Overcrowding on Manchester - Scotland TPE services

[class26]

This "major Intercity service" used to be run by 158s, to put things in perspective

I think this is something we are going to see more of in the future. I mean previous intercity routes gradually going over to suburban stock. Liverpool - B`ham is now albeit with a greater frequency than before. London Midland right up to Crewe from Euston so such stations as Lichfield have little choice. Transpennine ex after electrification will be probably in the hands of 350`s and so on. After HS2 will we see FCC extended from Peterborough up to Grantham, Kings Lynn, a similar distance from London was 47 plus mk 2 before electrification. Where does it stop ?

 

[tbtc]

I think this is something we are going to see more of in the future. I mean previous intercity routes gradually going over to suburban stock. Liverpool - B'ham is now albeit with a greater frequency than before. London Midland right up to Crewe from Euston so such stations as Lichfield have little choice. Transpennine ex after electrification will be probably in the hands of 350's and so on. After HS2 will we see FCC extended from Peterborough up to Grantham, Kings Lynn, a similar distance from London was 47 plus mk 2 before electrification. Where does it stop ?

I thought that this was worth a separate discussion - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1381259#post1381259 - hope you don't mind?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am a regular on the Edinburgh-Manchester service and generally travel first class because of the issues that have been raised. The trains are certainly inadequate for a journey of that length.

Would it have been better if 2 x Class 185 units (= 6 cars) had been detailed to run the services to both Glasgow and to Edinburgh when these two routes were handed over to First TPE? It was obvious that the use of these units would have been required from the TPE fleet stocks to effect such a service provision, so could Class 156 or 158 have been translated to TPE from other TOC to run the shorter-service TPE routes ?

How much thought was actually involved by those who decided TPE were the TOC to hand these Scottish services to ?

 

[Starmill]

Would it have been better if 2 x Class 185 units (= 6 cars) had been detailed to run the services to both Glasgow and to Edinburgh when these two routes were handed over to First TPE? It was obvious that the use of these units would have been required from the TPE fleet stocks to effect such a service provision, so could Class 156 or 158 have been translated to TPE from other TOC to run the shorter-service TPE routes ?

How much thought was actually involved by those who decided TPE were the TOC to hand these Scottish services to ?

Hmmm... more double 185s? Free journeys to Scotland anyone? Just sit in the front unit!

 

[tbtc]

Would it have been better if 2 x Class 185 units (= 6 cars) had been detailed to run the services to both Glasgow and to Edinburgh when these two routes were handed over to First TPE? It was obvious that the use of these units would have been required from the TPE fleet stocks to effect such a service provision, so could Class 156 or 158 have been translated to TPE from other TOC to run the shorter-service TPE routes ?

How much thought was actually involved by those who decided TPE were the TOC to hand these Scottish services to ?

To answer your question, I think the thinking went like this:

1. We want to run more/ better trains from Chester to London
2. Where can we steal the stock from to free up some Voyagers?
3. Eeny-meeny-miney-mo...
4. Ah, the TPE franchise
5. So TPE had to stretch their resources further to take on this additional burden

(would have been interesting to see how TPE coped without this distraction - would the 185 fleet have been better to cope with the "original" TPE map?)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hmmm... more double 185s? Free journeys to Scotland anyone? Just sit in the front unit!

There are some TPE services currently running part of their routes with 2 x Class 185 units. There is one that springs to mind that leaves Manchester Airport just before 0930 that has 1 unit for Windermere and 1 unit for Blackpool that split at Preston. Platform 14 at Manchester Piccadilly station sees heavy passenger loadings on both of these two units. I am sure that there are train staff on both of these two units.

 

[northwichcat]

There are some TPE services currently running part of their routes with 2 x Class 185 units. There is one that springs to mind that leaves Manchester Airport just before 0930 that has 1 unit for Windermere and 1 unit for Blackpool that split at Preston. Platform 14 at Manchester Piccadilly station sees heavy passenger loadings on both of these two units. I am sure that there are train staff on both of these two units.

