Prosecution Brighton to Victoria

[Airlink]

Rethinking this, I can only come to the conclusion that without the permission of a staff member, the OP would have been deviating between Clapham Junction and Victoria, this piece of track not being on a permitted route from Brighton to London St Pancras International.

So would they be off-route and therefore not liable to a p/f?
Or are they over-distance from CLJ, in which case they would be?

 

[sarahj]

Right, so a ticket to london victoria is valid to london bridge, but is it valid on the route ecr to london bridge via new cross gate? I guess this ticket was a way for southern to grab revenue from FCC, but it looks like to have fallen flat if its valid to london bridge. I do wish we were told these things, would make our life much easier.

SJ

 

[island]

So would they be off-route and therefore not liable to a p/f?
Or are they over-distance from CLJ, in which case they would be?

They are neither over-distance nor off-route; they are deviating and are liable to an SDS from CLJ-VIC if seen by an ordinary member of staff, or a PF if seen by an authorised collector. Off-route would imply violating a restriction under the "route" entry on their ticket, and over-distance would imply travelling to somewhere like West Hampstead.

 

[RJ]

Right, so a ticket to london victoria is valid to london bridge, but is it valid on the route ecr to london bridge via new cross gate? I guess this ticket was a way for southern to grab revenue from FCC, but it looks like to have fallen flat if its valid to london bridge. I do wish we were told these things, would make our life much easier.

SJ

A ticket between Brighton and London Victoria routed Any Permitted/Not Gatwick Express is valid into London Bridge, then across the South London Line into Victoria (direct train required between Denmark Hill and Victoria.)

I'm not convinced FCC lose much revenue. I consider this to be an obscure loophole rather than a ticket intended for passengers to use in this way, hence why it's not made common knowledge. However, anyone willing to brave the atrocious National Routeing Guide can find such validities and use it to save money.

They are neither over-distance nor off-route; they are deviating and are liable to an SDS from CLJ-VIC if seen by an ordinary member of staff, or a PF if seen by an authorised collector. Off-route would imply violating a restriction under the "route" entry on their ticket, and over-distance would imply travelling to somewhere like West Hampstead.

Agreed. The distinction between being off route and deviating depends on the availability of other route options for the same ticket.

 

[bb21]

Right, so a ticket to london victoria is valid to london bridge, but is it valid on the route ecr to london bridge via new cross gate? I guess this ticket was a way for southern to grab revenue from FCC, but it looks like to have fallen flat if its valid to london bridge. I do wish we were told these things, would make our life much easier.

SJ

Yes, a ticket between Brighton and London Victoria is valid via New Cross Gate between East Croydon and London Bridge, unless routed Southern Only which is not valid on FCC services.

You can trace the route between Brighton and London Victoria on map LB via New Cross Gate without doubling back.

1. The ticket concerned is a season ticket, unlike the London - Glasgow ticket

Usage permissions for seasons are different to those for a one journey (single or return) ticket in so far as you can make an unlimited number of journeys to/from/between intermediate stations, including doubling back as often as you like. The Routeing Guide suggests to me, and seemingly to others, that you determine the permitted route for the particular journey you are undertaking *. You, and again others, obviously see things differently.

* as long as that journey is permitted by your season ticket, which a Brighton to London Bridge journey is.

Season ticket or not, you still have to be on a permitted route at all times, for all segments of your journey(s).

A ticket has an origin and destination, therefore will dictate what permitted routes there are. You are doing a journey that involves stopping short on that ticket, therefore you have to abide by these conditions.

The fact that season tickets permit doubling back between stations is irrelevant to this debate. The section between Clapham Junction and Victoria is not covered by a permitted route between Brighton and St Pancras, which are the origin and destination stated on the ticket, therefore you cannot use this ticket to travel to Victoria.

The ticket being a season ticket doesn't magically introduce more permitted routes.

2. A London Terminals to Glasgow ticket is only valid from certain London Terminals, not all. If you could buy a specific London Waterloo to Glasgow ticket things would be different

London Terminals to Glasgow may only be from certain terminals, however using your logic, we are no longer looking at a London - Glasgow journey, but a London - Reading journey (clearly permitted if stopping short on a London - Glasgow ticket), which is permitted out of south London via Clapham Junction. There is no double-back in my example, therefore whether it is a season ticket or not is irrelevant.

