BBC Documentary 'The Railways'

[RPM]

I quite agree ticket clerks simply can't start going into the multitude of split ticket combinations and I am also aware that they are not obliged to do so and rightly so. However I did think it wouldn't have killed the clerk in question to at least suggest that buying two singles might be cheaper if the return journey would qualify for a saver. Not complicated to work that out and if the clerk is under severe time pressure he could have sold the outward single only and told the customer to buy the other bit on the day. Might just have been enough to make the passenger come back another day rather than convincing him never to use the railway again. However, it was severely edited so we don't actually know how it was resolved.

 

[A-driver]

I quite agree ticket clerks simply can't start going into the multitude of split ticket combinations and I am also aware that they are not obliged to do so and rightly so. However I did think it wouldn't have killed the clerk in question to at least suggest that buying two singles might be cheaper if the return journey would qualify for a saver. Not complicated to work that out and if the clerk is under severe time pressure he could have sold the outward single only and told the customer to buy the other bit on the day. Might just have been enough to make the passenger come back another day rather than convincing him never to use the railway again. However, it was severely edited so we don't actually know how it was resolved.

As you say it was edited so in fairness the ticket man may have suggested exactly what you have just said.

 

[Clip]

Just watched it and feel sorry for the crying young lady who forgot there ticket.

Ahh most people do when the waterworks start and peopl eup and down the country who watched it would wonder why the ticket clerk was being so heartless the big brute to a poor young lady obviously in distress. Especially with the cameras there too! win win!!

Of course we have no idea if her mate was stood outside with her ticket waiting for her so they could both get home cheaply and it was her who won the toss to go inside because she can cry on cue much easier then her mate.

 

[A-driver]

I have no sympathy with those who forget tickets to be honest-I have done it before and deserved to pay again for my travel-I didn't feel hard done by by the railway but by the fact I had been stupid enough to leave home without the train tickets I had ordered!

Try turning up at an airport for example for a very important wedding, funeral, holiday, business trip etc and find on arrival you have forgotten your passport. See how much sympathy the airport staff give you then.

Or go to tesco to do the weekly shop and get to the checkout to find you forgot your wallet. See what sympathy tesco staff give you.

Why should the railway be going out of its way to replace people's tickets who have simply forgotten to take the most important thing you need for a train trip?!

Sort your act out and organise your life a bit better then you won't be in that position! When leaving home check...suitcase, wallet, phone, keys, train tickets.

Anyway, rant over. (Probably why I don't work in a customer service job really!)

 

[martybabes]

Not really. Passenger comes up to the window and asks for a certain ticket from point A to point B then that is what they will get sold. It is not the job of the ticket clerk to sit there working out all different routes and splitting possibilities.


You may not like it but I am not having ever increasing queues at my stations incconveniencing other travellers.

In relation to the first part, do you work as a ticket sales person or as a customer service person? I can see there will be a very big difference in the provision of your "end product" if you are in one area as opposed to the other!

And in relation to your second part, how do you provide convenience to one customer without inconveniencing another? Are they not allowed to ask you anything other than "Please can I have a ticket to so-and-so?" Any further input from them or you must be "inconveniencing other travellers"!!!

 

[Clip]

In relation to the first part, do you work as a ticket sales person or as a customer service person? I can see there will be a very big difference in the provision of your "end product" if you are in one area as opposed to the other!

And in relation to your second part, how do you provide convenience to one customer without inconveniencing another? Are they not allowed to ask you anything other than "Please can I have a ticket to so-and-so?" Any further input from them or you must be "inconveniencing other travellers"!!!

I dont understand your first part nor why you bolded the word 'window' maybe you can explain a bit clearer for me as Im not well so its all a blur.


I didnt say they were not allowed to ask my staff anything other than a ticket from so and so. In fact if you had read my post properly I actually stated that you should do your research for whatever complicated ticket(s) and journey you want then come to the window and ask my staff.