There's three doubled up 185s departing the Airport for Scotland between 16:00 and 18:00. The first one is doubled up throughout, the other two have Barrow portions.

 

[snail]

There's three doubled up 185s departing the Airport for Scotland between 16:00 and 18:00. The first one is doubled up throughout, the other two have Barrow portions.

Does the Windermere service not run now?

 

[ainsworth74]

(would have been interesting to see how TPE coped without this distraction - would the 185 fleet have been better to cope with the "original" TPE map?)

My personal feeling on that is that, whilst there would still be overcrowding in the peak it would be no-where near as bad as it is currently as there would be more doubled up services running in the Manchester - Leeds - York core. Out of curiosity how many 185s run doubled up on TPE North now and do we know how many did before the Scotland services were added?

Does the Windermere service not run now?

It's a shuttle now with just a few through services a day. Once upon a time there was a regular service through service to Manchester Airport.

 

[Lampshade]

Does the Windermere service not run now?

The 1616 runs to Edinburgh and Windermere, there's one or two more through Windermere services but the vast majority run from Preston or Oxenholme.

 

[43074]

To answer your question, I think the thinking went like this:

1. We want to run more/ better trains from Chester to London
2. Where can we steal the stock from to free up some Voyagers?
3. Eeny-meeny-miney-mo...
4. Ah, the TPE franchise
5. So TPE had to stretch their resources further to take on this additional burden

(would have been interesting to see how TPE coped without this distraction - would the 185 fleet have been better to cope with the "original" TPE map?)

Don't forget TPE did receive 9 (2-car) Turbostars* to release 185s from Hull and a few Cleethorpes services so it wasn't entirely stretching the Desiros. Also most of the Windermere trains were diverted to Scotland too.

This was part of a cascade plan that happened when Central Trains were remapped and South West Trains decided that they didn't want their Turbostars any more. It was essentially a like for like replacement because SWT had some ex-TPE 158s converted to 159/1s.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Don't forget TPE did receive 9 (2-car) Turbostars* to release 185s from Hull and a few Cleethorpes services so it wasn't entirely stretching the Desiros. Also most of the Windermere trains were diverted to Scotland too.

This was part of a cascade plan that happened when Central Trains were remapped and South West Trains decided that they didn't want their Turbostars any more. It was essentially a like for like replacement because SWT had some ex-TPE 158s converted to 159/1s.

Weren't the 9 170s to compensate for the fact that FTPE wanted 60 185s and got 51?

 

[gnolife]

The 1616 runs to Edinburgh and Windermere, there's one or two more through Windermere services but the vast majority run from Preston or Oxenholme.

Through Manchester Airport - Windermere services are
Monday - Friday
09:29 MIA - WDM 11:39. Detaches a Blackpool North portion at Preston.
16:00 MIA - WDM 18:08. Detaches a Edinburgh Waverley portion at Preston

10:49 WDM - MIA 12:47
12:51 WDM - MIA 14:47
17:06 WDM - MIA 19:17
18:15 WDM - MIA 20:24

Saturday
08:25 MIA - WDM 10:26
16:00 MIA - WDM 18:00. Detatches an Edinburgh Waverley portion at Preston

10:49 WDM - MIA 12:47
12:51 WDM - MIA 14:47
17:06 WDM - MIA 19:17

No direct services on Sundays

 

[tbtc]

Don't forget TPE did receive 9 (2-car) Turbostars* to release 185s from Hull and a few Cleethorpes services so it wasn't entirely stretching the Desiros

They had the 170s prior to knowing about the Scottish services though - the 170s were used on doubled up services back then, compared to using single 170s nowadays (as happens on the Sheffield route)

 

[WatcherZero]

A question now arises in my mind, did perchance the use of 185's for Scotland services save the reputation of the class? If they were simply operating transpennine services would they be looked on so favourbly considering the issues Siemens had with them being over weight and over powered as their first diesel class in the UK they readily admit they lacked experience and overengineered them. If they were just operating more suitable routes in the NW and NE that a 158 operated would we be looking on them more for their faults like we do the Voyagers and the Meridians? I know we would never have viewed them as badly as the Adelante's whatever the circumstances as mechanically they were sound but is perhaps our love for this class as that for the plucky underdog?

