Excess Fares: Recent Mystery Shopping

[district]

A customer bought 4 x GroupSave tickets, for the route required for the outward portion, with the intention of obtaining a change of route excess for the return portion. The customer then visited numerous stations in an attempt to obtain this excess fare in advance of travel. The stations selected were LO & SWT due to previous reports of poor service at those locations. The final station was Marylebone, to provide a contrast, due to previous reports of good service at that station.

Kensal Rise (LO)

• The customer asked for a change of route excess on the return portion of GroupSave discounted tickets
• The ticket clerk tried his best, and said that a change of route excess was possible but explained that the system would not let him issue it in this case because it required each ticket to be excessed individually and would therefore not apply the GroupSave discount. He was polite and apologetic and said he would find out how it could be done, so if the customer returned at a later date it may be possible.

Willesden Junction (LO)

• The customer asked for a change of route excess on the return portion of GroupSave discounted tickets
• The first ticket office referred the customer to another ticket office the other side of the station, and opened the gate to allow him through
• The second ticket office said that a change of route excess was not possible as this type of excess did not exist and that replacement tickets for the requested route would need to be purchased. A refund form was offered, which the customer declined.

Imperial Wharf (LO)

• The customer asked for a change of route excess on the return portion of GroupSave discounted tickets
• The ticket clerk said that a change of route excess cannot be done as the only type of excess that the system can issue is 'over-distance'
• The customer asked for reservations
• The ticket clerk said they cannot issue reservations from this station
• The customer showed an itinerary printed at West Hampstead (LO) station which stated "reservations can be obtained from any station"
• The ticket clerk said that applies to "National Rail stations" and that Imperial Wharf is "not a National Rail station" because it is "mainly TfL"

Clapham Junction (SWT)

• The customer asked for a change of route excess on the return portion of GroupSave discounted tickets
• The ticket clerk said that the whole ticket must be excessed, as that change of route excess was not available for only one portion.
• The passenger asked if the clerk could look this up in The Manual
• The ticket clerk did not know what The Manual was
• The passenger indicated that it was the ATOC Manual, and asked if the clerk had access to it
• The clerk said they were not familiar with such a Manual and did not have access to it
• The ticket clerk said replacement tickets would need to be purchased, and the originals refunded.

Waterloo (SWT)

• The customer asked for a change of route excess on the return portion of GroupSave discounted tickets
• The ticket clerk said that a change of route excess can only be purchased on the day of travel, and this is now a blanket rule, due to complaints from people who change their minds
• The ticket clerk also said that the whole ticket must be excessed, and that change of route excess was not available for only one portion, and that this is stated in the NRCoC
• The customer indicated he did not believe that was stated in the NRCoC and asked to see a copy
• The ticket clerk said a copy of the NRCoC was not available at the station and could only be obtained online
• The customer indicated that he did not believe this was correct and asked if a memo had been sent from ATOC recently about this matter
• The ticket clerk was surprised the customer knew of the existence of a memo and said yes, a memo was sent on 10 January but that the memo stated that the NRCoC is only available online and not at stations.
• The customer produced a ticket purchased that day, on the back it was stated that the NRCoC is available at stations
• The ticket clerk said that the stock was out of date, and was therefore incorrect.
• The customer asked the ticket clerk if she was familiar with the Routeing Guide, and specifically the 'Dual Route availability' mentioned in Section A
• The ticket clerk said she was familiar with the routeing guide however she was not aware of the 'Dual Route availability' mentioned in Section A, re-affirmed that the customer should purchase an 'Any Permitted' ticket if they want to travel by a different route.
• The customer asked if the ticket clerk had access to the Routeing Guide and could they look at Section A
• The ticket clerk confirmed she did have access but was not prepared to look it up

Marylebone (Chiltern)

• The customer asked for a change of route excess on the return portion of GroupSave discounted tickets
• The ticket clerk issued the excess efficiently and correctly.

 

[Urban Gateline]

This makes for some disappointing reading, especially SWT's interactions, however I am not at all surprised. What it most likely comes down to is that Chiltern have the most comprehensive Retail training and/or most experienced Clerks.

LOROL can be forgiven for their lack of knowledge as they are a relatively new TOC with relatively new staff, most of their queries are likely Oyster or local journeys so it doesn't surprise me that they couldn't handle what is quite a complex request.

