Splitting at Burton-on-Trent without stopping there

[tannedfrog]

Under condition 19c, would it be OK to use a train that does not stop at Burton-on-Trent, in the following combination?

Clapham Junction to Euston, Travelcard season zones 1-2
Euston to Tamworth, Great Escape
Tamworth to Burton-on-Trent, Off Peak Single
Burton-on-Trent to Derby, Derbyshire Wayfarer.

(The Derbyshire Wayfarer is more expensive than the single ticket but allows bus travel etc.)
Many thanks

 

[maniacmartin]

That would indeed be permitted if all tickets are governed by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Someone else will be able to say if they are - specifically the Great Escape I do not know much about

 

[yorkie]

There is insufficient information in your post.

The rule is that one ticket is season and the others are not.

So, I will make the assumption that your Zone 1-2 Travelcard is a Season, and if so, then yes Condition 19(c) is satisfied.

 

[34D]

Under condition 19c, would it be OK to use a train that does not stop at Burton-on-Trent, in the following combination?

Clapham Junction to Euston, Travelcard zones 1-2
Euston to Tamworth, Great Escape
Tamworth to Burton-on-Trent, Off Peak Single
Burton-on-Trent to Derby, Derbyshire Wayfarer.

(The Derbyshire Wayfarer is more expensive than the single ticket but allows bus travel etc.)
Many thanks

Yes valid but expect hassle (assuming the travelcard is a season, and assuming this is a continuous journey from Clapham Junction to Derby).

 

[tony_mac]

but don't expect it to be automatically accepted.

 

[tannedfrog]

There is insufficient information in your post.

The rule is that one ticket is season and the others are not.

So, I will make the assumption that your Zone 1-2 Travelcard is a Season, and if so, then yes Condition 19(c) is satisfied.

Sorry, yes Travelcard season. Corrected accordingly

 

[yorkie]

Some XC guards are unfamiliar with the wording of 19(c) and someone has written to XC about this matter, but XC are yet to respond. (Anyone know if XC have a franchise commitment to respond within a certain period of time? I know EC have a 10 day limit...)

 

[ainsworth74]

(Anyone know if XC have a franchise commitment to respond within a certain period of time? I know EC have a 10 day limit...)

I did a cursory examination of their franchise agreement and couldn't find anything.

To the OP, I also agree with the above that your ticket is definitely valid but that you should be advised that you may not have a trouble free journey. I would advise printing out Condition 19 from the NRCoC to help in any conversation you have with staff.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Some XC guards are unfamiliar with the wording of 19(c) and someone has written to XC about this matter, but XC are yet to respond. (Anyone know if XC have a franchise commitment to respond within a certain period of time? I know EC have a 10 day limit...)

Would it be feasible to assume that EC have a 10 day response in the franchise agreement that all operators would be the same

 

[OwlMan]

This Ranger ticket may be used in combination with another ticket for a journey commencing outside the validity area. However, the Ranger must be valid at the time the train being used makes its first stop inside the area of validity.

With the above condition now included in The Manual I see no reason why it would not be valid even if you do not hold a season ticket.

Peter

 

[hairyhandedfool]

With the above condition now included in The Manual I see no reason why it would not be valid even if you do not hold a season ticket.

Peter

That 'condition' doesn't alter NRCoC condition 19:

• Part a - Both tickets must be zonal (the ticket into Burton is not zonal).
• Part b - The train stops were the tickets change over (according to the op the train does not stop at Burton).
• Part c - One is a season ticket and the other(s) is/are not (applies in the case of the op using their season ticket, but not if they don't)

 

[WCML]

There's 2tph which run Tamworth to Derby calling at Burton, why not just use one of those instead?

 

[Mr Spock]

There's 2tph which run Tamworth to Derby calling at Burton, why not just use one of those instead?

There is usually a wait of 25 mins for those trains (arrive at xx.11, depart at xx.36) but on the even hours there is a Voyager at xx.18 which is first stop Derby so it depends what time you arrive at Tamworth.

 

[yorkie]

There's 2tph which run Tamworth to Derby calling at Burton, why not just use one of those instead?

No need. The tickets are valid without any requirement for the train to call.

