Overcrowding on Manchester - Scotland TPE services

[PhilipW]

After electrification will the 4-car Class 350s be enough to eliminate the overcrowding problems? I wonder

I don't know exactly how many sets will be required to operate an hourly service, but I would estimate around 7 to 8. With only 10 sets ordered and 1 of those probably out of action at any one time for maintenance, this leads very little scope for any doubling up to 8-carriage units at peak times.

 

[northwichcat]

4-car voyagers have roughly the same number of seats as a 3-car 185 so it wouldn't have helped unless used to provide extra services, and there probably aren't the paths on the WCML to do that.

Not quite true. TPE made a big deal with the 185s having only 5 less standard class seats than the 4 car 220s they replaced but if the 4 car 220s had remained on Manchester-Scotland and had the shop removed (like the XC ones did) then there would have been more standard class seats. Also the 185s have a much smaller FC section than the 220s.

The 2 hourly through Windermere services could have remained had the 185s not been nabbed for Scottish services.
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After electrification will the 4-car Class 350s be enough to eliminate the overcrowding problems? I wonder

I don't know exactly how many sets will be required to operate an hourly service, but I would estimate around 7 to 8. With only 10 sets ordered and 1 probably out of action at any time for maintenance, this leads very little scope for any doubling up to 8-carriage units at peak times.

TPE have said they plan to have some 8 carriage workings on Saturday but that will mean some 185s running on the fully electrified route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 2 hourly through Windermere services could have remained had the 185s not been nabbed for Scottish services.

May I enquire if the current and final residue of direct Manchester Airport to Windermere services will finally be totally eradicated once the next timetable comes into operation. I think there is one such service that leaves Manchester Airport just prior to 0930 hours.

 

[ainsworth74]

but if the 4 car 220s had remained on Manchester-Scotland and had the shop removed (like the XC ones did) then there would have been more standard class seats.

Not really. The shop was removed in favour of creating a large luggage/bike storage space. Hardly any seats were created by removing the shops.

After electrification will the 4-car Class 350s be enough to eliminate the overcrowding problems? I wonder

Very unlikely. The 350s will only offer around 20 extra seats compared to the 185s. I don't think the overcrowding on this line will be solved until TPE get their own dedicated units, rather than some LM add-ons.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Very unlikely. The 350s will only offer around 20 extra seats compared to the 185s. I don't think the overcrowding on this line will be solved until TPE get their own dedicated units, rather than some LM add-ons.

With an order large enough to allow 8 car operation on select services rather than the current pathetic order which allows no doubling up (except for weekends when 185s drafted in to run under the wires...)

If i am wrong please tell me :P

 

[tbtc]

The 350s will only offer around 20 extra seats compared to the 185s. I don't think the overcrowding on this line will be solved until TPE get their own dedicated units, rather than some LM add-ons.

Only twenty extra seats, but I don't think that there are currently eight 185s required to fill the "Scottish" TPE services, so the increased number of trains should make a difference too (i.e. ten 350/4s should mean eight in service most of the time, which will be more than the current number of TPE 185s used on Scottish services).

 

[northwichcat]

Not really. The shop was removed in favour of creating a large luggage/bike storage space. Hardly any seats were created by removing the shops.

But XC removed existing luggage racks to add extra seats. The XC 4 car Voyagers now have 176 standard class so that's 22 more standard class seats than a 3 car 185. TPE said the 185s only has 5 less standard class seats than the 4 car Voyagers at the time the Scottish route was transferred.

 

[snail]

But XC removed existing luggage racks to add extra seats. The XC 4 car Voyagers now have 176 standard class so that's 22 more standard class seats than a 3 car 185.

That still wouldn't solve the overcrowding. There are far more than 22 standing on most 3-car services.

 

[Martin222002]

Something long term that has recently gone through my mind, is that once the XC Bournemouth to Manchester route is fully electric, with the completion of the Electric Spine, that these services could then be merged with the TPE Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow services.

This would result in XC having an hourly Bournemouth to Edinburgh/Glasgow service via Birmingham and Manchester, which could take adavantage of the EPS line speeds between Birmingham and Edinburgh/Glasgow by using tilt fitted stock, ie 7-8 car Pendolino's.

This would have 3 benefits, in that it would link new destinations with direct trains, reduce journey times by using tilting stock, and bring an additional revenue stream to the CrossCountry franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

That still wouldn't solve the overcrowding. There are far more than 22 standing on most 3-car services.

