Unpaid Fair Notice - Appeal?

[RvN#1!]

Evening folks,

Today I had to make a return train journey with Virgin Trains from London Euston to Birmingham New Street. This was all made under one booking - via my work - in my name, and under one ticket booking reference.

I printed the tickets out this morning, and hopped on the out train to Birmingham no problems. On the return, I realised I only had 4 of 5 tickets,

Both parts of the London-> Birmingham
Only the seat reservation for Birmingham->London
The receipt for all 5 tickets

So I was therefore missing the Advance Ticket for the Birmingham New Street - London Euston.

The Birmingham New Street -> London Euston train was an advance for the 17:20, which was the train I caught.

Now either the machine didn't print out all 5 tickets, or I somehow managed to leave one inside the tray whilst picking them up. I explained this to the train fare man and he issued an 'Unpaid Fare Notice' of £79

What are my chances on appealing this fare? I have in my person the confirmation email of booking and 4 of the 5 tickets to provide as evidence that a) I was booked on the 17.20 and b) the Unpaid Fare Notice which proves I caught the 17.20

Thanks for any advice

 

[GadgetMan]

If you have the receipt, which is usually the last coupon to be printed then it is unlikely you left the TVM before it had finished printing. This means you either did not collect ALL the coupons or have misplaced one of them since leaving the machine.

If the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) did fail to print a particular coupon then they usually register an Error on the system which can be checked by Train Companies. I'm happy to check for any errors under your booking reference if you PM me your collection reference.

I would advise you check all your pockets/bags/wallet etc that you had with you between collecting the tickets and finishing your travels on the day as quite often passengers claim the machine didnt print a coupon, then go through their bag/wallet/pocket and find that in actual fact it did and it was with them all along.

The Unpaid Fares Notice was issued to you because you failed to hand over a Valid ticket for inspection, therefore any succesful appeal will rely on either proving the TVM failed to print all coupons or on good will gesture from Virgin Trains. They seem to be rather generous at the moment so no harm in trying to appeal to their better nature. I'm not sure if Virgin use RPSS/IRCAS to administer their UFNs, as these companies are less likely to show discretion.

An option open to you would be to pay it and then send a complaint to Virgin Customer Services and see if they will refund you in travel vouchers.

 

[RvN#1!]

Thanks GadgetMan, will post through the reference now.

I'll have a look through my pockets but the only place it could be is jacket/jean pocket or wallet. I think the most logical explanation is it may have slipped back into the tray before my noticing.

In terms of my options, I presume best bet is to pay the Unpaid Fare Notice and appeal in the meantime? What would you say my chances actually are of a successful appeal? I don't pretend to understand all of the train's T&C's but from a personal perspective, I feel I have a fair amount of documentation that shows I was booked on the right train, and have 4/5 of my tickets so no one else could have boarded it either.

 

[snail]

Virgin's current 'generosity' includes sending out travel vouchers for a quick resolution of customer service correspondence. If you are happy to receive a refund in that form I think you have a very good chance of success.

 

[RvN#1!]

Yes I'd be reasonably happy with that, I'd be likely to use the vouchers in the future.

Should I be asking for a goodwill gesture in my appeal letter, or just a straight refund and see what they come back with?

 

[GadgetMan]

Thanks GadgetMan, will post through the reference now.

I'll have a look through my pockets but the only place it could be is jacket/jean pocket or wallet. I think the most logical explanation is it may have slipped back into the tray before my noticing.

In terms of my options, I presume best bet is to pay the Unpaid Fare Notice and appeal in the meantime? What would you say my chances actually are of a successful appeal? I don't pretend to understand all of the train's T&C's but from a personal perspective, I feel I have a fair amount of documentation that shows I was booked on the right train, and have 4/5 of my tickets so no one else could have boarded it either.

You may have to make another few posts before you can send PMs. Apologies for the slow edit/addition to my earlier post. I agree with Snail, Virgin seem to be throwing vouchers at complaints like they're going out of fasion.

 

[RvN#1!]

Ok, it sounds like I have enough to make an appeal worthwhile at least, just have to see how it goes from there. Thanks very much both of you for your help, much appreciated.

 

[AlterEgo]

Virgin's current 'generosity' includes sending out travel vouchers for a quick resolution of customer service correspondence.

It doesn't...

 

[bb21]

Chances of success? Don't count on it.

In theory Virgin do not have to compensate you anything, so anything you might get is a bonus. Unfortunately this could be an expensive lesson, however I am sure that you will be more careful in the future and check that you have all the coupons before you leave a ticket machine.

 

[maniacmartin]

A frequent problem is that lots of ticket machine trays are already full of loads of discarded collection receipts before the time you get to them, so your tickets can get lost amongst them.

