kids, northern rail, police

[pomme]

A few weeks ago my 2 DS were found to be travelling without a valid ticket. they were on the way to school, boarded the train at Broadbottom station via the unmaned entrance, they were late and there were lots of snow. Not an excuse but mitigating circumstances. With cash in hand £1 travelling 3 stops to school the onboard guard never got to them but the police did when they got off the train.

The police have apparently been here 3 times, I've not been in, intimidated and accused my sons of lying (about me not being in), the day we arranged for them to come when I would be in they didn't! Apparently they will come and discuss this here with me and arrange a further discussion at the police station in Manchester.

Is this not excessive?

They were not fare evading, they had the money in their hand, I always tell them this. It is quicker for us to use the disabled/side entrance, which bypasses the ticket office, and I do so myself when I'm running late, however, there is always a conductor walking up and down as there are a few unticket stops on this route. Quite often the ticketman from the station is cleaning/on the phone/not available and he waves you on and shouts "go to the train and buy on there" so I've always accepted this practice as ok, to use the other entrance and buy on the train. Last week he was on the phone when I went to buy a ticket, also I was late and apologised for not getting my ticket - the guard on board said "no problem love dont worry".

However, I know at peak time the school kids don't always get stopped.

I know it's just a telling off as there were a number of school kids who have already been dealt with I'm just shocked at the attitude of the police and treating my kids like criminals - telling them they are being nice coming to the house as they could go to school and really embarrass them but don't appreciate me not being in (are you sure she's not in a bit??) as it's a 40 min journey and we have to keep coming out from Manchester! First time they came out it was my 14 year old who was in and they didn't believe he was home alone, they told him - no you're not who is upstairs?? err that was me looking out the window!!

They are coming back tonight, under strict instructions from my son to be here between 7 and half past due to his football training and man u playing football. Watch this space, snow is predicted and we always get snowed in!!

Any advice what would happen next month when one is 16 years old?

If you've read this far, thank you :roll:

 

[Chapeltom]

I'm not quite sure if your post is asking for advice or is just a general rant. But...

The law is you MUST buy your ticket at the first available opportunity. Unfortunately bypassing an open ticket office and expecting to pay on board is still classed as fare evasion. Northern have been coming down hard on people who simply expect to pay on board when they are passing facilities to buy a ticket, it doesn't matter the age of those concerned, the law applies to everyone.

 

[pomme]

I'm not quite sure if your post is asking for advice or is just a general rant. But...

The law is you MUST buy your ticket at the first available opportunity. Unfortunately bypassing an open ticket office and expecting to pay on board is still classed as fare evasion. Northern have been coming down hard on people who simply expect to pay on board when they are passing facilities to buy a ticket, it doesn't matter the age of those concerned, the law applies to everyone.

thanks, it was a bit of a rant! As no action has been taken I presumed it was because they were minors. And it would be different at aged 16.

Having been reading through posts I can see NR have been clamping down, this is shown at stations as well, however, they ought to tell the people working at Broadbottom station as they are all very lapsed about pre-buying your ticket and tell you it's ok to buy on the train, so conflicting advice is given. He's just rang actually ticket machine is broke today

 

[island]

Northern are really clamping down lately and they have been handing out £80 failure to pay notices a lot too. Whether we like it or not, there is and has for quite some time been a requirement to pay before you board, and I am sure your kids (not sure what "DS" stands for, is that a Mumsnet thing?) now realise they need to leave enough time to get a ticket at the station in the future.

 

[Chapeltom]

I think we'd all agree there needs to be consistency. There simply isn't any, if ticket offices are seriously saying you can buy on board then that isn't right. The Hadfield Line is one that seems to crop up a lot on here, because of the high rate of fare evasion and I think its one Northern are trying to get under control. So its interesting that Broadbottom can say its fine to pay on board, with the trains used (323s) being so long, and often packed, it can take guards a while to get out the first carriage and as a result if people haven't bought before boarding usually get away with it if they are only making short hops.

Another example of inconsistency is the quality of ticket inspections: at Manchester Picc and Liverpool Lime St we've had people come on here asking for advice as they've been caught without a valid ticket at these stations. Yet sometimes the "gate-lines" at these stations don't even bother looking at the tickets! I don't think I've ever had my ticket properly inspected at Lime St, Manchester Picc checks have got better mind.

The inconsistencies on Northern's network frustrate everyone.

 

[W230]

The police have apparently been here 3 times, I've not been in, intimidated and accused my sons of lying (about me not being in), the day we arranged for them to come when I would be in they didn't! Apparently they will come and discuss this here with me and arrange a further discussion at the police station in Manchester.

Is this not excessive?

Not really, no. The number of trips is irrelevant. They'll have to keep coming back until they can speak to your children about it in your presence. I imagine they will have asked your kids when they thought you would be in and for whatever reason they got it wrong/ended up dealing with another incident/your kids got it wrong/you went out etc etc, leaving them having to make a wasted trips.