There's also the extra First Class seats which could be declassified if standard is overcrowded. Alternatively, half of the First Class carriage could have been converted to standard class with a partition dividing the two sections.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's also the extra First Class seats which could be declassified if standard is overcrowded. Alternatively, half of the First Class carriage could have been converted to standard class with a partition dividing the two sections.

May I ask if anyone has access to any recorded occupancy records of the First-Class accommodation of these units in current service provision which may reveal a need or otherwise for such a stated provision.

 

[dggar]

There's also the extra First Class seats which could be declassified if standard is overcrowded. Alternatively, half of the First Class carriage could have been converted to standard class with a partition dividing the two sections.

Are you implying the theTPE sets have a complete carriage given over to 1st class?

http://help.thetrainline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4237/~/first-transpennine-express-seating-maps.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are you implying the theTPE sets have a complete carriage given over to 1st class?

http://help.thetrainline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4237/~/first-transpennine-express-seating-maps.

I believe that jcollins is referring to the first class carriage of Voyagers, not 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

Are you implying the theTPE sets have a complete carriage given over to 1st class?

http://help.thetrainline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4237/~/first-transpennine-express-seating-maps.

I believe that jcollins is referring to the first class carriage of Voyagers, not 185s.

I was referring to the first class carriage on a Voyager. I was following on the discussion about 'only a few extra seats' on a 4 car Voyager over a 185.
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May I ask if anyone has access to any recorded occupancy records of the First-Class accommodation of these units in current service provision which may reveal a need or otherwise for such a stated provision.

Would First Class passengers actually want to use TPE north of Preston unless they got a very cheap TPE Advance?

Up to a full meal would be provided if they switch to Virgin at Preston, whereas on TPE maybe a cup of tea and a small packet of shortbread?

 

[F Great Eastern]

The problem with TPE is that they have had big passenger increases since they took over the franchise, and have been a victim of their own success to be fair, rather than actually creating this situation by cost cutting as we see in some operators. This has meant that quickly demand has outstripped capacity.

I see a commuter daily who says he is glad First did not get the West Coast franchise since they have problems with overcrowding on three franchises when Virgin do not, but he doesn't believe others when they tell him that pretty much all three of the franchises in question are hit by factors outside their control which is more related to government policy, dithering and delays and micromanagement more than the TOC's.

However the average Joe doesn't know that FCC is overcrowded because that the Thameslink Programme is hideously delayed due to government dithering, FGW is overcrowded because the IEP is years behind due to continual delay,s and TPE is overcrowded because TPE were not allowed to extend the trains they wanted to.

It really annoys me that TOCs are often taking the flack for something which is due to the way that the industry is micromanaged. The average commuter thinks that someone can go and order some trains the next day and get them delivered 6-12 months later and that is all there is to it. They don't realise that the government gets the final say, cuts the order, the length of the trains, or handles the procurement altogether which gets held up for many years.

I'm not one of those people who believes everything should be re-nationalised, but the current situation regarding procurement for rolling stock is madness and has failed. But blame daily continues to be placed on powerless TOCs who are unable to deal with the issues as they are simply outside their remit.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem with TPE is that they have had big passenger increases since they took over the franchise, and have been a victim of their own success ...
and TPE is overcrowded because TPE were not allowed to extend the trains they wanted to.

And because TPE were made to run Scottish services in the paths of Manchester Airport to Windermere services when they didn't have enough stock to do that.

First Group would have been aware that with Sprinters services operated on TPE routes with 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 car formations and occasionally 8 car formations for special events, with many services already overcrowded under an Arriva franchise that hadn't been operating that well.

With ordering 3 car trains with the hope of lengthening some to 4 car the flexibility was reduced and on some routes overcrowding got worst without any increase in passenger numbers. They also would have realised that due to the commuter compromised layout they asked for and the accessibility requirements that the 185s provided much less seats than the 3 car 158s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I return to the matter of the First Class seating in the Class 185 units. When the final design stage was looked at for these units, was the current 17-seat First Class seating capacity deemed to be the optimum number in a 3-car set of these units.

 

[northwichcat]

May I return to the matter of the First Class seating in the Class 185 units. When the final design stage was looked at for these units, was the current 17-seat First Class seating capacity deemed to be the optimum number in a 3-car set of these units.

