Break of Journey

[postye]

Hi,

I will be travelling from York - Leeds in the next week or so, and as I will have plenty of time to do it I wondered about breaking my journey to take in the sights of North Yorkshire.
An off peak single is available for £11.00 route HARROGATE, but
i) would I be able to break my journey with this ticket, and
ii) could I break the journey more than once, i.e. getting off at Knaresborough and again at Harrogate before continuing on to Leeds?

Thanks
Dennis

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

1) Yes
2) Yes

More info on break of journey here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1179615&postcount=8

 

[soil]

is that guide now public?

 

[yorkie]

Not yet, but I've given postye access

 

[postye]

Many Thanks Yorkie, thats very helpful

 

[soil]

On the subject of BoJ, surely a York - Micklefield ticket is cheaper, and valid via Knaresborough and Harrogate to stop short at Leeds?

 

[yorkie]

On the subject of BoJ, surely a York - Micklefield ticket is cheaper, and valid via Knaresborough and Harrogate to stop short at Leeds?

It is.

I would not recommend it though, as it would not be a hassle-free journey.

 

[crispy1978]

It is.

I would not recommend it though, as it would not be a hassle-free journey.

I like to think I'm more up on ticket travel than the average Joe Bloggs on the street - but, travelling the York-Leeds line quite a bit, I can't understand how a York-Micklefield ticket would be valid through to Leeds?

I'm sure the posters are right, but could someone explain to me please?

 

[LexyBoy]

It's only valid via Leeds if travelling via Harrogate. As to why...

Short version:NRE shows it as valid.

Slightly less short version:
York is a member of York Group for routeing purposes.
Micklefield is a member of Leeds Group for routeing purposes.

No fares check required, permitted routes shown by map TP which shows a direct line between York and Leeds.

Permitted routes are thus any trains on routes between York and Leeds group which do not pass through another routeing point or double back through Micklefield, then trains from Leeds to Micklefield (if necessary).

 

[soil]

I like to think I'm more up on ticket travel than the average Joe Bloggs on the street - but, travelling the York-Leeds line quite a bit, I can't understand how a York-Micklefield ticket would be valid through to Leeds?

I'm sure the posters are right, but could someone explain to me please?

Micklefield is part of the Leeds Routeing Point Group, along with Leeds, Cross Gates, Garforth, and East Garforth.

York is a Routeing Point.

Since the two stations are both Routeing Points, the permitted routes include mapped routes between York and Leeds.

York - Leeds is valid according to the Routeing Guide on map TP, which is here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=106

Since this does not specify a via point (e.g. by marking Harrogate or Ulleskelf on the map), it is valid on both paths between Leeds and York.

This is confirmed by booking sites, such as that of Transpenine Express or any other TOC, which if you request York - Micklefield and specify 'via Harrogate' gives you a long list of routes which consist of taking the York - Leeds via Harrogate train, then Leeds - Micklefield.

As I understand it, York - Leeds is owned by TPE, which has high fares, and this inflates prices on the Northern-owned route via Harrogate, whereas because Micklefield is served by stopping Northern services, not TPE, fares, set by Northern, are much lower.

Generally speaking the Leeds routeing group creates some interesting fare opportunities, since on local journeys the fares to different stations in the group (this is not the case for all routeing point groups) often vary substantially, allowing for this kind of saving.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, Lexyboy's calculation is correct. It is a permitted route, it was first pointed out to me at a Fares Workshop by a member based in the local area about a year and a half ago, but I wouldn't like to try it as it's not worth the hassle for the sake of a very small saving!

If I wanted to do York-Leeds, I'd generally want to go direct, and there's a couple of suitable tickets for that purpose. One of them appears to have been spotted by the TOCs as it has increased dramatically in price (), so I've moved over to another one now!

In fact, York - Leeds can be done for as little as ~£9 (undiscounted) return, using a certain combination of tickets that the TOCs would find it harder to do anything about, if they spotted it, however it restricts you to only one train every 2 hours, which is about a tenth of the available services.

 

[maniacmartin]

In this case I disagree. I do not think that it is a permitted route, as map TP shows the line from York to Leeds branching off the line from Leeds to Selby, rather than going into Leeds directly. This is sufficient in my mind to indicate that it must not be the line via Harrogate that is the mapped route.

 

[soil]

I don't think that line has any meaning, since Micklefield, where the line branches, is in fact a part of Leeds routeing point.

Just as if you look at one of the south of London maps, you will see a line from 'Bromley South' (which is in fact Petts Wood and Orpington) to Grove Park, perpendicular to a line from 'Bromley South' (which is Bickley and Bromley South) to Swanley.

