Trains Stopping away from Platform Entrances

[SWT_USER]

yes they are, that is just the drivers being nice to the passengers, not that any of them would appreciate it of course! :roll:

Not having a go, just curious! Although if they could let me know before they do it so I can position myself in the right part of the train...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Three northern examples:

Kidsgrove: Crewe-Stoke trains stop well back from the actual junction/footbridge/signal etc.
Alsager: Stoke-Crewe trains stop well back from the canopy/level crossing/signal and crawl at walking pace into the platform.
Both these are relatively recent changes, and must be to do with the perceived risk of overruns.
Passengers are often baffled.

At Chester P3 (main westbound platform) everything pulls right down the very long platform, regardless of length.
This leaves the crowd of intending passengers waiting near the main entrance shuffling along to board, so that the east end of the train is always overcrowded.
It also increases dwell times, waiting for the last passenger to make it to the train (often a 2-car DMU).
This seems to be because of the split platform, so that another train can pull into the eastern half if necessary.

 

[snail]

Wasn't there a plan for trains at Bolton to stop closer to the footbridge to save passengers a long walk? I was there the other day and nothing appeared to have changed. Getting from a Clitheroe train to a Preston train is a heck of a walk.

 

[FGW_DID]

Tell you what, why don't we just get NR to lay tracks right to your front door but then again that means you would have to walk (heaven forbid) from your bedroom to the door.

Alternatively everybody can crowd by the entrance, when the train arrives the first car can pull up alongside, when that's full, the train can pull forward so the second car is next to the entrance and so on until every car is full and nobody has had to walk down the platform!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This is the weighed up. As drivers on here have said, we would prefer to stop everything in the same place. Customer services however would live to stop every single formation at a different place. They compromise and if need be make changes.

Recently in the great northern route they re did a number if stop marks after a huge surge in stop short incidents. For example, Hadley wood down slow used to have a 3,4,6&8. After a number of stop shorts they reduced it to 4&8 only which didn't go down well as now neither a 3 or 6 car stop under the canopy (and the majority of services are 3 or 6 cars.

While I understand the consideration of wanting to avoid stopping short, I guess an obvious question is, has any work been done on how to reduce the frequency of such incidents without inconveniencing passengers? (I'm not trying to be nasty, trying to understand the situation better). One question that strikes me is: Are those incidents caused on occasions by drivers simply forgetting how long the train they are driving is (which I'm guessing for multiple units would be easy to do given you can't see the whole train from the cabin), and if so would better indicators in the cabin to show that information work?

 

[pendolino]

While I understand the consideration of wanting to avoid stopping short, I guess an obvious question is, has any work been done on how to reduce the frequency of such incidents without inconveniencing passengers? (I'm not trying to be nasty, trying to understand the situation better). One question that strikes me is: Are those incidents caused on occasions by drivers simply forgetting how long the train they are driving is (which I'm guessing for multiple units would be easy to do given you can't see the whole train from the cabin), and if so would better indicators in the cabin to show that information work?

Yes, it's forgetting how long the train is especially soon after making an attachment, or more likely, becoming momentarily distracted or absent minded.

There are a number of tools available to help prevent stop shorts: formation reminders (a little flip book with all the possible train lengths in it), writing the train length on the diagram, commentary driving, and various initiatives like the recent STAR campaign on Southern aimed at reducing stop shorts but more so wrong side door releases (STAR being 'Stop Think Assess Release'). STAR has been very successful: relevant incidents down by ~60% since it was introduced.

And yes there has been some consolidation/rationalisation of stop marks, but there will never be a time when only S car marks exist.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Punters can walk its not exactly an extreme distance most regular travellers know how many carriages the train is and wait accordingly in the right place for there carriage. They would adjust quite quickly if S car marks were introduced across the network. And as a commuter (bletchley to Victoria) I wouldn't find the change at all difficult

Sure, people *can* walk, but that's not really the point. In most businesses, you make your money by providing services that help your customers in some way. And on the whole, any ethical business that cares about its customers will do everything it reasonably can to provide as good a service is it can. There's no reason for railways to be any exception to this. A supermarket would (hopefully) not carelessly put its most popular goods on the top shelves on the basis that 'customers *can* reach up to get them. As a computer programmer I personally go to some effort to make the programs I write easy to use, even though I could, for somewhat less effort, produce something that people *could* still use. Similarly it's not unreasonable to expect that a train company would make some effort to have its trains stop in the location that is most convenient for its customers.
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I presonally would go for s car boards at everystop