It's a minor thing to get sorted but until they can speak to your kids in your presence they'll keep coming back!

 

[district]

I'm just shocked at the attitude of the police and treating my kids like criminals

Failing to produce a valid ticket for inspection is an offence under the Railway Byelaws. It is a strict liablity matter, meaning that all that needs to be proved is that your son failed to produce a valid ticket. There is no need in a strict liability case to prove any inent. This is discussed further in Section 8 of Rail UK Fares & Ticketing Guide.

A byelaw offence is still a criminal offence which you admit that your son has committed. A byelaw offence isn't a recordable offence, which means it will not appear on the Police National Computer (PNC) and will not show on a criminal records check (A DBS check, or more commonly known as a CRB check).

I do agree and sympathise with you in that the rules need to be applied consistently, by ticket office staff and conductors as well, in order to prevent any confusion from happening.

By the way, not that it matters now, but do your sons travel by train each day? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a season ticket and then not have to worry about finding the money each morning?

 

[W230]

By the way, not that it matters now, but do your sons travel by train each day? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a season ticket and then not have to worry about finding the money each morning?

When I was at school and took the train ones top to the school, I always hoped that the guard wouldn't come round so I could keep the fare my parents had given me when I got off. Not right I know but that was what happened. I'd imagine the problems Northern appear to be having with tickets is probably this very same thing!

 

[district]

When I was at school and took the train ones top to the school, I always hoped that the guard wouldn't come round so I could keep the fare my parents had given me when I got off. Not right I know but that was what happened. I'd imagine the problems Northern appear to be having with tickets is probably this very same thing!

I remember back in 2006 when I was at secondary school, I caught the bus and would buy a Megarider weekly bus ticket each Monday morning. I was looking forward to buying a McFlurry with the £1 change from the £10 note my parents gave me! Shame they are now £11.50, but that's the perks of using Plusbus seasons!

 

[soil]

A couple of things:

1. Don't they need to get home again? 90p single, £1.25 return, surely you'd just buy the return?
2. Why don't you get the season, £4.95/week?

 

[RPI]

Surely travelling every day then you would buy them a season ticket to cover the entire turn? that way you ensure that they have a valid ticket every day without the need to get to the station early and then you wont need to worry, you will be happy in the knowledge that they are travelling every day with a valid ticket.

 

[Nym]

One could even purchase them a period season ticket for a month or more to the spesific day of leaving school for holidays, this of course, would always be cheaper than weekly seasons or daily tickets as it avoids paying for unused weekends.

 

[island]

Perhaps they get a lift home in he afternoons.

 

[maniacmartin]

One could even purchase them a period season ticket for a month or more to the spesific day of leaving school for holidays, this of course, would always be cheaper than weekly seasons or daily tickets as it avoids paying for unused weekends.

Assuming the ticket isn't lost during the term. With day and weekly tickets a loss isn't as bad.

 

[RPI]

Assuming the ticket isn't lost during the term. With day and weekly tickets a loss isn't as bad.

lost seasons can normally be replaced

 

[6Gman]

They are coming back tonight, under strict instructions from my son to be here between 7 and half past due to his football training and man u playing football. Watch this space, snow is predicted and we always get snowed in!!

Any advice what would happen next month when one is 16 years old?

If you've read this far, thank you :roll:

Well, my advice would be to take it rather more seriously, and not to tell the Police that you expect them to fit around football training and Manchester United games!

 

[pomme]

thank you all for your comments, just reading as now in from work.

I did used to buy a weekly/monthly pass for the eldest (the youngest has only just changed to this school). I stopped as I had to go to the train station to buy using my debit card, I give them the same monies weekly that a pass would cost so I'm not saving anything (maybe an £80 fine!). Their money is always in hand, and they offer if he walks past, of course at the end of the week if they've a couple of quid left it's for them. I think a week it's now £6, month £22 but with the added bonus of being able to travel greater manchester all weekend, not good that in a few weeks it will cost my eldest £44 a month to get to school! :cry: One reason I get the train to save petrol money though my work is the same train line so they do sometimes get a lift.

I spoke to the police woman today as she rang me. I told her they wouldn't have a clue they were committing any type of offence as as that's what we have always done, as we've always been able to purchase on the train, I've done a few times the past week. She said they have no control over the men working the ticket office as they don't employ them! But understands why I've never reinforced to them to buy the ticket before. I explained how last time we had snow a train was cancelled and the ticket man told me to get on Hadfield train as that's the one I'd come back on so I wouldn't be cold at the station - now that did cross my mind that I didn't have a ticket for Hadfield but it was cold lol!

I offered that we'd all go down to the station to save her keep coming up here and the other kids have been down to the station for a caution.