The lines from Selby and York to Leeds should in fact go into Leeds (i.e. Micklefield) directly.

It is unreasonable to draw implications from the angles of lines IMO. Note that other maps are clearly marked 'Church Fenton' and/or 'Harrogate'. This one has neither, so there is no way to determine that one or other route is invalid.

 

[maniacmartin]

Just as if you look at one of the south of London maps, you will see a line from 'Bromley South' (which is in fact Petts Wood and Orpington) to Grove Park, perpendicular to a line from 'Bromley South' (which is Bickley and Bromley South) to Swanley.

I presume this is map LL, however Bromley South is a square so a routeing group. Petts Wood is indeed a member of the group.. I'm not sure how this example counters my claim.

The lines from Selby and York to Leeds should in fact go into Leeds (i.e. Micklefield) directly.

But that's not how it's drawn, which leads me to believe that the line forks in between the Leeds routeing group and Selby, which is consistant with it only representing the line via Church Fenton, as the fork is indeed beyond Micklefield.

It is unreasonable to draw implications from the angles of lines IMO.

I agree. However, I am drawing an implication from where the forks in the lines are, by interpreting the map as a schematic or like a circuit diagram, not by considering the angles.

Note that other maps are clearly marked 'Church Fenton' and/or 'Harrogate'. This one has neither, so there is no way to determine that one or other route is invalid.

I would agree if it wasn't for the fact it's drawn branching from the Selby line

 

[yorkie]

In this case I disagree. I do not think that it is a permitted route, as map TP shows the line from York to Leeds branching off the line from Leeds to Selby, rather than going into Leeds directly. This is sufficient in my mind to indicate that it must not be the line via Harrogate that is the mapped route.

Is Leeds - York via Harrogate not a mapped route in your opinion?

 

[maniacmartin]

Is Leeds - York via Harrogate not a mapped route in your opinion?

In my opinion it is not a mapped route.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think the way the maps are drawn is a red herring. They seem to have been just knocked up in Microsoft PowerPoint and I'm sure there is plenty of potential for human error. In my opinion the key thing is that when traversing a link between two routeing points on a map, you neither double back through any stations nor pass through any other routeing points.

This interpretation is supported by the electronic version of the routeing guide, which simply describes each map in terms of a list of pairs of routeing points.

A similar issue [thread=75257]came up recently[/thread] in the context of an Ilkley to Wakefield Kirkgate journey using Map WY, which allows travel from Pontefract to Wakefield via both Castleford and Streethouse. The map appears to have been "helpfully" drawn in PowerPoint (perhaps by Andrew Tolley from ATOC) to show the geographical triangle of lines around Castleford/Woodlesford/Normanton, which could be taken to imply that only travel via Castleford is allowed. But I really don't think that's correct!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

When considering maniacmartin's point of view, I'm a little perplexed that it presupposes an element in the process which has not been explicity stated as a requirement to validity that I am aware of.

In addition to the terms, definitions, tables, maps and procedures to be found in the Routing Guide, it also supposes that the passenger has access to and/or prior knowledge of a geographic map of the railways, from which the concept of "branching off the Selby line" might have some meaning. To go further, I can't see where the requirement would arise for a passenger to have prior knowledge of from which end of York station a train would depart to reach Selby, Harrogate, Leeds or anywhere else.

If I didn't posess such prior knowledge, I don't think I could deduce from the Routing Guide alone that a train about to depart northwards from York station (and which could convey me on my way to Leeds) would not be "branching off the Selby line". It might not even be apparent in which direction it was about to depart until it began to move.

I find it less perplexing if we confine ourselves to a consideration of the stations identified on the maps through which the train passes, and whether any given train reached those stations in that same sequence.
(I agree that it is hard to interpret something as if without some knowledge about the world which we actually know)

 

[MikeWh]

In this case I disagree. I do not think that it is a permitted route, as map TP shows the line from York to Leeds branching off the line from Leeds to Selby, rather than going into Leeds directly. This is sufficient in my mind to indicate that it must not be the line via Harrogate that is the mapped route.

As a further example to quosh this theory, please look at map NK and explain how the lines in the vicinity of Dartford and Slade Green can possibly match the actual geography. Then again, look at map SC and explain how you should get from Crystal Palace to Croydon group without going through Norwood Junction.

 

[soil]

Some of the maps south out of Manchester are equally geographically confusing.

 

[maniacmartin]

Crystal Palace on map SC demonstrates your point very strongly indeed. I'm not sufficiently confident that I would travel via Harrogate on a through ticket myself, but I can definitely see how it could be interpreted as a mapped route.