*every* stop? Even at - say - the many stations in SE England that have platforms built for 12 car trains but often serve 4-car trains at off-peak times. That would mean you'd be expecting people who've just arrived on the platform to walk 8 carriage lengths to reach their train on occasions. That's not a trivial walk, especially when non-regulars who don't know where the train is going to stop would only realize they have to walk (run) that distance *after* the train has pulled in! (I doubt that would help schedules very much)

 

[Muzer]

What's weirder is when they put a lot of signs up all in one place e.g. at Altrincham platform 3 they've got 2, 3, 4 and 6 car stop boards all in the same place. And there haven't been any 3 car working since First North Western days so it's really a redundant sign.

I was at Romsey today, and I noticed that (it was something like this), the 3 car stop was an old NSE sign, the 4-5 car stop was a new national rail blue type one, and the 6 car stop was black and barely readable (WTF? What had HAPPENED to it? It looked like it had been in a fire!)

 

[455driver]

We have a 9hr 20 duty at our place which starts with 12 coaches then its 4,12,8,PNB,5,12 and then 8 to finish with. Spot the problem with any of that?

 

[Dieseldriver]

But haven't yours got that pretty computer screen to tell you how many coaches you have on?....
Great story I was told, won't name names or locations. Many years ago in loco hauled days a driver and secondman booked on same job Monday to Friday, part of which included working a rush hour 5 coach train. On the Monday, they arrived at a large station with a long platform, passengers all stood waiting where the 5 coach train should stop, driver rolls straight past them and stops at the far end of the platform then looks out the window to watch them running to the train. Same again on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. By the time Friday came around the passengers had got wise to this so waited for the train right at the far end of the platform. Driver pulls in and stops perfectly at the 5 car mark!... Apparently he cracked a little smile as the passengers run down the length of the platform towards the train...

 

[Mintona]

Although it would be a very extreme example, I think most companies would prefer slightly inconvenienced passengers to injured passengers who open the door without realising they aren't next to a platform and fall out of the train due to the driver making an error.

 

[jon0844]

At Hatfield, I just wish they'd install cameras like platforms 1 and 2 so drivers could properly see and stop as they did before.

It is a very long walk that's mildly annoying for me but actually very awkward for those who might struggle to walk easily. They can take some time to walk 5 carriage lengths (over 100 metres) to get to the end of a 3 car train.

At the very least they might have been able to do a 3/6 car stop board two cars behind the 4/8 one - the driver surely knowing what stock s/he is driving. That would help a little bit for some services.

 

[bnm]

Slough on the Down Fast is another. Waited in the middle with everyone else for a 2 car 165 coming in on the Oxford Fast only for it to stop down the platform next to the Windsor Bay unit. I then note the 2 car stop board is with the other car markers (3, 4 and 6 I believe)

It is indeed.

Not to forget '5'. I took a photo last year of the stop marker on the Slough Platform 2 down main:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bnm/Prize%20Quiz%2025-08-2012/Quiz1.jpg

 

[A-driver]

At Hatfield, I just wish they'd install cameras like platforms 1 and 2 so drivers could properly see and stop as they did before.

It is a very long walk that's mildly annoying for me but actually very awkward for those who might struggle to walk easily. They can take some time to walk 5 carriage lengths (over 100 metres) to get to the end of a 3 car train.

At the very least they might have been able to do a 3/6 car stop board two cars behind the 4/8 one - the driver surely knowing what stock s/he is driving. That would help a little bit for some services.

As I said, Hatfield was changed from a 4&8 car stop to an s car due to a huge number if incidents there which no one could explain the reasons behind.

A lot of work is done to prevent stop shorts as has been said but the problem is that more and more TOCs are adding more varied formations throughout the day.