 

[jb]

At the risk of being difficult (as if... ), and in light of discussions on other topics, doesn't the "common-sense" interpretation and "spirit" of 19(c) concern the point at which a particular split happens?

That is, what's the "common-sense" relevance of using a season at a completely different split point on the same journey?

 

[yorkie]

jb, I do not understand your post, sorry.

The rule of Condition 19c is simple, in this case we have 4 tickets and one is a Season, so: you may use [four] tickets for one journey if one is a Season and the others are not.

So Condition 19 is satisfied.

There is no need to complicate matters by talking about "split points" - you can use any number of tickets, as long as one is a Season, it's as simple as that.

 

[jb]

jb, I do not understand your post, sorry.

The rule of Condition 19c is simple, in this case we have 4 tickets and one is a Season, so: you may use [four] tickets for one journey if one is a Season and the others are not.

So Condition 19 is satisfied.

There is no need to complicate matters by talking about "split points" - you can use any number of tickets, as long as one is a Season, it's as simple as that.

Disingenuousness does you no favours (the rules of Advance tickets are also simple and unambiguous, and I'd be genuinely astonished if you didn't understand my point perfectly well, but I will stray off-topic no longer). Congrats on your impending 20k post milestone by the way.

 

[tony_mac]

At the risk of being difficult (as if... ), and in light of discussions on other topics, doesn't the "common-sense" interpretation and "spirit" of 19(c) concern the point at which a particular split happens?

That is, what's the "common-sense" relevance of using a season at a completely different split point on the same journey?

Personally, I don't think there is any - I think it's probably an unintended consequence of some sloppy wording.

However, I think the wording, as it is, does have an unambiguous meaning and people should reasonably be able to take it at face value. The meaning has even been specifically clarified in the past.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

19b and 19c are reasonably worded for common sense to be used, but 19a is a different matter. They can only both be zonal if you have two tickets, three or more would make it impossible for them both to be zonal.

 

[ffm]

Does the use of a season for part of the journey therefore over ride 19 (b)?

 

[bb21]

Does the use of a season for part of the journey therefore over ride 19 (b)?

It depends on what your definition of "journey" is.

In the absence of anything to suggest the contrary, I am inclined to agree with the view that the passenger is entitled to claim his journey in this case is Clapham Junction to Derby, therefore Condition 19(c) is satisfied, despite the leg between Tamworth and Derby going nowhere near the portion for which the season ticket is held.

Only one of 19(b) and 19(c) need to be satisfied and there is no question as to whether one overwriting the other.

However in reality anyone doing such a journey should be prepared to be challenged, as evidence suggests that XC have a different take on the matter.

 

[jb]

It depends on what your definition of "journey" is.

In the absence of anything to suggest the contrary, I am inclined to agree with the view that the passenger is entitled to claim his journey in this case is Clapham Junction to Derby, therefore Condition 19(c) is satisfied, despite the leg between Tamworth and Derby going nowhere near the portion for which the season ticket is held..

Oh, there's surely no inclining to be done, it's satisfied all right. That it is satisfied defies common sense, but that particular commodity is played fast and loose with around here.

 

[tannedfrog]

Thanks for your answers. Does it change anything if part or all of the journey using the season ticket, was made using the Underground? Eg from Balham to Euston

 

[bb21]

Do you have a Travelcard?

It shouldn't matter as a season ticket is a season ticket. TfL products are still treated as season tickets under Condition 19(c) as they are not classed as a PTE.

 

[tannedfrog]

Do you have a Travelcard?

It shouldn't matter as a season ticket is a season ticket. TfL products are still treated as season tickets under Condition 19(c) as they are not classed as a PTE.

Yes, a Travelcard. But I would have thought that it is not about the possession of the season ticket, but whether it has been used for part of the journey, and whether an Underground journey counts as part of a National Rail journey for the purposes of condition 19.

 

[bb21]

Yes, a Travelcard. But I would have thought that it is not about the possession of the season ticket, but whether it has been used for part of the journey, and whether an Underground journey counts as part of a National Rail journey for the purposes of condition 19.

If your journey is by using a National Rail train to Victoria, then a cross-London transfer to Euston, it would be a through journey on National Rail.

It is one of those scenarios where the exact journey you made will probably not make much difference.