Trains Stopping away from Platform Entrances

[DynamicSpirit]

No different from an airport

Well other than a small matter that people at airports tend to be going on major journeys where they'll have checked in about an hour before the flight and, in many cases, deposited most of their luggage - so being required to walk an additional minute or two isn't going to be significant. Plus most airports are able to transport disabled passengers to the terminals.

 

[Railsigns]

I used to sign temple meads but many moons ago. I think if the signal is illuminated then the driver can pass it up to the next stop mark and this may be done to allow a train in behind. Correct me if I am wrong.

Okay, you are wrong. The St. Andrew's crosses are lit all the time.

 

[TDK]

Okay, you are wrong. The St. Andrew's crosses are lit all the time.

So if thats the case how would a driver know they have permission to pass this signal if required to do so on entering the platform?

 

[Tomnick]

A Driver can pass the sign in question if he's been signalled to the 'far' end of the platform at the last signal before the station (i.e. received an even number in the route indicator coming from the Filton end, still with a single yellow unless the signal's off at the far end). Otherwise (if he's been signalled to the 'near' end and subsequently needs to pass the sign, or has reversed and is starting from in rear of it) he'll need to phone for permission. Only the Western Region would come up with such a bizarre way of working .

 

[Railsigns]

A Driver can pass the sign in question if he's been signalled to the 'far' end of the platform at the last signal before the station (i.e. received an even number in the route indicator coming from the Filton end, still with a single yellow unless the signal's off at the far end). Otherwise (if he's been signalled to the 'near' end and subsequently needs to pass the sign, or has reversed and is starting from in rear of it) he'll need to phone for permission. Only the Western Region would come up with such a bizarre way of working .

Indeed. Incidentally, the front cover of the latest "IRSE News" shows two engineers poring over the scheme plan for the resignalling of Bristol Temple Meads, on which it can be clearly seen that the St. Andrew's cross indicators (I don't regard them as signals) are to be replaced by mid-platform three-aspect signals.

 

[Tomnick]

Thanks - that certainly seems a more sensible way of doing it! The current arrangement always struck me as a bit bizarre.

 

[snail]

Tell you what, why don't we just get NR to lay tracks right to your front door but then again that means you would have to walk (heaven forbid) from your bedroom to the door.

That wouldn't help me change trains. Any other ideas?

 

[user15681]

Down line at Gillingham, platform 3. Stairs and main entrance at the one end. Trains arrive and pull in, stopping at the other end. Hilarious to watch the congregation of passengers hanging around the bottom of the stairs run as a mob down the platform to the train.

 

[Essexman]

Upminster down platform - since DOO 8 coach trains have to stop at the far end of the platform (12 car stop) meaning that in the rush hour passengers on most trains have an extra 30 seconds walk added to their journey and those boarding often have to scamper down the platform to catch the train that surprising them by not stopping by the steps.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Surely one of the takeaways from this thread is that signposting to tell passengers where the trains stop is not good enough?
There are always going to be stations where the entrance to a platform is in a place well away from where a train needs to stop to fully fit in the station or use dispatch equipment and there are always going to be a number of people who stop the instant they arrive on a station platform and then try to pile into the train through the same door but could more be done to inform people of the areas of the platform a train will occupy so they dont have to go running along the platform at the last moment and trains become more evenly loaded? Was the gold zone-blue zone-purple zone thing a failed experiment?

 

[Michael.Y]

As a driver I'm a firm believer in there being one stop mark for all train regardless of length, The pros out weigh the cons from a business view.

So you'd have the same stop point for a HST and a 153?

 

[moogal]

One I noticed today - the DLR does it southbound at All Saints - when running a 2-car train it stops at the far end of the platform away from the stairs. Haven't seen it do that anywhere else on the system...

 

[tsr]

Here's an idea. At stations with this type of problem (trains not stopping where passengers expect them to, to simplify things) which are also provided with many dot-matrix information boards above/beside the platforms, how about having a flashing message saying something like "Train stops further down platform - please move down"? Perhaps this could be as part of a phrase involving the train's details, if more than one service may need to use the platform.