Stop shorts sound like a stupid thing to do, I mean how hard can it be to remember you have 8 coaches on? But the problem really lies in the fact that you can drive all stations welwyn to moorgate and back in a 3 car twice on Monday and then twice on Tuesday stopping halfway down the platform and then Tuesday evening run a 6 car. You leave the first station telling yourself 6 cars on, you can stick a huge sticker on the windscreen, write it on your diagram etc but what tends to happen is half a dozen stations later the driver (still telling themselves they have 6 on) gets distracted for a split second, puts the brake in and aims for the 3 car monitors, stops and opens doors. I can say from experience (unfortunately) that you know exactly what you have done the second you press those door release buttons.

 

[jon0844]

I accept the reason but what about the idea of two boards, so 6 car trains stop two carriages or so further back. Then a 3 car train would only be 3 cars down instead of 5. I bet you'd never forget what train you're driving (actually don't some boards relate to the train class?).

People could still stand in one area where they'd always be by at least one set of doors no matter what! Of course the classic way to be caught out is when a train is moved to the fast line and stops further back!

However it isn't a massive problem and there are more things to worry about. At least Hatfield is getting lifts soon, which is a bigger deal - and at least all trains now stop at the S stop so people will be used to it (or see the signs that say they stop at the end). For quite some time a lot of drivers chose to stop where they always did, even with no stop boards or even a mirror!

 

[westcoaster]

*every* stop? Even at - say - the many stations in SE England that have platforms built for 12 car trains but often serve 4-car trains at off-peak times. That would mean you'd be expecting people who've just arrived on the platform to walk 8 carriage lengths to reach their train on occasions. That's not a trivial walk, especially when non-regulars who don't know where the train is going to stop would only realize they have to walk (run) that distance *after* the train has pulled in! (I doubt that would help schedules very much)

No different from an airport, someone's said about Bromley south boards being moved in the down direction, I believe this was more to do with the platform bods standing next to the wrong stop board and drivers just heading and stopping next to them instead of the correct stop point, the amount of times I've come in there with an 8 car and the dispatcher is standing at the 4 car boars, it so easy to stop short in the end I decided to just ignore them and focus on the correct stopping point. ( ill point out the above is my personal view and not that of anyone else or proven fact.)

 

[455driver]

But haven't yours got that pretty computer screen to tell you how many coaches you have on?....

But we are not allowed to look at the computer screen when driving as it would be classed as "unauthorised electronic equipment" and so be a distraction!

(wheres the "tongue sticking out" smillie when you want one)

 

[tsr]

...(actually don't some boards relate to the train class?)...

Yes - I've seen these.

 

[A-driver]

Yes - I've seen these.

Boards relating to train class are generally for DOO equipment issues. I believe honour oak park and Sydenham have seperate 378 stop boards as they have onboard DOO equipment so don't need to line up with the mirrors like southerns trains do (I know 377s have onboard CCTV aswell but southern didn't like the idea of a seperate 4car 377 stopping point-again would add to even more stop shorts).

 

[Statto]

Am I the only one that turns up at a station a few minutes before the train is due and walks to a quieter spot, further down the platform, to avoid the rush/crush and actually get on the train quicker, thus being more likely to get a seat or decent standing spot??

I do that as well. On my local line i try & get in the carriage that stops nearest the exit from the platform at the station i a'm going to.

 

[317666]

The 2 and 3 car markers on Platform 3b at Chester are a fair way along the platform. I noticed this before my train arrived and managed to get on first, so had a table to myself on the right-hand side, great view of the coast

Whereas everyone else ran up as the train pulled in and piled into the rear coach which was full and standing...

 

[jopsuk]

*every* stop? Even at - say - the many stations in SE England that have platforms built for 12 car trains but often serve 4-car trains at off-peak times. That would mean you'd be expecting people who've just arrived on the platform to walk 8 carriage lengths to reach their train on occasions. That's not a trivial walk, especially when non-regulars who don't know where the train is going to stop would only realize they have to walk (run) that distance *after* the train has pulled in! (I doubt that would help schedules very much)

At Cambridge, the 2 and three carriage Cross Country services to Stansted tend to used platform 8 these days. To access platform 8 from the entrance, you walk:
half the length of the platform 1/4 scissors crossover and some way along platform 4 (maybe a total of four car lengths?)
Up the stairs (a further horizontal car length?)
Across a bridge approximately four tracks wide
back down the stairs- you're now at where the rear of the eighth carriage of a 12 car train would be. You're going to the airport and have luggage. Your train is a long way beyond the end of the canopy. Have fun!

