Farringdon - London Terminals Access

[adamafc]

Hi all,

I'm due to start a new job next month in Farringdon and will be travelling from Horley in Surrey.

I plan on buying a yearly season ticket (from three bridges - as it's cheaper than Horley for some reason - to Farringdon). Having done some research on this journey, I have discovered that the First Capital Connect service from Horley/Three bridges to Farringdon is frequently late and sometimes cancelled.

I would like to know that I would have a backup option should this be the case and would be able to travel in to London Bridge/Victoria and get the tube from there.

What I can't seem to find out though is if my ticket to Farringdon would allow me to access London Bridge/Victoria so I could get the tube.

Has anyone else had any problems with this? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I do understand that I would have to pay extra to use the tube when needed which wouldn't be a problem but it seems that I'll have to pay an extra 1k a year on my season ticket just so I can get into London Bridge or Victoria to get to the Underground in the first place.

Thanks guys.

Adam

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is debate on many levels for this enquiry and to be honest I don't have all night to go through it all, so, to go straight to the point, yes it is valid to London Bridge (a season ticket is valid to any intermediate station along a permitted route - taking into account the routeing of the ticket) and I believe it IS valid to Victoria (but I also believe you will almost certainly need to explain it to staff when you get there and that may be more hassle than it is worth).

 

[MikeWh]

London Bridge is on the route to Farringdon so there is no problem getting off there. Victoria is a problem, but you could change at East Croydon onto an alternative service to London Bridge. Unless, of course, the season is FCC only.

 

[johnnycache]

I work for Southern

the fares for a 7 day season to Farringdon Underground route Not Underground are as follows:

Horley £75.40 (set by Southern)
Gatwick Airport £62.50 (set by First Capital Connect)
Three Bridges £71.70 (set by First Capital Connect)

The cheapest fare seems to be from Gatwick Airport
this will be useful as there aren't that many fast trains that call at Horley and you may often wish to travel via Gatwick Airport

In terms of validity this ticket it is valid on all operators

 

[bb21]

Horley - Farringdon season will be routed Not Underground, so you will only be permitted to stop short at London Bridge, but not carry on using London Underground.

We debated a similar case whether you are permitted to travel to Victoria using a season ticket specifically to St Pancras routed in such a manner. There was no consensus. My opinion stands that it is not permitted to be used to travel to Victoria.

That said, if you buy a season ticket to London Terminals, which is priced the same as the Farringdon ticket and routed Any Permitted, you can travel to either London Bridge or Victoria. It also allows you to go as far as City Thameslink on Thameslink core (but not Farringdon), however City Thameslink is only a short walk from Farringdon (10 minutes). This ticket does not give you inclusive travel on London Underground though.

Gatwick Airport £62.50 (set by First Capital Connect)

That is likely to be the cheapest option (but not valid into Victoria imo).

Strangely Gatwick Airport - London Terminals is priced by Southern and at the same level as the Horley ticket.

 

[wellhouse]

As has been said above, a season ticket to Farringdon is always valid to London Bridge (even on a train or trains that do not go on to Farringdon)

You should be aware that major work starts this year at London Bridge, and will interfere with normal services for several years.

www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/12179.aspx

You can expect service alterations from time to time. Some peak FCC Thameslink services avoid London Bridge, running via Herne Hill, and more will do so during the Engineering Work.

You might consider these options;

1. Season Ticket to Underground Zone 1, which will be valid via Victoria, and enable you to travel freely in Central London, but will cost more.

2. Oyster Pay As You Go which you can use to complete your journey on those occasions when you can only reach London Bridge.

In the past when Thameslink services have been suspended through the central core (Kentish Town/St Pancras - Blackfriars), arrangements have been made for rail tickets to be accepted on the 63 bus.

You may also find that a ticket through to St Pancras is the same price as Farrringdon, which may be convenient from time to time.

Should you find that the season ticket you buy is not the best option, it is possible to change to a new season for the remaining validity if you wish, so you could start with a Farringdon ticket, and change it to a Zone 1 season after a month or two should that prove a better option.

 

[clagmonster]

1. Season Ticket to Underground Zone 1, which will be valid via Victoria, and enable you to travel freely in Central London, but will cost more.

There are no seasons to Underground Zones, only out-boundary travelcard seasons and point to point, such as Horley to Farringdon.

 

[soil]

The Gatwick - London Bridge ticket is routed FCC only, and is not valid beyond Blackfriars.