Expecting my staff to try and work out every concievable journey and split ticketing arangement would take up lots of time and effort as for some journies there are many. This in turn then makes the passengers behind them wait a lot longer.

If you want a specified product then why not ask for that rather than just asking from A to B?

 

[martybabes]

I emboldened "window" because, in your previous post you mentioned people coming up to the window, and I do not know if - from behind that window - you sell tickets or provide customer assistance. If it is the former, then I can understand your reluctance to entertain discussions about every possible route alternative and journey splitting but I don't think this prevents you from having a modest discourse about whether one option would find favour with your traveller than another would.

If you are in customer services, I would consider it your duty to provide just that - assistance - unless I have misunderstood what assistance actually means. You are, if that's what you do, providing a service to customers.

Should there be yet another window but this time labelled "abuse, belittling and contempt" then people queuing at that one will be in no doubt what to expect!!!

 

[RJ]

In relation to the first part, do you work as a ticket sales person or as a customer service person? I can see there will be a very big difference in the provision of your "end product" if you are in one area as opposed to the other!

And in relation to your second part, how do you provide convenience to one customer without inconveniencing another? Are they not allowed to ask you anything other than "Please can I have a ticket to so-and-so?" Any further input from them or you must be "inconveniencing other travellers"!!!

Clip is right. A clerk is tasked with selling the simplest and cheapest ticket appropriate to the journey the customer is making. This is what most normal customers want, not to be sold a ticket which may cause hassle later on.

The onus is on the customer to do their homework and ask the clerk for anything that's not the simplest and cheapest ticket.

Sometimes trying to be helpful by suggesting a cheaper ticket does more harm than good. It is therefore best for the clerk to stick to their remit.

 

[Clip]

I emboldened "window" because, in your previous post you mentioned people coming up to the window, and I do not know if - from behind that window - you sell tickets or provide customer assistance. If it is the former, then I can understand your reluctance to entertain discussions about every possible route alternative and journey splitting but I don't think this prevents you from having a modest discourse about whether one option would find favour with your traveller than another would.

If you are in customer services, I would consider it your duty to provide just that - assistance - unless I have misunderstood what assistance actually means. You are, if that's what you do, providing a service to customers.

Should there be yet another window but this time labelled "abuse, belittling and contempt" then people queuing at that one will be in no doubt what to expect!!!

They sell tickets. Which is probably why its generally called a ticket office within the wider general publics view(I add this before a pedant mentions its a booking office).

I dont sell tickets so Im not reluctant to do anything. In fact by having this very discussion with you shows that I am more than happy to entertain a discussion about what should or should not be performed by my staff.


And I am happy that my position from within the rail industry and in my experience that what the majority of passengers want is a ticket from A to B and I am happy with the fact that my staff, along with others all over the rail network are happy to do the same.

They also want that ticket sold to them quickly so they can get on the train thats just coming into the station. They do not want to be held up whilst someone who has not done their research about their journey and tickets required to take up so much time whilst the clerk hunts round everywhere on the system and finds out if they can make the journey cheaper.

I and my staff and other staff around the rail network are more than happy to supply you with your ticketing needs should you know what you want. If its a confusing and obscure RJ ticket then they will assist you, but it would then be better if you came at a quieter period during the day.

Or, you could just book the whole thing online and turn up, use the TVM and off you toddle.

 

[38Cto15E]

Some points which made me chuckle.

The look on the passengers face when told it was £301 for a ticket
"But I can fly for less than that"
"Thats your perogative sir"
Maybe he felt better after the strawberries.

The Merseyside lady who immediately after asking a question had a slurp from a giant drinks container.

The gentleman who said," I'm sure the passengers think I'm on day release from a lunatic asylum"

 

[Oswyntail]

...The onus is on the customer to do their homework and ask the clerk for anything that's not the simplest and cheapest ticket....