So, for example:

1st 1020 London Bridge        1020
Southern service. Formed of 4 coac
* PLEASE MOVE DOWN THE PLATFORM  *

If there is late running of a service:

1st 1020 London Bridge        1033
1020 LDN BRIDGE TRAIN AT OTHER END
2nd 1034 Reading              1034

(Currently, the display may or may not indicate that the train is scheduled to leave from Platform 1a or 1b, for example, but this information may be hidden in reams of scrolling text and it is not clear exactly what passengers are to do with the information.)

Some termini have such a concept within their automated announcement system for occasions when more than one train is in a platform and passengers must walk down to board the correct service.

 

[A-driver]

Here's an idea. At stations with this type of problem (trains not stopping where passengers expect them to, to simplify things) which are also provided with many dot-matrix information boards above/beside the platforms, how about having a flashing message saying something like "Train stops further down platform - please move down"? Perhaps this could be as part of a phrase involving the train's details, if more than one service may need to use the platform.

So, for example:

1st 1020 London Bridge        1020
Southern service. Formed of 4 coac
* PLEASE MOVE DOWN THE PLATFORM  *

If there is late running of a service:

1st 1020 London Bridge        1033
1020 LDN BRIDGE TRAIN AT OTHER END
2nd 1034 Reading              1034

(Currently, the display may or may not indicate that the train is scheduled to leave from Platform 1a or 1b, for example, but this information may be hidden in reams of scrolling text and it is not clear exactly what passengers are to do with the information.)

Some termini have such a concept within their automated announcement system for occasions when more than one train is in a platform and passengers must walk down to board the correct service.

They all ready do that at places like Hatfield but no one pays any attention.

We have the complete opposite at highbury and islington in the down NCL. 3 car trains stop half way along as the entrance is at the back but there are tunnels linking to the Victoria line all along. The only sign 3 car trains stop there is a dirty stop mark on one if the sleepers. It's hard enough for drivers to spot so no wonder the punters don't realise. To make it worse, drivers have to dispatch by looking back out the window and you get tons of abuse and sarcastic remarks as people walk past the cab thinking you are stopping there to wind them up and normally I find that there is a person on crutches or an old woman with lots of luggage etc right up at the 6 car mark so everyone else has a go at you for being so unsympathetic!

It has been brought up in numerous aslef branch meetings and they have nagged management for ages to get a sign put up advising passengers but nothing has been done.

 

[Jeni]

Some termini have such a concept within their automated announcement system for occasions when more than one train is in a platform and passengers must walk down to board the correct service.

Ahh, the "Front Train Only" confusion! Terribly confusing when this is used at Manchester Piccadilly (unless obviously you know what your train looks like!). For MAN at least, I think "Far Train Only" would be a better phrase to use, I think "Front" could be misinterpreted in this situation.

At New Street they seem to use the phrase "The train at the extreme end of platform x is the.. " which seems to be unambiguous and works well.

 

[bronzeonion]

Another example of the railway changing to convenience the railway rather than the passengers... All this talk of only having S stop markers is nonsense! Yeah lets stop the 2 car train right at the end of a 12 car platform because then the driver doesn't have to remember how many carriages he/she has! And the whole safety thing where doors might open off the platform? Having a guard on the rear would stop that from happening as they have to check the train is platformed before opening the doors. No wonder passenger satisfaction is down

 

[pendolino]

Another example of the railway changing to convenience the railway rather than the passengers... All this talk of only having S stop markers is nonsense! Yeah lets stop the 2 car train right at the end of a 12 car platform because then the driver doesn't have to remember how many carriages he/she has! And the whole safety thing where doors might open off the platform? Having a guard on the rear would stop that from happening as they have to check the train is platformed before opening the doors. No wonder passenger satisfaction is down

Don't get confused between what a few posters on here have stated they would like to see, and what happens in the real world. As I said several pages back, many drivers would like to see S car marks only, but this will never happen because the people who make these decisions have to weigh up safety and a number of other factors including passenger convenience. And it hasn't happened generally, so I can't see why it would be a contributing factor to passenger satisfaction being down.