The Gatwick -St Pancras ticket is routed London not Underground, and is valid to Farringdon & St Pancras, but is not valid to Victoria

Gatwick - Elephant & Castle is routed Not Underground, and is valid on both Southern and FCC services into London. It wouldn't be valid beyond Blackfriars IMO

 

[34D]

As has been said above, a season ticket to Farringdon is always valid to London Bridge (even on a train or trains that do not go on to Farringdon)

Pedant - only where London Bridge lies on a permitted route.

In the past when Thameslink services have been suspended through the central core (Kentish Town/St Pancras - Blackfriars), arrangements have been made for rail tickets to be accepted on the 63 bus.

Indeed, and when there is unplanned disruption, FCC etc often advise (via twitter and their website) that Southern/London Underground/London Buses are passing FCC tickets over any reasonable route. Depending on what/where the problem is, of course.

 

[soil]

Horley - Farringdon season will be routed Not Underground, so you will only be permitted to stop short at London Bridge, but not carry on using London Underground.

We debated a similar case whether you are permitted to travel to Victoria using a season ticket specifically to St Pancras routed in such a manner. There was no consensus. My opinion stands that it is not permitted to be used to travel to Victoria.

While I concur that the St Pancras ticket was not valid to Victoria, I think a Farringdon ticket is.

Farringdon is not a member of the London routeing point group, but is a linked station. Therefore valid routes to Farringdon are mapped routes to the London Routeing Point group, plus the shortest route from there to Farringdon.

The train from Gatwick to London Victoria runs via Selhurst and Wandsworth Common (which is mapped), and the shortest route from Victoria to Farringdon is then via Denmark Hill. Since this route does not double back, a London - Farringdon ticket can be used to travel to Victoria, even though a London - St Pancras ticket cannot.

 

[adamafc]

Thanks for the all of the replies. Much appreciated. It's good to know that I should be able to enter London Bridge station using my ticket to access the underground.

Thanks again.

Adam

 

[maniacmartin]

Thanks for the all of the replies. Much appreciated. It's good to know that I should be able to enter London Bridge station using my ticket to access the underground.

Thanks again.

Adam

No one said you could access the underground at london bridge though....

 

[MikeWh]

No one said you could access the underground at london bridge though....

In the OP he said ...

I would like to know that I would have a backup option should this be the case and would be able to travel in to London Bridge/Victoria and get the tube from there.

...

I do understand that I would have to pay extra to use the tube when needed which wouldn't be a problem

 

[johnnycache]

I work for Southern

I must admit I had not realised Farringdon Underground was not a member of the London Routeing Point Group until reading this thread.

It must be unique for a station to be in an enclave surrounded by other stations who are all in the same group

I wonder if the same applied to Moorgate Underground and Barbican Underground before the closure of the Moorgate branch. Probably did.

If Farringdon is not in the London Routeing Point Group then the Group is part of the journey ie intermediate rather than the destination. This normally means doubling back is allowed for interchange but not break of journey. I would say then for some journeys (not this one) it might be ok to travel as follows: origin to Cannon Street to London Bridge or origin to Waterloo East to London Bridge. Anyone agree?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You can take any mapped route to the destination routeing point and then you must take the shortest route to the destination station (there is no accounting for longer routes when using a mapped route, except for inter-available routes), you cannot double back. Make of that what you will.

 

[soil]

I work for Southern

I must admit I had not realised Farringdon Underground was not a member of the London Routeing Point Group until reading this thread.

It must be unique for a station to be in an enclave surrounded by other stations who are all in the same group

I wonder if the same applied to Moorgate Underground and Barbican Underground before the closure of the Moorgate branch. Probably did.

I suspect this was changed at some point.

If you look at map LB

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=56

you can see that it is at least five years out of date, but indicates that Farringdon was previously a part of the London Routeing Point group.

Unfortunately, in this, and other cases, it is necessary to apply corrections to the contractual, we-can-give-you-a-criminal-record-for-not-complying, routeing rules.

Presumably the change here was made to protect FCC's revenue, which they protect with the aid of contradictory, confusing and error-infested rules, which they clearly have no incentive to correct, given the imbalance between them on the one hand, with a paid staff dedicated to threatening costly and career-threatening penalties on individuals, and the individuals on the other, who can do nothing more than write a few letters, which are likely to be misunderstood by the TOC, and ultimately expend large amounts of time, money and stress defending their case.

 

[bb21]

While I concur that the St Pancras ticket was not valid to Victoria, I think a Farringdon ticket is.

Farringdon is not a member of the London routeing point group, but is a linked station. Therefore valid routes to Farringdon are mapped routes to the London Routeing Point group, plus the shortest route from there to Farringdon.