That depends. If, for example, the customer does not have access to the internet (it does happen), or, perhaps, could not actually understand the website (that happens too) then where do they go? Now, I have not used the desk at Kings Cross for some time, but at one stage I am sure that, in common with most other stations, it was serving a dual purpose, of selling tickets and giving information. And then where do you draw the line? If a customer asks "I need a ticket from here to there, returning tomorrow" do you simply bang out the Anytime return, or ask what time they are travelling? I would expect a competent professional to know at least the standard tickets and restrictions to the most common destinations from his station, so as to be able to offer the customer the most appropriate ticket for their journey.

 

[GodAtum]

At Victoria there are two sections, one for advanced tickets and I assume difficult questions, and other side for immediate tickets.

 

[martybabes]

Well, that's certainly cleared things up for me. I wonder if the majority of the occasional travelling public is aware that ticket offices are only intended to be for the use of the travelling public in buying a known type of ticket for use only on certain trains (and being at risk of a fate worse than death should they be on the wrong train with the wrong ticket and at the wrong time but travelling to the right destination). Discussions about anything else while at ticket offices - but only at times when it is not busy - is apparently perfectly acceptable. Presumably that also includes last night's football results.

It seems to me, Clip, that we are not too different in our views. The only major difference, as far as I can see, is that you have a much greater awareness and understanding of the organisation within which you operate while I am perfectly happy to be given the cheapest available ticket for the destination I am intending to reach. If those two attributes combine, we are not at odds with each other.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Did anyone else notice it seemed to be mainly a bit off free advertising for East Coast? Might be worth noting they're not the only TOC operating out of King's Cross.

Also, some of the abuse levelled at the staff at KGX was far too much. It's a wonder they still try and help these people. I don't expect a ticket office staff member to tell me about the variations to my ticket to make it cheaper, I just expect him to tell me the price. It costs what it costs. People forget that the main period of travel in the programme was Fridey evening peak, the most expensive time to travel by any means, so of course prices are going to be high. You wouldn't expect to walk in to Dixons to buy a TV and have them tell you "If you do this this and this, you can get it cheaper than by here". You'd have expected to look online or whatever first to find where the cheapest price is. Surely it should be the same with train tickets?!

 

[jon0844]

Did anyone else notice it seemed to be mainly a bit off free advertising for East Coast? Might be worth noting they're not the only TOC operating out of King's Cross.

They did have a bit of a dig at FCC too, namely the bit where the EC staff member was asked about his experience of using First Capital Connect to get to work.

 

[tiptoptaff]

They did have a bit of a dig at FCC too, namely the bit where the EC staff member was asked about his experience of using First Capital Connect to get to work.

Briefly, I grant you. But not to anywhere near the same extent, it was still basically an hour of promoting East Coast.

 

[Clip]

Well, that's certainly cleared things up for me. I wonder if the majority of the occasional travelling public is aware that ticket offices are only intended to be for the use of the travelling public in buying a known type of ticket for use only on certain trains (and being at risk of a fate worse than death should they be on the wrong train with the wrong ticket and at the wrong time but travelling to the right destination). Discussions about anything else while at ticket offices - but only at times when it is not busy - is apparently perfectly acceptable. Presumably that also includes last night's football results.
.

Is there some sort of point you are trying to make with your sarky response? I cant see it.

It seems to me, Clip, that we are not too different in our views. The only major difference, as far as I can see, is that you have a much greater awareness and understanding of the organisation within which you operate while I am perfectly happy to be given the cheapest available ticket for the destination I am intending to reach. If those two attributes combine, we are not at odds with each other

No, your point earlier seemed to be about the clerk not offering a combination of tickets for a passenger - thats a far apart from what I am syaing as you can get.

That depends. If, for example, the customer does not have access to the internet (it does happen), or, perhaps, could not actually understand the website (that happens too) then where do they go? .