In my experience there is quite a regular turnover of ticket office clerks at CLJ, so it really depends who this "mystery shopper" happened to approach on the day, many have not been working there long, and yes judging by their attitudes it is not likely that they are motivated to look up bits in their spare time to learn new things!

At Waterloo it doesn't surprise me that the clerk refused to look up further information at the time, as there was probably a queue of people waiting to buy tickets, so this mystery shopper could have been seen cynically as a time waster by probing the clerk so much!

It did make me laugh though that the clerk at Imperial Wharf didn't think it's a National Rail station...

 

[Biggus Tiggus]

This makes for some disappointing reading, especially SWT's interactions, however I am not at all surprised. What it most likely comes down to is that Chiltern have the most comprehensive Retail training and/or most experienced Clerks.

I suspect it's more that the most experienced clerks are generally to be found at Marylebone, and that conducting the same experiment at other Chiltern stations would have resulted in a less satisfactory outcome. (Most likely being advised to go to Marylebone!)

At least one of the clerks at Marylebone used to work for a former InterCity® TOC, for example, so is likely to have had more comprehensive training and experience than some of their colleagues. (If you're wondering how I know, I recall having been served by said clerk on numerous occasions at their former "home").

LOROL can be forgiven for their lack of knowledge as they are a relatively new TOC with relatively new staff, most of their queries are likely Oyster or local journeys so it doesn't surprise me that they couldn't handle what is quite a complex request.

Don't know if it's still the case, but at one point LO relied heavily on agency staff at Ticket Offices, which could partly explain their lack of knowledge.

 

[swj99]

I'm sure I saw a comment in another thread on here somewhere that train ticketing is too complicated, and the above scenario underlines it even more.

If train operating companies can't be relied upon to provide correct and valid information and fulfil their obligations, it's hardly surprising that customers don't always know if their ticket is correct for the journey they wish to undertake.

 

[snail]

I'm sure I saw a comment in another thread on here somewhere that train ticketing is too complicated, and the above scenario underlines it even more.

So are you saying it should be simplified to abolish change of route excess fares?

How many passengers are even aware of their existence?

 

[yorkie]

How many passengers are even aware of their existence?

Arguably, they shouldn't need to be.

If a passenger asks for, say, York to Preston, outward via Burnley and return via Manchester, the ticket should be sold as a York to Preston route: via Burnley and a change of route excess for Any Permitted route.

 

[trentside]

This kind of thread makes for depressing reading.

A change of route excess is not a hard thing to achieve. For SWT, it's simply a case of finding the original fare, highlighting it, choosing 'Excess From' and then selecting an 'Alternative Route' excess from the list of options - the system will do the rest. As for manual access, providing their set-up is the same as their collegues in the Midlands, the Manual can be accessed from a button on the top right of their screen (providing they don't have Internet Explorer opened underneath, which hides it) and inputting their locations Intranet login details. The button is helpfully labelled 'The Manual (formerly FFRP)' - failure to know what that was, strikes me as a serious training issue.

Even with the ticket being a GroupSave, this shouldn't have become such an issue. I can't think of any examples of restrictive route GroupSaves in my local area, but wouldn't have a problem issuing such an Excess were there such a ticket.

 

[ian959]

So are you saying it should be simplified to abolish change of route excess fares?

How many passengers are even aware of their existence?

I think the comment made is less about abolishing change of route excess fares but rather more about a fares system that is so complicated that even those who should be able to help a passenger simply cannot, ergo the whole fares system needs a massive overhaul and simplification.

 

[W230]

This kind of thread makes for depressing reading.

I agree. When you read threads like this where ticket office staff are unable to issue the correct ticket or more worryingly unaware of what they are being asked to do, and you read RJ's EMT thread, it shows further evidence that either the ticketing is too complex or the staff are poorly trained. Or both.

Why does it seem that nothing ever comes of this?

 

[sheff1]

Well SWT are in the same group as EMT so their results don't surprise me.

Why does it seem that nothing ever comes of this?

Because there is no effective 'passenger champion' organisation nor Regulator.

 

[323235]

Following on from the good experience mentioned with Chiltern Railways.

I have had Change of Ticket Type excess from Aylesbury and High Wycombe. Both were done quickly and the clerk at Aylesbury had The Manual pre-loaded on another computer screen to the left of his Cubic FasTIS terminal.