(in reality, your train is parked at the stairs)

 

[Mojo]

Bristol Temple Meads is quite annoying too, trains often stop quite a far way down the platform away from the stairs, particularly those on the even numbered platforms. I think this is because of the location of the platform demarcation markers (see here) although often the rear of the trains will stop a fair way in advance of this.

 

[fusionblue]

(see here).

That site is very useful to at least understand some things. Never knew about it. Thanks for linking to that!

 

[TDK]

Sure, people *can* walk, but that's not really the point. In most businesses, you make your money by providing services that help your customers in some way. And on the whole, any ethical business that cares about its customers will do everything it reasonably can to provide as good a service is it can. There's no reason for railways to be any exception to this.

Dissagree - as I earlier quoted the stop marks are there to aid safety on dispatch and signal sighting and this is a safety issue so this comment of yours in fact is being met by the train companies/infrastructure companies ensuring the platform passenger interface and also inciident mitigation is taken into account. It aint no good stopping where the driver or guard cannot see the signal or where the guard cannot see the full length of the train. Railways are in fact more safety concious than most other industries especially places like Tesco and Asda.
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The 2 and 3 car markers on Platform 3b at Chester are a fair way along the platform. I noticed this before my train arrived and managed to get on first, so had a table to myself on the right-hand side, great view of the coast

Whereas everyone else ran up as the train pulled in and piled into the rear coach which was full and standing...

The reason for this being is that a train can enter platform 3A from the East, it is called progress and capacity management I believe. The train in advance needs to be clear of the overlap from the intermediate signal for the signaller to clear a train into 3A.
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Boards relating to train class are generally for DOO equipment issues. I believe honour oak park and Sydenham have seperate 378 stop boards as they have onboard DOO equipment so don't need to line up with the mirrors like southerns trains do (I know 377s have onboard CCTV aswell but southern didn't like the idea of a seperate 4car 377 stopping point-again would add to even more stop shorts).

There is a 4-car board at Smethwick Galton Bridge on the down that is for LM trains only and a 4 car 158 will not fit if stopped at this board so a driver must stop in advance of the 4-car board to accomodate the platform. Obviously the station is managed by LM and they don't run 158's.
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Bristol Temple Meads is quite annoying too, trains often stop quite a far way down the platform away from the stairs, particularly those on the even numbered platforms. I think this is because of the location of the platform demarcation markers (see here) although often the rear of the trains will stop a fair way in advance of this.

That signal you refer to (if it is still there) is in fact a stop signal and if a driver passes it he will have had a SPAD.

 

[Mojo]

That signal you refer to (if it is still there) is in fact a stop signal and if a driver passes it he will have had a SPAD.

I was more referring to where trains are signalled into the even numbered platform but coming from the Bath/Filton end. Trains tend to pull up quite a way along the platform which is a walk back, and they do pass this sign, because they are signalled to the even platform.

 

[jopsuk]

That site is very useful to at least understand some things. Never knew about it. Thanks for linking to that!

It's a fascinating resource- the guy that runs it posts on here (as Railsigns, funnily enough).

 

[Railsigns]

It's a fascinating resource- the guy that runs it posts on here (as Railsigns, funnily enough).

Hello!

 

[TDK]

I was more referring to where trains are signalled into the even numbered platform but coming from the Bath/Filton end. Trains tend to pull up quite a way along the platform which is a walk back, and they do pass this sign, because they are signalled to the even platform.

I used to sign temple meads but many moons ago. I think if the signal is illuminated then the driver can pass it up to the next stop mark and this may be done to allow a train in behind. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[PHILIPE]

Bristol Temple Meads is quite annoying too, trains often stop quite a far way down the platform away from the stairs, particularly those on the even numbered platforms. I think this is because of the location of the platform demarcation markers (see here) although often the rear of the trains will stop a fair way in advance of this.

At Bristol Temple Meads, as you agree, the odd numbered platforms are at the East End and the even numbered at the West End. They are separated by an indicator known as a "St Andrews Cross" which cannot be passed without authority. If a train runs down to the West End away from the station entrance it is then possible for other movements to take place the East End which is essential wwith the volume of trains using the station. Permissible working is also in place at the location.