell me a ticket that wasn't valid from the station where I bought it?
• If the ticket inspector at Euston Underground station was so minded, could he have fined/prosecuted/etc me for this? (In the end, he let me beep in and then beep straight out on my oyster, so I'd get charged a Zone 1 fare on that)

Many thanks,

David

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would be more comfortable if the opening post of this thread had identified the actual ticket that was sold (ticket type, origin, destination, route and perhaps even the price) rather than just "my ticket" and "invalid ticket".

That might make it possible for people on here to confirm whether it was the machine that was correct or the Inspector that was correct, before giving a confident answer to the 2 questions.

 

[oversteer]

If your ticket wasn't valid then TFL could have charged you an £80 fare so letting you pay for the journey was probably a good result for you.

 

[dcsprior]

I would be more comfortable if the opening post of this thread had identified the actual ticket that was sold (ticket type, origin, destination, route and perhaps even the price) rather than just "my ticket" and "invalid ticket".

That might make it possible for people on here to confirm whether it was the machine that was correct or the Inspector that was correct, before giving a confident answer to the 2 questions.

Sorry, it was an Off-Peak Return from London Terminals to Milton Keynes.

Can't remember the price (have sent it off as an expense claim, which is another reason I'd wanted one ticket that took me all the way from Victoria, rather than having the underground part on my oyster) - think the route was Virgin Trains

 

[FGWman]

This is a common problem for ticket machines in London. As most tickets are issued from London Terminals there are many tickets available which will not be valid from the point of sale

For example from Paddington the machines will sell you a ticket to Clapham Junction. But there is no train service available to make the journey. You will need to buy an Underground ticket to Waterloo and then use the ticket from there.

What the TOC should do is go through and remove all the destinations from that machine for journeys that are not possible. Or course this would probably take quite a bit of time and money.

The situation does not arise that often as most people know which terminal station they need to get to and then buy a ticket there. I suspect however the member of staff at Euston has seen these before and can see how the mistake happened so let you through.

Makes a bit of a mockery of the supposed aim of having ticket machines available. They are supposed to sell you tickets for immediate travel. But in this case they sell you a ticket for a journey you cannot actually make.

 

[yorkie]

...National Rail Enquiries showed that the route to take was by Underground to Euston, then by train - but I'd left it too late to buy online ...

Was the price shown on NRE more expensive than the price shown by the ticket vending machine (TVM) by any chance?

London Terminals - Milton Keynes Off Peak Return £27.60
Zone U1 London - Milton Keynes Off Peak Return £25.70

 

[LexyBoy]

(In the end, he let me beep in and then beep straight out on my oyster, so I'd get charged a Zone 1 fare on that)

You will have been charged the maximum fare I think (see here), which would be up to £8.60.

The situation does not arise that often as most people know which terminal station they need to get to and then buy a ticket there. I suspect however the member of staff at Euston has seen these before and can see how the mistake happened so let you through.

I don't know, it probably happens quite a lot when people arrive into London and need a ticket to continue their journey. I've done it in the past.

 

[dcsprior]

Was the price shown on NRE more expensive than the price shown by the ticket vending machine (TVM) by any chance?

London Terminals - Milton Keynes Off Peak Return £27.60
Zone U1 London - Milton Keynes Off Peak Return £25.70

Hi, I've just checked my online banking and the entry which I think was me buying this ticket ("CARD PAYMENT TO LONDON & SOUTH EAS") was £14.50

You will have been charged the maximum fare I think (see here), which would be up to £8.60.

That's rather annoying, he originally told me to go to the ticket window to buy a ticket, and when I said "I have an oyster card, won't it be cheaper to pay by that?" he advised me to touch in then out to pay a Zone 1 fare... though looking at the prices above, its still less than if the machine had sold me the correct ticket in the first place?

 

[oversteer]

Hi, I've just checked my online banking and the entry which I think was me buying this ticket ("CARD PAYMENT TO LONDON & SOUTH EAS") was £14.50

That's the price of a London Terminals-Milton Keynes off peak return, two tickets with that price - using either London Midland or Virgin Trains. (Same price for either route) So this would have been valid from Euston and you would have been expected to make your own way to Euston.

Of course, this is not obvious to most people.

That's rather annoying, he originally told me to go to the ticket window to buy a ticket, and when I said "I have an oyster card, won't it be cheaper to pay by that?" he advised me to touch in then out to pay a Zone 1 fare... though looking at the prices above, its still less than if the machine had sold me the correct ticket in the first place?

TFL's Oyster Customer Services may be able to assist you if you have been overcharged for your Zone 1 journey.