 

[SS4]

Following on from the good experience mentioned with Chiltern Railways.

I have had Change of Ticket Type excess' from Aylesbury and High Wycombe. Both were done quickly and the clerk at Aylesbury had The Manual pre-loaded on another computer screen to the left of his Cubic FasTIS terminal.

Whilst not a change of route excess Solihull did me an overdistance excess

 

[Greenback]

I agree. When you read threads like this where ticket office staff are unable to issue the correct ticket or more worryingly unaware of what they are being asked to do, and you read RJ's EMT thread, it shows further evidence that either the ticketing is too complex or the staff are poorly trained. Or both.

Why does it seem that nothing ever comes of this?

It is both. One of the first comments I ever made on this forum was about how risible my retail training had been when I joined FGW in the late 1990's. Nothing at all about excesses, or the routeing guide, but fortunately for me the fares system was less complicated in those days!

It seems training has not improved by much, if at all, since 1998. This something that I find very disappointing.

 

[barrykas]

It is both. One of the first comments I ever made on this forum was about how risible my retail training had been when I joined FGW in the late 1990's. Nothing at all about excesses, or the routeing guide, but fortunately for me the fares system was less complicated in those days!

I had three weeks of retail training in Derby when I started with MML in 2000, and the trainer covered Excesses, Supplements and Change-overs, as well as Rail-Sea-Rail and Sleepers.

This was back in the days before restructuring, and we were grade CO3, with our colleagues down the road at Kings Cross Thameslink being CO2.

 

[swj99]

So are you saying it should be simplified to abolish change of route excess fares?

I didn't specifically mention change of route excess fares. I said that if train operating companies couldn't be relied upon to provide correct and valid information and fulfil their obligations, it was hardly surprising that customers didn't always know if their ticket was correct for the journey they wished to undertake. Following on from this, I'd say that fares in general need to be simplified to the point where staff and passengers alike can understand them clearly. Obviously this idea is far too sensible for it to ever happen, but it's a nice thought.

 

[maniacmartin]

LOROL can be forgiven for their lack of knowledge as they are a relatively new TOC with relatively new staff, most of their queries are likely Oyster or local journeys so it doesn't surprise me that they couldn't handle what is quite a complex request.

I disagree. A company is relatively new doesn't mean it can be forgiven for not providing good customer service or fulfilling its contractual obligations (although it may well explain the cause of it)

 

[island]

Indeed. I accept this type of transaction is not frequently carried out (I don't, for example, expect that a random regional station will be called upon to change a dozen advances and do 10 change of route excesses in a day), but there should at the very least be a detailed how-to guide available to ticket office staff when they need it.

 

[yorkie]

Following on from this, I'd say that fares in general need to be simplified to the point where staff and passengers alike can understand them clearly..

I would suggest you either create a new thread to discuss that proposal, or I could locate one of the many old threads discussing it and we could continue one of those, as it is a very complex issue.

Anyway going back to the training, I think LO staff should if anything be better trained, being a new TOC they should all have had training relatively recently. I believe the training they receive is, in general, inadequate.

 

[trentside]

Indeed. I accept this type of transaction is not frequently carried out (I don't, for example, expect that a random regional station will be called upon to change a dozen advances and do 10 change of route excesses in a day), but there should at the very least be a detailed how-to guide available to ticket office staff when they need it.

I'd agree that a 'How to' guide would be good, but it would require staff to actually know it exists and use it - and managers to actively produce it. Depending on the system you work with, it's not actually a complicated process but seems to be one that causes most confusion and hassle for passengers.

I'd also agree with island and say that at some locations, they're not the most common transaction. I'd say I probably do a few during a week, but it's not the most common transaction - I probably do Advance-Advance and over-distance more than the others. An exception shift would be one that I had this week where I did 3 over-distance, 2 change of routes and a couple of Advance-Advance excesses. Two of these were also zero fares, again something I'll do without issue - all I need to ensure is that I print off a receipt so I have the transaction details for the zero fares register.

 

[richw]

I disagree. A company is relatively new doesn't mean it can be forgiven for not providing good customer service or fulfilling its contractual obligations (although it may well explain the cause of it)

Shouldnt this improve customer service, as the training and policies should be fresh in their minds, along with the TOCs new contract