They can go to the booking office. But they have to tell the clerk what they want which is generally a ticket from A to B. Most of those people who you mention are generally the elderly and they themselves would not be familiar with the whole splitting ticket thing or a circuitous route to get to where they are going - they want one train, maybe 2 if needs be and it has to be as direct as possible.

Now, I have not used the desk at Kings Cross for some time, but at one stage I am sure that, in common with most other stations, it was serving a dual purpose, of selling tickets and giving information. And then where do you draw the line?

And that is why they created the CIP on the concourse because the travel centre could not cope with the vast amount of people in there and people not being able to get their tickets quick enough to get to their trains. It makes sense.

If a customer asks "I need a ticket from here to there, returning tomorrow" do you simply bang out the Anytime return, or ask what time they are travelling? I would expect a competent professional to know at least the standard tickets and restrictions to the most common destinations from his station, so as to be able to offer the customer the most appropriate ticket for their journey

Most of my staff if not all, along with others do indeed ask when people are travelling if they get asked that sort of question and will sell them the appropriate ticket. That is vastly different from spending an age searching out the cheapest fares with split ticketing and routeing guides.

 

[Westboy]

Did anyone else notice it seemed to be mainly a bit off free advertising for East Coast? Might be worth noting they're not the only TOC operating out of King's Cross.

First probably told them where to go when they asked.

You don't rise to being an all-conquering intermodal behemoth by letting people with a camera and microphone poke around in the dusty corners. They will have a global corporate media/PR strategy that is watertight, and wouldn't have let the BBC in without some level of editorial control that that no filmmaker would accept.

East Coast, being the much smaller quasi-independent operator they are are perhaps a bit more naive.

 

[jon0844]

Briefly, I grant you. But not to anywhere near the same extent, it was still basically an hour of promoting East Coast.

Perhaps FCC didn't give access to its own offices and, as such, the programme makers concentrated on East Coast - which saw a promotional opportunity.

There were First Group staff members featured, but I guess the programme needed managers and the like - and they got that.

I am sure over the next few weeks we'll begin to see if there are any patterns or conspiracies - or whether it's just the best material they had, based on the days they actually filmed.

(Edit: I see that in my delayed time to reply, Westboy has summed things up pretty accurately above me!)

 

[A-driver]

They tried interviewing FCC drivers but management kicked them out the messroom-so the drivers invited them to the branch meeting instead.

 

[martybabes]

Is there some sort of point you are trying to make with your sarky response? I cant see it.

YES, there is.
And I am sorry you can't see what is obvious. It is no wonder the travelling public are disenchanted with the railways if their first point of call - the point of sale - is staffed by people who are blindly selling full price tickets knowing full well there may be better and cheaper options available for the people they are supposed to be serving.

And your responses, and regrettably those of others too, are simply rehearsing that.

So, it's not just dirty trains, late trains, busy stations, cramped passenger accommodation, no buffets and no bicycles allowed. It is also clerks who are not giving the public the level and quality of service they deserve AND are capable of giving.

 

[RJ]

Have you done the job yourself then? Ever had a customer explode with rage when a cheaper ticket or a split with identical validity is suggested?

It's easy to criticise when you can't empathise with them.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Have you done the job yourself then? Ever had a customer explode with rage when a cheaper ticket or a split with identical validity is suggested?

It's easy to criticise when you can't empathise with them.

Now thats pretty good going but thats twice today I've actually agreed with something you've said....whats going on!

 

[Clip]

Is there some sort of point you are trying to make with your sarky response? I cant see it.

YES, there is.
And I am sorry you can't see what is obvious. It is no wonder the travelling public are disenchanted with the railways if their first point of call - the point of sale - is staffed by people who are blindly selling full price tickets knowing full well there may be better and cheaper options available for the people they are supposed to be serving.

And your responses, and regrettably those of others too, are simply rehearsing that.

So, it's not just dirty trains, late trains, busy stations, cramped passenger accommodation, no buffets and no bicycles allowed. It is also clerks who are not giving the public the level and quality of service they deserve AND are capable of giving.