 

[dcsprior]

That's the price of a London Terminals-Milton Keynes off peak return on either London Midland or Virgin Trains. So this would have been valid from Euston and you would have been expected to make your own way to Euston.

Of course, this is not obvious to most people.

TFL's Oyster Customer Services may be able to assist you if you have been overcharged for your Zone 1 journey.

I may just put this down to experience, especially as it may be less straightforward trying to get a refund from TFL as a result of confusion with a non-TFL ticket machine.

It just annoys me that the ticket machine at Victoria didn't sell me a ticket from Victoria

 

[JamesRowden]

What the TOC should do is go through and remove all the destinations from that machine for journeys that are not possible. Or course this would probably take quite a bit of time and money.

Victoria is managed by Network Rail, not a TOC.

 

[dcsprior]

What the TOC should do is go through and remove all the destinations from that machine for journeys that are not possible. Or course this would probably take quite a bit of time and money.

Victoria is managed by Network Rail, not a TOC.

Though the machine is a SouthEastern one (judging by who the card txn is to).

I don't think that removing destinations not served directly is the solution - just make sure that the tickets sold to them are valid from the station they're being purchased at (i.e. from Zone U1, rather than from London Terminals)

Out of interest, does this apply in other cities where there's terminal stations not connected by rail? For example if I bought a ticket to London at Glasgow Queen Street, would it include travel to Glasgow Central (e.g. on the shuttle bus, or by rail via Partick)?

 

[sheff1]

Out of interest, does this apply in other cities where there's terminal stations not connected by rail? For example if I bought a ticket to London at Glasgow Queen Street, would it include travel to Glasgow Central (e.g. on the shuttle bus, or by rail via Partick)?

The shuttle bus is free and rail travel is valid via Partick (although some on here dispute that). Of course, the quickest way is to walk but that is a different discussion all together

 

[district]

If your ticket wasn't valid then TFL could have charged you an £80 fare so letting you pay for the journey was probably a good result for you.

Surely though that because he was let through at Victoria manually when his ticket failed to operate the barriers then an authorised person was giving him authority to travel under s3 of the TfL Railway Byelaws?

3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) the Operator or an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

[island]

Borderline.

 

[A1]

Yeah, the TVMs are very poor sometimes with the way they issue tickets. I have the same issue at times leaving from other London Terminals. (And of course, there's no easy way to see which origin/travel method is going to be issued to you either before you pay.

Not having a valid ticket can create an opportunity to be fined.

Now, one for the experts. Isn't there some rule that tickets issued by the machine are correct for travel on a planner route, even if the machine stuffed up? How would this apply in similar situations?

 

[island]

I am not aware of any such rule. From a booking office, you might have a stronger case.

 

[Welshman]

Out of interest, does this apply in other cities where there's terminal stations not connected by rail? For example if I bought a ticket to London at Glasgow Queen Street, would it include travel to Glasgow Central (e.g. on the shuttle bus, or by rail via Partick)?

AFAIK it's a similar situation in Manchester.

Tickets from North Wales to Manchester are to "Manchester Stations"
The direct trains go to Oxford Rd and Piccadilly. If I want to go to Victoria, say for onward connections to the Calder Valley, I am allowed to change at Newton-le-Willows for a Victoria service from Liverpool, or go to Oxford Rd and have a little jaunt via Salford Crescent. But I cannot use the Metrolink tram from Piccadilly to Victoria without paying extra.

So I usually walk it.

 

[soil]

I think the TOC would be an absolute laughing stock if a passenger were pursued for £80 or whatever having been sold one of these tickets.

Perhaps why it has yet to happen.

 

[Mojo]

I think the TOC would be an absolute laughing stock if a passenger were pursued for £80 or whatever having been sold one of these tickets.

Perhaps why it has yet to happen.

Plenty of £80 Penalty Fares have been issued by Underground Inspectors for customers holding NR tickets which are not valid on LU services. As any Penalty Fare in the case of the OP would be issued by an Underground Inspector (if present) I would imagine they are not too fussed about making a Toc look stupid or giving them bad PR.

On the Underground, only Revenue Control Inspectors (and certain Managers in the department) can issue Penalty Fares, so in this instance the CSA on the gateline only asked the customer to pay the fare due for the journey they had made.

 

[Starmill]

AFAIK it's a similar situation in Manchester.