The train from Gatwick to London Victoria runs via Selhurst and Wandsworth Common (which is mapped), and the shortest route from Victoria to Farringdon is then via Denmark Hill. Since this route does not double back, a London - Farringdon ticket can be used to travel to Victoria, even though a London - St Pancras ticket cannot.

I must say I am surprised that Farringdon is not part of London Group.

That said, is Farringdon - Victoria via Denmark Hill with 3 miles of Farringdon - London Bridge? Or indeed within 3 miles of Farringdon - City Thameslink? I can't check at the moment as I'm on the move. If not, then i think the situation might be less clear cut.

 

[soil]

I must say I am surprised that Farringdon is not part of London Group.

That said, is Farringdon - Victoria via Denmark Hill with 3 miles of Farringdon - London Bridge? Or indeed within 3 miles of Farringdon - City Thameslink? I can't check at the moment as I'm on the move. If not, then i think the situation might be less clear cut.

The 3 mile rule doesn't apply in this case, as it is a mapped route - only the shortest route is valid.

The instructions are not unambiguous:

"If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points."

Clearly Gatwick Airport - Victoria is a permitted route between London Routeing Point Group and Gatwick Airport Routeing Point.

The shortest route from Farringdon to the London Routeing Point Group is to City Thameslink.

There are lots of issues with this however.

As discussed here:

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1358739&postcount=3

the shortest route from Sandhurst to the relevant routeing point for a Sandhurst - Clapham Junction ticket, namely Farnborough Routeing Point Group, is to Blackwater, which is a couple of miles from Farnborough (North) and even further from Farnborough Main, which you would have to walk to to take the direct train to Clapham Junction.

Clearly then it's implied, if not stated, that having taken the shortest route to the routeing point group, you can continue within the routeing point group in order to make an interchange, e.g., Church Fenton to Leeds, not merely to Micklefield.

The question then is whether you can choose between stations in the routeing point group.

Logically I guess this would be absurd, because distances between routeing point stations can be large. E.g., Frizinghall - Manchester Stations via Hebden Bridge would be valid to Bradford Forster Square and then from Bradford Interchange to Manchester via Hebden Bridge.

It wouldn't be valid on the shortest route from Frizinghall to Bradford Interchange, which would be via Leeds.

"If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points."

So a Farringdon - Gatwick Airport is permitted on the shortest route to the (London) routeing point, which is Farringdon - City Thameslink.

Plus permitted routes between routeing points:

Victoria - Gatwick, London Bridge - Gatwick, etc.

There is nothing that states that the routes should join up, indeed the purpose of routeing point groups is often to create a connection on foot, e.g, between Dorking stations, Farnborough stations, Wigan stations, and so, without forcing absurd 30+ mile journeys to link them.

So there doesn't seem any reason why you shouldn't do Farringdon - City Thameslink (and onwards entirely within the group, to Blackfriars, London Bridge, Waterloo East, Charing Cross and Cannon Street), plus all mapped routes between London and Gatwick (which incidentally includes Gatwick - Victoria - Denmark Hill - Blackfriars).

Incidentally, a New Southgate - Farringdon ticket would appear not to be valid between Farringdon and St Pancras!
This is because City Thameslink is the closer than St Pancras You could however argue that the 'London Not Underground' means that you can travel between St Pancras and Farringdon by FCC though.....

 

[johnnycache]

The whole question of when you can walk and when you can't confuses me!

But we seem to be agreed (are we?) that Farringdon not being in the London Routeing Point Group gives more flexibility than if it was in the Group

 

[soil]

The whole question of when you can walk and when you can't confuses me!

But we seem to be agreed (are we?) that Farringdon not being in the London Routeing Point Group gives more flexibility than if it was in the Group

It's arguable

According to the Routeing Guide:

"LONDON GROUP STATIONS
These stations form the London Group of routeing points for travel from to or via London. Customers may travel to or via any of the stations which is on the permitted route or train service for the journey being made. "

A journey from Gatwick Airport to St Pancras is a journey from Gatwick Airport to the London Routeing Point Group.

Therefore on the basis the ticket is valid on all mapped routes to LONDON. Which would include Victoria.

You can infer from the presence of named London Group stations on the maps that mapped routes can be valid only to specific stations.

However you could equally infer that these stations are named in order that the specific valid routes be clearly identifiable.

There is certainly nothing in writing to contradict the general concept that routes are mapped Routeing Point to Routeing Point rather than station to station, and therefore a Gatwick Airport to London St Pancras ticket is valid on all routes between Gatwick Airport and the London Routeing Point Group.

 

[bb21]

The 3 mile rule doesn't apply in this case, as it is a mapped route - only the shortest route is valid.