If this is a problem for the OP also, then I suggest you clear out any random coupons from the tray before you commence your transaction

 

[Dave1987]

I'm sure the TVM says how many tickets have been printed and say make sure you have them all.

 

[John @ home]

I'm sure the TVM says how many tickets have been printed and say make sure you have them all.

Not quite. For tickets ordered in advance, the machine prints a collection receipt. That's helpful. The collection receipt states the number of "vouchers" which have been printed. That's helpful too.

But some TOCs count the collection receipt as a "voucher" and others don't. This makes the collection receipt rather ineffective as a check that nothing is missing.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . But some TOCs count the collection receipt as a "voucher" and others don't. This makes the collection receipt rather ineffective as a check that nothing is missing.

Indeed. Unuseable.

For what its worth, I've begun to pay more attention to the coupons I find in the hopper when I approach a Ticket Vending Machine, left behind by a previous customer, and usually found sitting vertically against the left hand side of the tray. I've found some very high value tickets and reservation vouchers recently - and if that's just the few that I find, we can assume that there must be several hundred passengers every day, somewhere on the network, travelling while having left coupons in a machine behind them.

 

[island]

Thanks GadgetMan, will post through the reference now.

I'll have a look through my pockets but the only place it could be is jacket/jean pocket or wallet. I think the most logical explanation is it may have slipped back into the tray before my noticing.

In terms of my options, I presume best bet is to pay the Unpaid Fare Notice and appeal in the meantime? What would you say my chances actually are of a successful appeal? I don't pretend to understand all of the train's T&C's but from a personal perspective, I feel I have a fair amount of documentation that shows I was booked on the right train, and have 4/5 of my tickets so no one else could have boarded it either.

How did you get through the barrier at Birmingham New Street without a ticket?

Virgin's current 'generosity' includes sending out travel vouchers for a quick resolution of customer service correspondence. If you are happy to receive a refund in that form I think you have a very good chance of success.

It doesn't...

A number of people have posted here in the last couple of months saying that they made some sort of customer service complaint to Virgin and received back a letter saying "due to ______, we won't be reading or responding to your complaint, but here's £50 in RTVs".

 

[snail]

It doesn't...

They mustn't like you!

 

[Yew]

Indeed. Unuseable.

For what its worth, I've begun to pay more attention to the coupons I find in the hopper when I approach a Ticket Vending Machine, left behind by a previous customer, and usually found sitting vertically against the left hand side of the tray. I've found some very high value tickets and reservation vouchers recently - and if that's just the few that I find, we can assume that there must be several hundred passengers every day, somewhere on the network, travelling while having left coupons in a machine behind them.

As an aside, If I found an AP seat reservation for a train I was taking in the hopper of a ticket machine, what would be the best course of action? Hand to the guard?

 

[maniacmartin]

I've handed in tickets and reservations before to gateline staff at the relevant platforms of large stations, and they haven't really cared. Certainly no effort appeared to have been made to contact the tickets' owners via the tannoy system. If you can find the guard for a service, then I'd agree that would be useful - just its not easy to do so at a big station where you may not be able to get to the train without holding a valid ticket yourself.

 

[jon0844]

A number of people have posted here in the last couple of months saying that they made some sort of customer service complaint to Virgin and received back a letter saying "due to ______, we won't be reading or responding to your complaint, but here's £50 in RTVs".

Same policy as Virgin Atlantic perhaps then, where they seem to dish out miles on their Flying Club card when you write in about anything.. and they can be very generous from what I've seen.

I've not personally written to them, but an ex work colleague wrote in about something fairly trivial and was given 25,000 miles straight away. She confessed that she'd done this before, and intended to do so again on her next flight - presumably to earn a nice easy premium economy upgrade or even Upper Class!

Disclaimer: this was about 4 years ago and things might have changed, but I do believe Virgin value customer service and possibly find it easier to dish out some vouchers/miles than actually deal with the complaint/issue itself. It's therefore quite easy to abuse by the looks of it.

 

[trentside]

As an aside, If I found an AP seat reservation for a train I was taking in the hopper of a ticket machine, what would be the best course of action? Hand to the guard?

Yes, that would be the most effective solution for a train you were travelling on - as it would be possible for the guard to reunite it with the ticket bearing the same ToD reference.

If it's not a train you're travelling on, hand them into the ticket office or travel centre if at all possible. They can then be retained in case the person returns - or the event that a guard calls up to check the reservation details. In the best scenario, their owners can be contacted (as the system holds their details) and the tickets returned via post, or collected from the ticket office before travel.

 

[AlterEgo]

A number of people have posted here in the last couple of months saying that they made some sort of customer service complaint to Virgin and received back a letter saying "due to ______, we won't be reading or responding to your complaint, but here's £50 in RTVs".

That policy is no longer in operation.

 

[Pumbaa]

That policy is no longer in operation.

Was that policy an attempt to cut down VTs abysmal response time?