Tickets from North Wales to Manchester are to "Manchester Stations"
The direct trains go to Oxford Rd and Piccadilly. If I want to go to Victoria, say for onward connections to the Calder Valley, I am allowed to change at Newton-le-Willows for a Victoria service from Liverpool, or go to Oxford Rd and have a little jaunt via Salford Crescent. But I cannot use the Metrolink tram from Piccadilly to Victoria without paying extra.

So I usually walk it.

This is interesting... if you turned up at Manchester Victoria and bought a ticket to Manchester Airport - the parallel would be much the same - you'd need to get to Piccadilly to get an Airport train. In the example given, the ticket to Manchester stns is clearly valid for a change at Newton-le-willows or via Salford Crescent,, but would a ticket from Manchester Stns be valid for travel from Victoria to Salford Crescent and thence to Piccadilly?

It's also worth noting that cross-Manchester transfers are free by Metrolink only if your journey is entirely within the TfGM area (by means of route: metrolink). That must make journeys like London to Rochdale a right pain.

 

[causton]

Plenty of £80 Penalty Fares have been issued by Underground Inspectors for customers holding NR tickets which are not valid on LU services. As any Penalty Fare in the case of the OP would be issued by an Underground Inspector (if present) I would imagine they are not too fussed about making a Toc look stupid or giving them bad PR.

On the Underground, only Revenue Control Inspectors (and certain Managers in the department) can issue Penalty Fares, so in this instance the CSA on the gateline only asked the customer to pay the fare due for the journey they had made.

But it sounds like an LU member of staff let the passenger into Victoria *LU* station...!

 

[bb21]

This is interesting... if you turned up at Manchester Victoria and bought a ticket to Manchester Airport - the parallel would be much the same - you'd need to get to Piccadilly to get an Airport train. In the example given, the ticket to Manchester stns is clearly valid for a change at Newton-le-willows or via Salford Crescent,, but would a ticket from Manchester Stns be valid for travel from Victoria to Salford Crescent and thence to Piccadilly?

Unless prohibited by an operator restriction, travel is always permitted via Salford Crescent between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria on mapped routes to/from Manchester Stns. So a Manchester Stns - Manchester Airport ticket is valid for travel Victoria - Salford Crescent - Piccadilly - Airport.

 

[34D]

This is interesting... if you turned up at Manchester Victoria and bought a ticket to Manchester Airport - the parallel would be much the same - you'd need to get to Piccadilly to get an Airport train. In the example given, the ticket to Manchester stns is clearly valid for a change at Newton-le-willows or via Salford Crescent,, but would a ticket from Manchester Stns be valid for travel from Victoria to Salford Crescent and thence to Piccadilly?

It's also worth noting that cross-Manchester transfers are free by Metrolink only if your journey is entirely within the TfGM area (by means of route: metrolink). That must make journeys like London to Rochdale a right pain.

I suppose Manchester is a bit similar to London, in that there are non Manchester terminals stations in between some of the Manchester Stations ticketing group members. For example, Shudehill, Market Street, Farringdon, and most U1 underground stations are places at which through tickets have to specifically allow an interchange by another mode in order to be valid.

In the case of the London Victoria to Milton Keynes ticket, I would be interested to know what contract others believe the OP had entered into. Is it:

-London Victoria to MKC route virgin, including a maltese cross cross-London transfer?
-London Victoria to MKC route not underground (ie via Clapham junction) and Virgin trains?
-London Euston to MKC with an implication to walk (or pay for other travel) between Victoria and Euston?

I think it is clear that the OP expected to be sold the first one.

 

[dcsprior]

In the case of the London Victoria to Milton Keynes ticket, I would be interested to know what contract others believe the OP had entered into. Is it:

-London Victoria to MKC route virgin, including a maltese cross cross-London transfer?
-London Victoria to MKC route not underground (ie via Clapham junction) and Virgin trains?
-London Euston to MKC with an implication to walk (or pay for other travel) between Victoria and Euston?

I think it is clear that the OP expected to be sold the first one.

I expected to be sold the same ticket that the National Rail Enquiries website showed - I've looked this up just now, and going by the price, I think it is this.

 

[Deerfold]

It does seem odd that most TVMs at London terminals do not offer the option of selling a U1 ticket to the destination (to be friendly it could even ask "Do you need this ticket to include Underground travel to the appropriate London Terminal").

 

[jon0844]

TVM software is mostly crap, but if you buy a ticket at another terminal station and can't actually begin your journey from that station - how hard would it be to pop up a notice to say that this ticket can't be used from that station and a underground add-on needs be added to allow immediate travel. Then ask if this is required - bosh, done.

If you select 'ignore' then perhaps you intend to use your Oyster PAYG, walk, take a cab or whatever.