Your argument is making the Routeing Guide recursive, which it isn't. Otherwise London - Glasgow will be valid out of any south London terminus, and the Routeing Guide will probably be only a fraction of the size it is today.

 

[RJ]

1. The ticket concerned is a season ticket, unlike the London - Glasgow ticket

Usage permissions for seasons are different to those for a one journey (single or return) ticket in so far as you can make an unlimited number of journeys to/from/between intermediate stations, including doubling back as often as you like. The Routeing Guide suggests to me, and seemingly to others, that you determine the permitted route for the particular journey you are undertaking *. You, and again others, obviously see things differently.

* as long as that journey is permitted by your season ticket, which a Brighton to London Bridge journey is.

2. A London Terminals to Glasgow ticket is only valid from certain London Terminals, not all. If you could buy a specific London Waterloo to Glasgow ticket things would be different

It really doesn't work like that.

Imagine you have a London to Glasgow Anytime Single. You choose to travel from Reading to Manchester. A Reading to Manchester ticket is valid via London, so you are saying that you can use your London to Glasgow ticket to travel back via London.

It defies the what's already a warped perception of logic in place with the NRG . You can stop at any intermediate station on a permitted route between the stations shown on the ticket, but that doesn't equate the right to use permitted routes for random segments of the journey.

 

[soil]

We sell these route spercific tickets as a cheaper alternative to London terminals, so I cannot see how a ticket to London Bridge is valid to London Victoria and VV. If I see a ticket to london bridge on a train to vic I will say change at East Croydon, or if the person wants to go to Vic, sell them a ticket ECR to Vic, though to be honest, I've not seen many that were not FCC only and not valid on my train anyway.

BTN - LBG tickets are FCC Only
BTN - STP are route London Not Underground

Therefore a BTN - LBG ticket is not valid between BTN and - ECR on Southern trains, but a BTN - STP ticket is.

Since a BTN - STP ticket is the same price as BTN-LBG, logically there should not be any sales of BTN-LBG tickets at all, since the STP ticket is the same price and more flexible.

As for routing, any permited to london terminals, yes via Lewes. I've even said Worthing to london terminals is valid via Horsham (the pass wanted to go to littlehampton), but he had difficulty at the barrier, the barrier person going on price. The problem is this infomation is hard to come by and some I've learnt only by reading Barry Doe in Rail or speaking to staff who joined back in stephensons day.

You can get the information from http://trainscanbecheaper.info/

albeit that it is not an official website.

Officially you would check here http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

and see that all stations between Aldrington and Littlehampton/Ford inclusive (not Brighton, and not Hove) are associated with Ford Group,
and since a FOD - London SDS is £28.60

http://brfares.com/#fares?orig=FOD&dest=1072&rlc=

and the fares Shoreham, Southwick, Fishersgate, Portslade and Aldrington to London are all £26.60 SDS

whereas the fares Lancing, East Worthing, West Worthing, Durrington, Goring and Angmering - London are £28.60, then Lancing - London, Worthing - London, etc. are all valid to Ford and then via permitted routes from Ford Group to London, which can be found here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

and includes map SC:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=94

as well as LP:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=65

both of which permit travel via Horsham

Since the SDS fares from Shoreham, Southwick, Fishersgate, Portslade and Aldrington to London are all lower than the fares from Ford/Littlehampton to London, tickets from these stations are NOT valid via Horsham.

 

[igloo]

The fact that season tickets permit doubling back between stations is irrelevant to this debate.

Season tickets don't permit doubling back, but they do permit making multiple journeys (and thus could be used to go from A to B and back again, provided they are valid from A to B).

This may seem like a pedantic difference, but perhaps it is the cause of some of the confusion.

 

[tony6499]

Right, so a ticket to london victoria is valid to london bridge, but is it valid on the route ecr to london bridge via new cross gate? I guess this ticket was a way for southern to grab revenue from FCC, but it looks like to have fallen flat if its valid to london bridge. I do wish we were told these things, would make our life much easier.