That was quite a bizarre post of yours really, criticisng the railway for doing something it hasn't actually done.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Isn't there the strange situation of the Heathrow Connect services to Paddington stopping at Ealing Broadway where the rest of the FGW services don't i.e. Heathrow Connect stops a long way down the platform, but FGW stop near the stairs?

Or am I imagining this? :?

 

[Class2ldn]

Does anyone know why in so many stations, trains often stop away from the main platform entrances? As a passenger it seems like a very reasonable expectation that trains will stop so that at least one carriage is by the point where you come onto the platform, and it seems incomprehensible and very inconsiderate when they don't. From what I've seen, that problem often leads to people being caught out and having to run up the platform after the train has arrived. Indeed, on one or two occasions I myself have actually missed trains that I would have caught if they'd stopped by the platform entrance.

From my own experience, mainly commuting, it seems to be mainly a problem at stations where the main entrance is right at one end of the platform but where trains stop some way further up - in some cases considerably further up - the platform.

Examples on my own commute:
Abbey Wood - anything less than 10 carriages heading to London
Woolwich Arsenal - anything less than 8 carriages heading towards Dartford
Lewisham - going towards Blackheath
London Bridge - Platform 1

I'm guessing that in some cases the reason may be to do with placement of mirrors etc. for the driver to look along the platform, but if so, presumably the solution would be almost trivially inexpensive? Would be interested to hear from those more informed what the reason actually is.

Right im a driver for southeastern so let me explain how the monitors are set out at each one

Abbey wood london bound has a 4 car monitor then everything else stops at the end even 5 cars. Yes its a pain but they wont move the monitors at the 4 car mark to accomodate a six car

Lewisham is 456 then 8/10/12 so with an 8 the back is quite far from the stairs

Woolwich 4 then 5/6/8 so a 5/6 car will be a bit further down

London bridge plat 1 is a funny one as with a 4 car your on the london side of the stairs so anyone coming down the other side doesnt always see the train effectively behind them. 5/6 is not much of a problem really.

It all boils down to making it a bit more uniformed. If they had a different car mark for every length of train the amount of stop shorts would be through the roof.

 

[ess]

You're right. Similarly at Hayes & Harlington HC stop a long way down the platform resulting in scenes of confusion and delay.

 

[SWT_USER]

Isn't there the strange situation of the Heathrow Connect services to Paddington stopping at Ealing Broadway where the rest of the FGW services don't i.e. Heathrow Connect stops a long way down the platform, but FGW stop near the stairs?

Or am I imagining this? :?

You're right. Similarly at Hayes & Harlington HC stop a long way down the platform resulting in scenes of confusion and delay.

That's because they are 5 coach trains, it's the same for FGW if there is a 3 car + 2 car 165/166 combo.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Right im a driver for southeastern so let me explain how the monitors are set out at each one

Abbey wood london bound has a 4 car monitor then everything else stops at the end even 5 cars. Yes its a pain but they wont move the monitors at the 4 car mark to accomodate a six car

Lewisham is 456 then 8/10/12 so with an 8 the back is quite far from the stairs

Woolwich 4 then 5/6/8 so a 5/6 car will be a bit further down

London bridge plat 1 is a funny one as with a 4 car your on the london side of the stairs so anyone coming down the other side doesnt always see the train effectively behind them. 5/6 is not much of a problem really.

It all boils down to making it a bit more uniformed. If they had a different car mark for every length of train the amount of stop shorts would be through the roof.

Thanks for the explanation of those stations. It's appreciated

 

[jon0844]

Surely one of the takeaways from this thread is that signposting to tell passengers where the trains stop is not good enough?

I just came back from Barcelona and when getting the train at Luton Airport Parkway, there was only a small S Car Stop sign at the far end - so I walked down (into an area that was quite exposed, it has to be said).

The next train was a 4-car service, so you can imagine that everyone else was waiting by the bottom of the stairs or the lift - or had moved down to the waiting areas. And, yes, they were all now trying to board pretty much on one carriage - all with bags of varying sizes.

