NX awarded tender to run trains in Germany

[telstarbox]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/07/national-express-german-train-rail

National Express, which operates the London-to-Southend c2c route, has secured two contracts in the North Rhine-Westphalia region – Rheine-Münster-Cologne-Krefeld and Bonn-Cologne-Wuppertal.

The National Express contracts, worth a combined €1.6bn (£1.4bn), are the first "competitive" entry into the German market by a UK player. Prior to being bought by DB, Arriva had acquired a small German rail contract.

Combined, the two Cologne contracts cover a slightly smaller distance than c2c and about half the number of passengers, at 18 million a year.

Have other British operators had success running trains abroad?

 

[Lewisham2221]

And the associated 'thread' that basically allows Guardian website readers to show how little they know about how the railways work - not that it stops them having a good whinge about it though:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/07/national-express-german-rail-route

 

[maxiboy]

Have other British operators had success running trains abroad?

Arriva has been operating some services in Germany (under the brands of alex, Regentalbahn and Vogtlandbahn) before they were taken over by Deutsche Bahn in 2010. Arriva Germany had to be divested and is now known as Netinera, a subsidiary of FS/Trenitalia.

First Group has been running some buses in Baden-Württemberg (Southern Germany) until 2001.

I haven't noticed any business activities from Stagecoach or Go-Ahead in Germany.

Looking at the German rail TOC map (http://spnv.de/website/cms/upload/f...raeger__Eisenbahnverkehrsunternehmen_2013.pdf) I see most TOCs in Germany are originally German, with some competitors from the Netherlands (Abellio), France (Keolis (trading as "eurobahn"), Veolia), Denmark (DSB, "VIAS") and Switzerland (SBB).

Looking forward to NX taking over the RE7 line in North Rhine-Westphalia, although I'm not really fond of them (having travelled on former NXEA's fairly old rolling stock, and not to forget the East Coast disaster), as I believe the railways in Germany need more competition. I was quite upset when reading the comments on the Guardian page, National Rail in Britain does have some weaknesses but Deutsche Bahn is certainly not flawless!

 

[Squaddie]

And the associated 'thread' that basically allows Guardian website readers to show how little they know about how the railways work - not that it stops them having a good whinge about it though:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/07/national-express-german-rail-route

Having just read that thread, I'd say that Guardian readers seem to have a pretty good grasp of how the UK's rail network works...

 

[Lewisham2221]

Having just read that thread, I'd say that Guardian readers seem to have a pretty good grasp of how the UK's rail network works...

What, even though they all seem to think that just because NX have won a couple of contracts the services will suddenly all run late and be short-formed of unreliable, ageing rolling stock running on infrastructure that will suddenly crumble and fail under the extortionate prices German commuters will be forced to pay for travelling cattle class?

 

[atillathehunn]

The Daily Telegraph headline is quite funny.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...8/National-Express-plans-German-invasion.html

And so is the gist of the article.

Did National Express not foul up one of their franchises in the UK? Hand back the keys and walk away?

You can almost hear Rule Britannia being played in the background as your read the DT article though...

 

[87015]

What, even though they all seem to think that just because NX have won a couple of contracts the services will suddenly all run late and be short-formed of unreliable, ageing rolling stock running on infrastructure that will suddenly crumble and fail under the extortionate prices German commuters will be forced to pay for travelling cattle class?

Some of the private entrants in Germany have had a very rough introduction with all sorts of issues - I'd be sceptical if I lived there and it was my route having seen the mess some have got themselves into... The fact that financial penalties apply for delays of two minutes is interesting though.

 

[317666]

Lines RE7 and RB48 then. Of note is that RE7 (Rheine-Münster-Cologne-Krefeld) currently uses double-decker stock. If they are replaced with single-decker EMUs with less capacity, the commuters won't be happy. They weren't when DB introduced single-decker EMUs to the Rhein-Sieg-Express...

 

[maxiboy]

Some of the private entrants in Germany have had a very rough introduction with all sorts of issues - I'd be sceptical if I lived there and it was my route having seen the mess some have got themselves into... The fact that financial penalties apply for delays of two minutes is interesting though.

This is due to mistakes made back in 1994 when the new system was put in place. Rolling stock is usually owned by the TOCs, only rarely does the local Verkehrsverbund (roughly equivalent to a PTE) or the federal states own locos, coaches or EMUs.

When ODEG took over RE2 and RE4 in Berlin/Brandenburg from DB in Dec 2010 they operated a while with some really old coaches leased from ÖBB – because the EMUs that they ordered were not finished… And this is also the reason why DB hasn't lost their S-Bahn Berlin contract :roll:

But it seems that times are finally changing.