Yes, you are correct. My mind was clearly elsewhere when I typed this up.

As discussed here:

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1358739&postcount=3

the shortest route from Sandhurst to the relevant routeing point for a Sandhurst - Clapham Junction ticket, namely Farnborough Routeing Point Group, is to Blackwater, which is a couple of miles from Farnborough (North) and even further from Farnborough Main, which you would have to walk to to take the direct train to Clapham Junction.

There is not really a gap though in this case. I think it might depend on how you look at it. Blackwater - Clapham Junction via Farnborough North and Farnborough Main is a mapped route on map WX.

Clearly then it's implied, if not stated, that having taken the shortest route to the routeing point group, you can continue within the routeing point group in order to make an interchange, e.g., Church Fenton to Leeds, not merely to Micklefield.

However there is not necessarily a gap as Micklefield is also represented by the blob "Leeds" on a map. If there were a gap between Micklefield and Leeds, the gap would not be an issue as the journey from Leeds onwards can simply be started at Micklefield using the same map.

I suspect the truth might be somewhere in between our own interpretations.

The question then is whether you can choose between stations in the routeing point group.

Logically I guess this would be absurd, because distances between routeing point stations can be large. E.g., Frizinghall - Manchester Stations via Hebden Bridge would be valid to Bradford Forster Square and then from Bradford Interchange to Manchester via Hebden Bridge.

It wouldn't be valid on the shortest route from Frizinghall to Bradford Interchange, which would be via Leeds.

"If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points."

I agree.

So a Farringdon - Gatwick Airport is permitted on the shortest route to the (London) routeing point, which is Farringdon - City Thameslink.

Plus permitted routes between routeing points:

Victoria - Gatwick, London Bridge - Gatwick, etc.

There is nothing that states that the routes should join up, indeed the purpose of routeing point groups is often to create a connection on foot, e.g, between Dorking stations, Farnborough stations, Wigan stations, and so, without forcing absurd 30+ mile journeys to link them.

I think the fundamental issue is whether once you have reached City Thameslink as the shortest route from Farringdon to London group, you are allowed to go anywhere within the group before continuing onto the next part. This would not normally be an issue with other routeing point groups as the whole group is represented by the same blob on the maps and more often than not, there is only one or two choices as to how to proceed within the group. The issue with London group is obviously that each station is individually identified on the maps.

So once the passenger reaches City Thameslink, can he/she then only go on routes permitted between City Thameslink and Gatwick Airport, or any permitted routes between London group and Gatwick Airport? The NRG is silent on this matter which is pretty unique to London group and I do not know either way.

I agree to a certain extent that it is sensible to allow all permitted routes between London Group and Gatwick Airport from that point onwards, as there is nothing to suggest that you have to continue from the station where the routeing point group is reached (City Thameslink in this case) although I don't believe the situation is clear cut.

Incidentally, a New Southgate - Farringdon ticket would appear not to be valid between Farringdon and St Pancras!
This is because City Thameslink is the closer than St Pancras You could however argue that the 'London Not Underground' means that you can travel between St Pancras and Farringdon by FCC though.....

Yes, I suppose this would be one of the side-effects of interpreting the NRG in a more strict manner.

The thing with Farringdon (and its unique situation) is that I suspect the intentions were to permit travel beyond the relevant London Terminals depending on where you come from (north/south). In that light, I think it would make sense that Farringdon is only permitted as an add-on for travel towards City Thameslink. Using the NRG (I know we are supposed to use it officially) with Farringdon is more trouble than its worth.

I couldn't possibly say what my conclusion is on this one.

 

[soil]

There is not really a gap though in this case. I think it might depend on how you look at it. Blackwater - Clapham Junction via Farnborough North and Farnborough Main is a mapped route on map WX.

Yes I guess that is actually true.

The blob means you can travel between any arbitrary stations in the group, including doubling back for routeing purposes.

Ditto for Micklefield.

I think the fundamental issue is whether once you have reached City Thameslink as the shortest route from Farringdon to London group, you are allowed to go anywhere within the group before continuing onto the next part. This would not normally be an issue with other routeing point groups as the whole group is represented by the same blob on the maps and more often than not, there is only one or two choices as to how to proceed within the group. The issue with London group is obviously that each station is individually identified on the maps.

On maps CT, LP, OV, SV and ZZ, London is not specifically identified.

Maps CT and SV are New Cross to London, which permits New Cross - London Bridge, plus London Bridge - Cannon Street, London Bridge - Blackfriars, Blackfriars - City Thameslink, London Bridge - Waterloo East, and Waterloo East - Charing Cross.