 

[Manchester77]

Through Manchester Airport - Windermere services are
Monday - Friday
09:29 MIA - WDM 11:39. Detaches a Blackpool North portion at Preston.
16:00 MIA - WDM 18:08. Detaches a Edinburgh Waverley portion at Preston

10:49 WDM - MIA 12:47
12:51 WDM - MIA 14:47
17:06 WDM - MIA 19:17
18:15 WDM - MIA 20:24

Saturday
08:25 MIA - WDM 10:26
16:00 MIA - WDM 18:00. Detatches an Edinburgh Waverley portion at Preston

10:49 WDM - MIA 12:47
12:51 WDM - MIA 14:47
17:06 WDM - MIA 19:17

No direct services on Sundays

Is that changed during the summer because the XX:46 was usually a double with half of the train to Blackpool and the other was to Windermere?

And post electrification where will the 185s go? I was thinking some of the rural lines in Scotland?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And post electrification where will the 185s go? I was thinking some of the rural lines in Scotland?

Current feeling is that their first usage will to be strengthen those TPE services not affected by post-electrification.

 

[ainsworth74]

And post electrification where will the 185s go? I was thinking some of the rural lines in Scotland?

Until TPE electrification is complete the vast majority of the fleet will, I believe, be remaining approximately where it is currently. In the longer term (and we're probably talking out towards mid CP6) the fleet will, I hope, be kept together as one whole rather than being split into loads of mini-fleets. When considering future dispositions it's also worth bearing in mind that currently the 185s are serviced by two purpose built Siemens depots (at York and Manchester) so if you remove them from that you do lose the benefit that this brings in terms of reliability. So if at all possible it would be good to see them deployed on services that allowed them to remain with the present depot facilities.

Whilst Scotland might be a reasonable destination (Far North + West Highland), though I'd like a different design of seat fitted, the main problem with that, I suspect, is going to be the weight. I could be very wrong but I'd imagine that the lines aren't maintained to be able to cope with regular heavy trains. The odd freight might be okay but with every passenger service being heavy I'm not so sure that's practical. If weight isn't an issue then I think that it might be a reasonable destination for them in the long term.

The future of the 185s is certainly an interesting one. I know one member would like to see them scrapped outright, but I feel (still) that's a somewhat unlikely outcome But you do have to wonder where they can see out the rest of their days.

 

[tbtc]

post electrification where will the 185s go?

As Paul Sidorczuk and ainsworth74 have already said, nobody really knows. My own thoughts on the matter (not that anyone cares!) are...

If the TPE franchise is to lose DMUs then the two coach 170s would be the first to leave (partly because they are shorter, partly because they are "non standard" at TPE, partly because they could fit into the FSR/ GA/ SN*/ LM/ XC fleet fairly easily)

There will still be unelectrified lines currently served by 185s at the end of CP5 - almost the entire Cleethorpes route plus Barrow, Windermere, Middlesbrough, Scarborough... even if Hull is wired soon, so they'll presumably still be needed in northern England.

If there are some spared (after doubling up existing services to cope with increased demand over the rest of the decade) then I think it'd be easiest to move the 185s onto hilly routes in the same area - Manchester to Buxton, Calder Valley, Blackpool to Leeds/ York/ Scarborough.

Beyond that, look at medium/long distance 90/100mph routes where a three coach train would be an advantage on what currently runs - like the two coach NR 156s on Newcastle - Carlisle or two coach NR 158s on Leeds - Nottingham or the two coach ATW 175s on Manchester services.