"The transport authorities require the operator to procure 36 new electric multiple-units, and negotiations are underway with potential suppliers. The operator would sell these EMUs to the VRR and NWL authorities and then lease them back."
(http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...l-express-wins-german-operating-contract.html)

Rumor has it that the service is to be provided with double deck EMUs...

 

[WestCoast]

I posted a while back about NX looking into this. We will see how NX performs in due course. Obviously one must consider the very different conditions that Nx will be operating under, these are Gross Tendering Contracts where NX is simply paid to deliver the service. Fares, service levels and so on are under the control of the local transport board.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe the railways in Germany need more competition. I was quite upset when reading the comments on the Guardian page, National Rail in Britain does have some weaknesses but Deutsche Bahn is certainly not flawless!

I would not expect many fair and balanced views on any newspaper comments page in the UK and also in most other countries. Too many commentators base their whole view on the railways on one experience or on highly subjective criteria. I can see your point of view regarding competition but privatisation in the UK simply has not delivered that for most journeys. Competition at the tendering process is probably the most effective form of competition in the railway business. Some Bundesländer in Germany are awarding more contracts to private firms that others and I particularly like that decisions regarding this are taken at a regional level (the federal system is not to be taken for granted!).

 

[maxiboy]

I would not expect many fair and balanced views on any newspaper comments page in the UK and also in most other countries. Too many commentators base their whole view on the railways on one experience or on highly subjective criteria. I can see your point of view regarding competition but privatisation in the UK simply has not delivered that for most journeys. Competition at the tendering process is probably the most effective form of competition in the railway business. Some Bundesländer in Germany are awarding more contracts to private firms that others and I particularly like that decisions regarding this are taken at a regional level (the federal system is not to be taken for granted!).

Indeed. However I believe the British model (of franchising and, especially, ROSCOs that are separate from TOCs) does give the governments the powers to act when things go wrong, such as the case of Connex South Eastern/South Central, the "curse of thousands of London commuters". Whereas we've had some massive problems with the Berlin S-Bahn for years, due to a shortage of operational rolling stock as well as staff, and nothing can be done about it – of course the specific S-Bahn trains aren't for sale!

 

[87015]

Indeed. However I believe the British model (of franchising and, especially, ROSCOs that are separate from TOCs) does give the governments the powers to act when things go wrong, such as the case of Connex South Eastern/South Central, the "curse of thousands of London commuters". Whereas we've had some massive problems with the Berlin S-Bahn for years, due to a shortage of operational rolling stock as well as staff, and nothing can be done about it – of course the specific S-Bahn trains aren't for sale!

So if a private outfit had won the Berlin S-Bahn rather than DB, somehow the stock wouldn't have broken? DB have lost millions on the S-Bahn debacle, what is to say a private outfit would have taken those losses rather than just walking away and leaving even more of a mess?

Its not just private outfits that get into a mess - DB won the RE50 Leipzig - Dresden contract tender with shiny new Talent 2 junk replacing sets of dostos, because that is what the lander requested and guess what, there have been mass complaints of these new trains being crap and mass overcrowding. That is what happens when you tender on a route-by-route basis and the spec can't cope with reality two years down the road. Anyone who bids above the spec will loose because it'll cost more - same problems as here.

If NX get a fleet of ODEG style decker EMUs for these contracts, yet by 2015 passenger numbers have wildly increased, what then? You can't shove a couple of spare ex-DR deckers in a Flirt, you can into the existing hauled sets and you can't bring in a EMU from elsewhere to strengthen if its contracted to route X miles away... It'll all end up even more inflexible than in the UK, only the Landers are currently more loose with the purse strings to get out of trouble, but the UK had that to until they realised how much it was all costing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When ODEG took over RE2 and RE4 in Berlin/Brandenburg from DB in Dec 2010 they operated a while with some really old coaches leased from ÖBB – because the EMUs that they ordered were not finished… And this is also the reason why DB hasn't lost their S-Bahn Berlin contract :roll:

I know, Taurus gala!

 

[maxiboy]

So if a private outfit had won the Berlin S-Bahn rather than DB, somehow the stock wouldn't have broken? DB have lost millions on the S-Bahn debacle, what is to say a private outfit would have taken those losses rather than just walking away and leaving even more of a mess?

The disruptions starting from 2009 were caused by both improper maintenance of the rolling stock and a staff shortage. The present rolling stock worked quite well for more than 10 years, when it was decided to reduce maintenance. Essentially, the S-Bahn Berlin subsidiary was improperly managed by Deutsche Bahn, when they were hoping to squeeze out profits, being in a safe position as they are the only owner of S-Bahn suitable rolling stock. "Just walking away and leaving more of a mess" has never been observed in Germany but it would be great fun to see this system collapse.