How does that number compare to the number of First Class seats on the old 158s?

Also remember the Hull service was not advertised as having first class prior to the 185s being introduced. Under ATN 156s frequently turned up on that route and TPE put the 2 x 158s that they had subleased from FNW (without FC) on Hull services and then replaced them with former CT 158s (again without FC.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How does that number compare to the number of First Class seats on the old 158s?

Whilst the query concerning the Class 158 units you raise is of interest, it does not answer the question that I raised in my posting with regard to the final design stage of a 3-car Class 185 unit when the optimum seating capacity of First Class provision for such a 3-car unit was something that must have been approved, prior to construction actually taking place.

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst the query concerning the Class 158 units you raise is of interest, it does not answer the question that I raised in my posting with regard to the final design stage of a 3-car Class 185 unit when the optimum seating capacity of First Class provision for such a 3-car unit was something that must have been approved, prior to construction actually taking place.

If I was the operator deciding how many FC seats are needed on the new trains I would first want to know the number on existing trains and how frequently they are all occupied to decide on the answer to your question. Although, Virgin seem to pluck a number out of thin air for the Pendolinos.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Although, Virgin seem to pluck a number out of thin air for the Pendolinos.

My congratulations for reading between the lines and coming up with the very good point about Virgin and the Pendolino design. Would the "out of the air" connection in your posting be a connection to the percentage number of business-class seats in the Virgin Atlantic fleet ?

 

[Class83]

The 3 car 185s are pretty inadequate in both comfort and capacity, but the 3/4 of a coach, 1/4 of the whole train wasted with the disabled toilet (this is necessary, but could they have found a less space efficient way to include it) and the first class section which I really can't see the point of on a train this size. As an example the Scotrail 170s have 20 more seats.

However, the real problem is that TPX shouldn't be running the service as they simply don't have enough trains. Now the route is being electrified it should be returned to the West Coast and operated by 6 car (5+1) pendolinos similar to those proposed for the Birmingham-Scotland route. I'd also suggest putting the disabled accommodation in the 1st class carriage, to maximise the number of seats in the 5 standard carriages.

 

[yorksrob]

This route is quite long and has intercity characteristics. A good case for some loco haulage - and doubling up of existing units? At least until electrification is complete.

 

[snail]

Alternatively, half of the First Class carriage could have been converted to standard class with a partition dividing the two sections.

Or the 185s could have 3+2 seating. Where does it end?

 

[northwichcat]

Or the 185s could have 3+2 seating. Where does it end?

I was saying what could have been realistically be done with the Voyagers had they stayed on Manchester-Scotland. 3+2 seating on 185s isn't a realistic option given the nature of the routes unless you wanted to do that on a small number of trains and to designate those trains to Blackpool services.

 

[John07]

The 3 car 185s are pretty inadequate in both comfort and capacity, but the 3/4 of a coach, 1/4 of the whole train wasted with the disabled toilet (this is necessary, but could they have found a less space efficient way to include it) and the first class section which I really can't see the point of on a train this size. As an example the Scotrail 170s have 20 more seats.

However, the real problem is that TPX shouldn't be running the service as they simply don't have enough trains. Now the route is being electrified it should be returned to the West Coast and operated by 6 car (5+1) pendolinos similar to those proposed for the Birmingham-Scotland route. I'd also suggest putting the disabled accommodation in the 1st class carriage, to maximise the number of seats in the 5 standard carriages.

I am a regular on the Edinburgh-Manchester service and generally travel first class because of the issues that have been raised.

The trains are certainly inadequate for a journey of that length.

 

[khib70]

I also use this route frequently, and like the previous poster, go for First Class every time. Not only are the 185's utterly inadequate for a major intercity route, they're uncomfortable and badly designed.

And whoever thought up the genius idea of turning a major intercity service into a Greater Manchester commuter train en route needs to be forced to spend a week travelling the route in both directions - which is just about the worst punishment I could wish on anyone.

 

[tbtc]

This "major Intercity service" used to be run by 158s, to put things in perspective

 

[Nym]

This "major Intercity service" used to be run by 158s, to put things in perspective

So does one need anything much else to indicate the levels of growth being experienced?

 

[northwichcat]

This "major Intercity service" used to be run by 158s, to put things in perspective

There were also some HSTs that did Scotland-Manchester-Birmingham at the busiest times of day.