You'd think the station operator (EMT or FCC?) might see some value in showing where trains stop in a tourist/infrequent user friendly way?

Still, on the plus side, I had maybe 3 other people in my carriage (plus whoever was in first class).

And, for what it's worth, when I was waiting for my Renfe train to Barcelona Airport, I was totally unsure where to stand for my train as the many trains arriving were of different lengths (and train types) and stopping all over the place. However, people seemed to spread quite evenly along the platform - but when a train arrives, none have realised that standing aside to let people off is a good idea - they just pile on as people come off. Quite amazing to watch as nobody argues, yet it looks a small step away from carnage!

 

[TDK]

Ahh, the "Front Train Only" confusion! Terribly confusing when this is used at Manchester Piccadilly (unless obviously you know what your train looks like!). For MAN at least, I think "Far Train Only" would be a better phrase to use, I think "Front" could be misinterpreted in this situation.

At New Street they seem to use the phrase "The train at the extreme end of platform x is the.. " which seems to be unambiguous and works well.

At New Street trains can travel in either direction as it is not a terminus. At Manchester it is only Platform 13 & 14 that are throgh platforms so if a passenger does not know what direction the train will be travelling considering there are buffer stops and a concourse one end of the train maybe anyone selling tickets to passengers should check their IQ before selling them a ticket.

The front to me means from the direction of travel so if at Manchester they say the front train it is quite easy really to work it out. Maybe they could say the front 4 coaches but then again I suppose the passenger would say "Is there a coach replacement for this service". It could be the front 4 carriages but then you may get asked "Where are the Horses". On a serious note generally speaking the rear set/unit are generally locked out so it would be physically impossible to board the wrong train unless the train is complete and the train divides en route.

 

[A-driver]

At New Street trains can travel in either direction as it is not a terminus. At Manchester it is only Platform 13 & 14 that are throgh platforms so if a passenger does not know what direction the train will be travelling considering there are buffer stops and a concourse one end of the train maybe anyone selling tickets to passengers should check their IQ before selling them a ticket.

The front to me means from the direction of travel so if at Manchester they say the front train it is quite easy really to work it out. Maybe they could say the front 4 coaches but then again I suppose the passenger would say "Is there a coach replacement for this service". It could be the front 4 carriages but then you may get asked "Where are the Horses". On a serious note generally speaking the rear set/unit are generally locked out so it would be physically impossible to board the wrong train unless the train is complete and the train divides en route.

Not so long ago they tried a 'brilliant' new system at kings cross on the late evening mainliners. Basically an 8 car generally splits on the suburban platforms and the front 4 formed the xx53 semi fast Cambridge whilst the rear 4 formed the xx07 cruiser to peterbourgh.

The new idea was to advertise both simultaneously by having platform 9a for the xx53 and 9b for the xx07. Both trains would be open at once and it was down to passengers to get in the right one. Absolute carnage and it lasted about 3 weeks before being scrapped. Passengers for Stevenage and letchworth ending up first stop Biggleswade and passengers for st Neots ending up at finsbury park/Stevenage unable to get on the cruiser that they wanted as it dosnt stop until Biggleswade!

 

[talltim]

From my experience with 7 car 222s in Chesterfield station northbound, it would be in the railway's interest to put in another stop marker because it delays departure, especially when the first class is to the rear so everyone has to walk past three coaches to get on (I know they don't HAVE to walk past them, but they do.)

 

[cjp]

That's because they are 5 coach trains, it's the same for FGW if there is a 3 car + 2 car 165/166 combo.

FYI
Some years ago I spoke to the Station Manager covering these stations (Matt I think it was) about how silly it was the 5 car Heathrow connect trains stop where they do as none of the carriages aligned with the station canopy. This was as they were putting new cameras and monitors.
He agreed and said that he had raised it an issue but getting Network rail to agree a change (even when replacing equipement) was an uphill struggle.

He was going to retire and did not expect to see the sensible change taking place so, except when a three or two carriage train arrives, passengers would all have to continue to walk out into the rain or snow or sunshine.

Over half the trains at have more than 3 carriages