I agree the ticket inspections are very hit and miss at Piccadilly. Last weekend I got off the train and went straight to man with ticket machine - lots of folk walked directly past him only to find they were asked at the end to show their tickets and they then had the opportunity to come join the queue and purchase one.

I've told the lads I'll buy them weekly passes, one's not happy, obviously he'd rather have a couple of quid - literally is this as often they pay on the way home - I said fine your record your £80.00! I'm sure it'll sink in overnight.

thanks again, am glad I found this forum as it was useful being insightful today, I did explain to her that I'd been reading up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, my advice would be to take it rather more seriously, and not to tell the Police that you expect them to fit around football training and Manchester United games!

Fortunately, she was very nice and had a SOH!!

Albeit he missed his football training on the date we arranged for them to initially come!

 

[soil]

Sounds like the police had em bang to rights.

Are the fines enforceable against minors?

 

[island]

Sounds like the police had em bang to rights.

Are the fines enforceable against minors?

I don't think so.

Per the above, it doesn't work like "if you don't get asked, keep the money". You pay before boarding, and only if unable to do so do you buy on board, and so on.

 

[pomme]

like I said I thought you could pay on the train as I'm told I can, if the conductor doesn't get to them in 3 stops they are not going to run around looking for him and I dont ask for the train tickets and by money back at the end of the week!

no I dont tell minors not to pay - read what I've put - I believed you could pay the conductor, they mainly do pay, very infrequently do they miss but like the person who owned up to hoping to not pay and keep a quid when he was little I'm not stupid I know that's what kids do!

 

[swj99]

are all forums ............... like MSE

I don't know, I haven't been on there for ages.

A lad from our school used to get the train a few times a week, other days his mum or dad gave him a lift, so he didn't bother with a season ticket. This was back in the old BR days when they had those pale purple tickets. This guy used to change the date on the ticket with a blue Parker ball pen. Never got caught either. He did get nicked for attempted fraud some years later, (a matter totally unrelated to the railways) but luckily for him he was never charged.

 

[RPI]

So reading your last post [OP] sums it up really i'm afraid, basically you are encouraging them the only pay when challenged, which is one of the most common forms of fare EVASION and quite rightly BTP have dealt with it.

 

[34D]

A few weeks ago my 2 DS were found to be travelling without a valid ticket. they were on the way to school, boarded the train at Broadbottom station via the unmaned entrance

Out of interest, is the unmanned entrance on the opposite platform to the ticket office? Which platform did they travel from?

 

[Dolive22]

Failing to produce a valid ticket for inspection is an offence under the Railway Byelaws. It is a strict liablity matter, meaning that all that needs to be proved is that your son failed to produce a valid ticket. There is no need in a strict liability case to prove any inent. This is discussed further in Section 8 of Rail UK Fares & Ticketing Guide.

A byelaw offence is still a criminal offence which you admit that your son has committed. A byelaw offence isn't a recordable offence, which means it will not appear on the Police National Computer (PNC) and will not show on a criminal records check (A DBS check, or more commonly known as a CRB check).

I do agree and sympathise with you in that the rules need to be applied consistently, by ticket office staff and conductors as well, in order to prevent any confusion from happening.

By the way, not that it matters now, but do your sons travel by train each day? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a season ticket and then not have to worry about finding the money each morning?

All you have to prove for the Byelaw 18 (1) or (2) offence is that they travelled without a ticket (1) or failed to produce one (2) and that the 18 (3) defences don't apply. I think the 18 (3) iii. defence may apply. It's open to debate, but my advice to the PC issuing a penalty notice or an Inspector cautioning would be that it is not sufficiently clear cut for such a disposal. My advice to a Police Disciplinary Tribunal hearing an allegation against an Inspector for cautioning in these circumstances would be the same. If at some point in the future it came before me as a DJ(MC) or my bench as a Legal Adviser to the magistrates, I suspect my decision would be that either they had permission, or that it was sufficiently difficult for someone to know whether they came within the 18 (3) iii. defence that to convict would be ex post facto criminal law.

The Byelaw offences will show up on a full PNC check.

I'm afraid the police conduct does sound pretty dire here. They should be treating you with respect. Until you accept a caution or are accepted at trial, you are just an innocent member of the public who they think may have broken the law. It seems perfectly reasonable to expect them to make a convenient appointment to meet you having broken their first appointment. The police (understandably) don't take too kindly to suspects missing appointments to discuss allegations. Given the police arrest people who miss apointments with them, when they miss appointments they kind of have to take the slot offered when they do the same.

In summary: They shouldn't have cautioned him, they should have treated him with respect, they shouldn't have pressed so hard when a responsible adult wasn't home and they should have kept their appointment. All but the last one are breaches of the disciplinary regulations.