Map LP is Clapham Junction to London, which minimally would include Victoria and Waterloo, but possibly all the other south London Terminals via Waterloo and walk to Waterloo East.

Map OV is Willesden Junction to London, which is Euston

Map ZZ is Watford Junction to London, which is Euston, plus Reading - London, which is rather slapdash to be frank, since the previous routeing point is Taunton, so you could IMO pick any route between Taunton and Reading and also any route between Reading and London, such as Reading - Southampton - Brighton - London.


Incidentally I am not clear where in the routeing guide it states that you may not continue beyond the final routeing point. E.g., on a ticket to Birmingham, coming from the south, going through Birmingham on to Tamworth, and then back via Lichfield.

 

[bb21]

Yes I guess that is actually true.

The blob means you can travel between any arbitrary stations in the group, including doubling back for routeing purposes.

Ditto for Micklefield.

Yes, I agree, although in most cases there aren't many options.

On maps CT, LP, OV, SV and ZZ, London is not specifically identified.

Yes, but none of these are relevant to the case in question. I agree that if one of these maps is involved then there is probably more flexibility in terms of interpretation regarding the London "blob".

Incidentally I am not clear where in the routeing guide it states that you may not continue beyond the final routeing point. E.g., on a ticket to Birmingham, coming from the south, going through Birmingham on to Tamworth, and then back via Lichfield.

Didn't we have a similar discussion regarding Bristol a few weeks back?

 

[soil]

Didn't we have a similar discussion regarding Bristol a few weeks back?

We did, though in that case the ticket was issued specifically to Bristol Parkway and travel was via Temple Meads.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have discovered that the First Capital Connect service from Horley/Three bridges to Farringdon is frequently late and sometimes cancelled.

Do any First Capital Connect services call at Horley?

 

[johnnycache]

No FCC trains call at Horley
A few call at Redhill

 

[adamafc]

Do any First Capital Connect services call at Horley?

No, I'd have to change to a FCC service at either Gatwick Airport or East Croydon.

Thanks again for all the replies. I have to admit, I'm a little lost with all the technicalities/train lingo. Would somebody be kind enough to post a brief summary, or in short, an answer to the question: will my train ticket to Farringdon allow me access to either (or both) London Bridge or London Victoria stations?

Many Thanks

Adam

 

[DavyCrocket]

London Bridge yes.

My Sussex to London Victoria ticket is valid to London Bridge/Waterloo as it is any permitted route.

 

[wellhouse]

No, I'd have to change to a FCC service at either Gatwick Airport or East Croydon.

Thanks again for all the replies. I have to admit, I'm a little lost with all the technicalities/train lingo. Would somebody be kind enough to post a brief summary, or in short, an answer to the question: will my train ticket to Farringdon allow me access to either (or both) London Bridge or London Victoria stations?

Many Thanks

Adam

Summary

London Bridge - OK
Victoria - May be OK on a technicality, but unlikely to be accepted.

Browsing here you find discussions worthy of any Philosophy Faculty.

The Rules that determine ticket validity are often ambiguous and sufficiently complex to create anomalies and alternative interpretations, so there is not always one right answer.

Some enjoy testing the limits, but I suspect you are more interested in a trouble-free commute.

While you may be entitled to travel to or from Victoria, it is certain that most staff will treat you as not holding a valid ticket, and it would be wise to seek clarification in writing from Southern before attempting to use this route.

A Travelcard is valid via Victoria, but is significantly more expensive.

There is a range of Season Ticket fares between your chosen stations and London (London Terminals/Farringdon/Travelcard), so be careful to get the correct one; passengers can be sold the cheapest option without confirming it is appropriate.

In your case, make sure that your ticket is valid on both Southern and FCC (a cheaper FCC only Travelcard from Gatwick Airport or Three Bridges, for example, would not allow you to travel using Southern services at Horley)

 

[johnnycache]

i work for Southern

If you buy the £62.50 per week ticket from Gatwick Airport to Farringdon you can definitely do all the following:

1) travel to Gatwick Airport on Southern and then to Farringdon on FCC
2) travel to Gatwick Airport on Southern and then to London Bridge on Southern or FCC
3) travel directly to London Bridge on Southern from Horley
4) travel to East Croydon on Southern and then to Farringdon on FCC

or any permutations of the above

You can definitely travel to and from London Bridge although your ticket is not valid on the Underground between there and Farringdon

You can break your journey/start or finish your journey at Blackfriars or City Thameslink

You can travel to Waterloo via Clapham Junction or Waterloo East via London Bridge although your ticket may not operate the barriers and you may need to have a conversation with the staff

Victoria is not as clear so best to avoid it

I hope that helps!