However I'm not convinced by splitting the fleet up, given that it's not a huge fleet in the first place.

(* - with different couplers)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well seen as tbtc has given his view i am going to give mine!!!

They could easily stay within current regions without being moved from their depots. Particularly, Scarbrough - Blackpool, Leeds - Carlisle, Leeds - Nottingham, Sheffield - Bridlington/Scarbrough, Manchester Airport/Liverpool Lime street - Cleethorpes and the prospective Micklefield - Chester service. That would keep the entire fleet within touching distance of York and Manchester.

 

[D6975]

The proposed schedule for the Man Airport - Scotland services via Wigan has 8 diagrams - just been looking at the sample timetable. Not much scope for doubling up when you've only got 10 units to play with..

A couple of services seem to terminate at Lockerbie - a typo perhaps, they don't return from Lockerbie.

 

[HSTEd]

We just have to hope that TPE gets six 23m car units for its EMU order...

I am not holding my breath.

 

[WatcherZero]

I would have thought 5x23 would be more likely, should be able to handle the majority of services and if you doubled them up it would be near original Pendolino length so every station should be able to handle it (except Manchester Airport).

 

[northwichcat]

They had the 170s prior to knowing about the Scottish services though - the 170s were used on doubled up services back then, compared to using single 170s nowadays (as happens on the Sheffield route)

Also after introducing 185s on Hull services, they went back to 158s. The last of the 158s only went once the 170s had taken their place on the Hull diagrams.

The 4 car Hull diagrams didn't all stay as 4 car all day, they were quite often 2 x 170s stabled at Piccadilly in the off-peak period when there was 4 car workings on peak time Hull services was common.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's three doubled up 185s departing the Airport for Scotland between 16:00 and 18:00. The first one is doubled up throughout, the other two have Barrow portions.

Through Manchester Airport - Windermere services are
Monday - Friday

16:00 MIA - WDM 18:08. Detaches a Edinburgh Waverley portion at Preston

Aren't we both slightly inaccurate here?

Is the 16:00 Edinburgh/Windermere service not Monday-Thursday only with a 6 car Edinburgh only service on Friday?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A question now arises in my mind, did perchance the use of 185's for Scotland services save the reputation of the class? If they were simply operating transpennine services would they be looked on so favourbly considering the issues Siemens had with them being over weight and over powered as their first diesel class in the UK they readily admit they lacked experience and overengineered them. If they were just operating more suitable routes in the NW and NE that a 158 operated would we be looking on them more for their faults like we do the Voyagers and the Meridians? I know we would never have viewed them as badly as the Adelante's whatever the circumstances as mechanically they were sound but is perhaps our love for this class as that for the plucky underdog?

TPE inadvertently issued a press release making the 185s sound bad. In trying to claim how environmentally aware they are being the story about the eco-mode introduction got in to the national press. With it a claim that the diesel saving using eco-mode is enough to run their small 170 fleet without any top ups.

Did First Group clearly communicate what was required in the first place? Siemens are based in Munich close to the Bavarian Alps. Did Siemens realise the difference between the Pennines and the Bavarian Alps? Or realise that while there is climbing the trains use tunnels and don't go 'over the top.'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As Paul Sidorczuk and ainsworth74 have already said, nobody really knows. My own thoughts on the matter (not that anyone cares!) are...

There will still be unelectrified lines currently served by 185s at the end of CP5 - almost the entire Cleethorpes route plus Barrow, Windermere, Middlesbrough, Scarborough... even if Hull is wired soon, so they'll presumably still be needed in northern England.

One thing to consider relating to that is Ardwick has purpose built Siemens maintenance facilities. If the new EMUs introduced on TPE come from Bombardier, Alstom or are refurbished BR trains then it may be best to build a new depot for them and keep the 185s at Ardwick. Although, I suppose another option would be if LM expand to Manchester and Preston, as in some proposals, then they might like Ardwick as an additional depot catering mainly for 350s.