I suggest you make a formal complaint. Quashing a caution is a high court job, but a letter recording it should not have been issued is the next best thing. These things can come back to haunt you. As to the rest it is the responsibility of us all to assist the police to maintain disciplinary standards just as it is to assist them in preventing crime.

This might read quite anti-police. It isn't and I'm not. I'm always pro-police, it's just that sometimes I'm pro the Professional Standards Department rather than pro any given officer who is in the wrong.

 

[Ferret]

All you have to prove for the Byelaw 18 (1) or (2) offence is that they travelled without a ticket (1) or failed to produce one (2) and that the 18 (3) defences don't apply. I think the 18 (3) iii. defence may apply. It's open to debate, but my advice to the PC issuing a penalty notice or an Inspector cautioning would be that it is not sufficiently clear cut for such a disposal. My advice to a Police Disciplinary Tribunal hearing an allegation against an Inspector for cautioning in these circumstances would be the same. If at some point in the future it came before me as a DJ(MC) or my bench as a Legal Adviser to the magistrates, I suspect my decision would be that either they had permission, or that it was sufficiently difficult for someone to know whether they came within the 18 (3) iii. defence that to convict would be ex post facto criminal law.

The Byelaw offences will show up on a full PNC check.

I'm afraid the police conduct does sound pretty dire here. They should be treating you with respect. Until you accept a caution or are accepted at trial, you are just an innocent member of the public who they think may have broken the law. It seems perfectly reasonable to expect them to make a convenient appointment to meet you having broken their first appointment. The police (understandably) don't take too kindly to suspects missing appointments to discuss allegations. Given the police arrest people who miss apointments with them, when they miss appointments they kind of have to take the slot offered when they do the same.

In summary: They shouldn't have cautioned him, they should have treated him with respect, they shouldn't have pressed so hard when a responsible adult wasn't home and they should have kept their appointment. All but the last one are breaches of the disciplinary regulations.

I suggest you make a formal complaint. Quashing a caution is a high court job, but a letter recording it should not have been issued is the next best thing. These things can come back to haunt you. As to the rest it is the responsibility of us all to assist the police to maintain disciplinary standards just as it is to assist them in preventing crime.

This might read quite anti-police. It isn't and I'm not. I'm always pro-police, it's just that sometimes I'm pro the Professional Standards Department rather than pro any given officer who is in the wrong.

Am I the only person who finds this post outrageous? :roll:

 

[Dolive22]

Am I the only person who finds this post outrageous? :roll:

Probably not. Any specific objection to what I said?

 

[Ferret]

Probably not. Any specific objection to what I said?

So, the Police have detected fare evasion, which the OP has admitted. The Police have spoken to the people involved in an attempt to nip this evasion in the bud before it develops into something far more serious, and you've accused them of being unprofessional.

From where I'm standing, you're encouraging what in my opinion would be a baseless complaint about the Police, and by inference appear to be condoning the actions of the teenagers involved. The post has been referred to the moderators for their opinion, which I shall of course respect.

 

[jon0844]

Surely travelling every day then you would buy them a season ticket to cover the entire turn? that way you ensure that they have a valid ticket every day without the need to get to the station early and then you wont need to worry, you will be happy in the knowledge that they are travelling every day with a valid ticket.

The easy avoidance opportunities means that it has been cheaper to just pay £1 every now and then than buy a season ticket! Pretty obvious and blatant fare evasion right there.

I would love to know how many times circumstances has resulted in not buying a ticket at all, which would kind of explain why there's a massive clamp down that must be (if only the posts on here are anything to go by) netting quite a lot of money.

And before anyone says it, money that was owed to the train company in the first place, not some sneaky attempt to make money at the expense of passengers. Those that buy a ticket every day are probably well chuffed when reading these posts.

 

[Dolive22]

So, the Police have detected fare evasion, which the OP has admitted. The Police have spoken to the people involved in an attempt to nip this evasion in the bud before it develops into something far more serious, and you've accused them of being unprofessional.

From where I'm standing, you're encouraging what in my opinion would be a baseless complaint about the Police, and by inference appear to be condoning the actions of the teenagers involved. The post has been referred to the moderators for their opinion, which I shall of course respect.

They may have detected fare evasion in the sense of someone who was going to take advantage of an opportunity to avoid paying, which I condemn. What they have not done is proven someone had committed any particular offence. It appears they have then administered a caution for an offence that may not have been committed. This is unprofessional. They appear to have been unprofessional in a number of other ways.

I'm rather disappointed that someone would try and have my post removed rather than going point by point with me disputing what I said.

 

[jon0844]

If someone has admitted something (and here the OP has made it quite clear that they often get to keep a few quid by not buying a ticket) then how can we be arguing about the actions of the police?

Their job is to try and nip things in the bud, which might just stop these kids going on to do other illegal things that might one day affect you. So rather than try to be some do gooder that thinks the kids should be treated with kid gloves, let the police get on with things!!