Oh do be quiet you're becoming tedious and tiresome now and quite frankly I'm bored of replying to you.

Ill say this one last time, if a passenger comes up to the window and asks for a ticket from a to b then they will get served the cheapest ticket that is available from point a to point b.

It really is that simple. Don't like it? Bleat to someone who cares because I'm bored of your tiresome responses now.

 

[ACE1888]

As an enthusiast, I enjoyed the programme
Look forward to the rest of the series

 

[Captain Chaos]

Is there some sort of point you are trying to make with your sarky response? I cant see it.

YES, there is.
And I am sorry you can't see what is obvious. It is no wonder the travelling public are disenchanted with the railways if their first point of call - the point of sale - is staffed by people who are blindly selling full price tickets knowing full well there may be better and cheaper options available for the people they are supposed to be serving.

And your responses, and regrettably those of others too, are simply rehearsing that.

So, it's not just dirty trains, late trains, busy stations, cramped passenger accommodation, no buffets and no bicycles allowed. It is also clerks who are not giving the public the level and quality of service they deserve AND are capable of giving.

Strange. I could of swore I offered a split ticket today from Shalford to Redhill SDR and Redhill to Croydon SDR and got told by the customer 'I want a return to Croydon. Not to Redhill' even though I tried to explain it was much cheaper.

I also tried the same again with a Blackwater to Swansea on the way back and was welcomed with open arms. The problem is that not only have you got to try and find the extra time to do this but also as highlighted above the passenger may not appreciate what you are trying to do regardless what you say.

People want things to be kept simple. That's the problem here. When you over-complicate what they are trying to do (purchase a ticket) it annoys them. It's not a case of bad customer service. It's a case of being realistic about what's possible. No-one wants to queue for 10 times longer for a ticket, miss the train they wanted to catch and get bombarded with loads of questions because they could possibly save a couple of quid by mucking about with Routes, calling points etc.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

It's not just the railways.
If you go into a large hotel and ask for a double room for the night or two, they will charge you the 'Rack rate', displayed on their reception!
Should the receptionist be trained to suggest that you to switch on your laptop and book online on their website for substainally less?
Ask for a product in a shop, the salesperson will sell it to you and not say there is a sale the next day! Or a similar product that is cheaper!
I have seen a travel centre suggest a split!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So, it's not just dirty trains, late trains, busy stations, cramped passenger accommodation, no buffets and no bicycles allowed. It is also clerks who are not giving the public the level and quality of service they deserve AND are capable of giving.

How long would you be willing to wait in a queue for a clerk to serve you? 5 mins? 10 mins? 20 mins?

I recently planned to make a journey from London to Manchester on the 2200 from Euston, the train stops at Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford and Crewe on it's way to Manchester. I had to make a logic chart to find the cheapest splits and they were basically useless on every other train within an hour of that one, care to guess how long it took?

Now take your guess and multiply it by the number of people in the queue at Kings Cross on a Friday evening and divide it by the number of clerks on duty at that time and you have a rough idea of how long you will be in the queue for (double it for returns - though it will always be more because no-one ever knows exactly when they are coming back....).

If you are happy with that queuing time, please feel free to argue against those who think ticket office queues are already too long.

Incidentally, if you think you would be waiting less than half an hour, you are way out.....

 

[Cliveblackpool]

People want things to be kept simple. That's the problem here. When you over-complicate what they are trying to do (purchase a ticket) it annoys them. It's not a case of bad customer service. It's a case of being realistic about what's possible. No-one wants to queue for 10 times longer for a ticket, miss the train they wanted to catch and get bombarded with loads of questions because they could possibly save a couple of quid by mucking about with Routes, calling points etc.

Very true, and the customer might take a different train, and it may then not be valid!

 

[martybabes]

Don't like it? Bleat to someone who cares because I'm bored of your tiresome responses now

And I'll add that to the list too.