SJ

It would be nice if we had some proper training

 

[bb21]

Season tickets don't permit doubling back, but they do permit making multiple journeys (and thus could be used to go from A to B and back again, provided they are valid from A to B).

This may seem like a pedantic difference, but perhaps it is the cause of some of the confusion.

Yes, I should have made it clearer.

It was aimed specifically at sheff1's comment about double-back, which I trust has the meaning that you have just explained.

 

[island]

This is starting to go around in circles!

 

[sheff1]

This is starting to go around in circles!

Indeed it is.

Clearly I have been unsuccesful in explaining my point unambiguously in writing as both bb21 & RJ (two experienced and knowledgeable posters) have read my posts as suggesting something other than what I was intending to convey. If I ever met either on a train I could attempt to explain more clearly ..... but, as I would not know them if I did see them , best to leave the subject.

 

[alcockell]

Umm - out of interest, under the old BR "valid via any reasonable route" - would the OP's ticket have been valid?

 

[yorkie]

The ticket is valid in my opinion, and even IPFAS agree with me.

Someone else used a Chessington to Elstree & Borehamwood Rte: Not Undergriound, and a badly trained, unknowledgable member of staff at London Victoria issued a Penalty Fare (totally incorrectly - but what's to stop them? Nothing!)

He eventually got a refund of the PF, but no compensation for the time, stress, postage costs...

The Penalty Fares Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC). Both state
that where the facility exists at the origin station passengers must buy the correct ticket for their entire journey
before joining the train. Penalty Fare warning notices are displayed at all Penalty Fare stations advising rail users
of the necessity to produce a valid ticket for inspection on request and of the consequences for failing to do so.
Appeal decisions are made in accordance with a Government approved Code of Practice (COP). A copy of the
Penalty Fare Rules, NRCOC and approved COP are available online at https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk.

I note from your appeal that a valid ticket for the throughout journey was presented for inspection on this date. In
accordance with the evidence you have provided to us, it would seem that a valid ticket was held.
With that in mind, I am pleased to inform you that your appeal has been successful and the balance of the notice
has been withdrawn. A cheque for £20.00 will be sent to you shortly by the train company responsible for having
issued the penalty fare.
A statement of account has been provided by the Debt Recovery Agents (RPSS) in
relation to this penalty fare notice.
Yours sincerely
Jason Saunders
Appeals Assessor
Notice Amount Paid:
Already Refunded:
£0.00
RPSS Statement Of Account for reference XXXXXXX
£0.00
£0.00
£0.00
Amount Outstanding:
Fare Due:
Administration Fee:
£0.00
Admin Amount Paid: £0.00

brighton121 - would you like me to put you in contact with the other passenger? I'm sure he'd be willing to provide his case reference. The evidence may be rather useful if it ever gets to court!

 

[bb21]

This whole subject is a joke. I wouldn't trust someone at SouthEastern aka IPFAS to show me the correct map in the NRG even if it is presented to him with the correct page open, let alone be the reference point in how to interpret the NRG correctly if any of RJ's exploits are to go by. :roll: I am willing to put money on the possibility that no one at IPFAS actually understood the NRG so had to pay out. It would be cheaper to do that than consulting a specialist who are few and far in between.

While I note that I did not side with the passenger in this case, this is not to say that I am not pleased about the outcome. For once ambiguity resulted in the passenger's favour. I understand that a passenger may reasonably assume that Victoria is a permitted destination for a ticket into central London, and to be penalised for doing so is extremely harsh.

That said I have no intention of revising my analysis of permitted routes in accordance with the NRG in this case. Following the logic set out in the NRG, this ticket is not valid for travel into Victoria. What the intended use for this ticket is is a wholly separate matter.

 

[rdwarr]

brighton121 - would you like me to put you in contact with the other passenger? I'm sure he'd be willing to provide his case reference. The evidence may be rather useful if it ever gets to court!

This thread is over a year old - I very much doubt the OP is still here given their post count.

 

[RJ]

Hopefully IPFAS are learning that basing their decisions on visceral assumptions is not the way forward where it comes to unusual validity cases. For this reason, I think they did the right thing. That said, I once asked ATOC if walking between London Group stations (Victoria to Euston in the example I gave) on a Not Underground ticket would be following a permitted route and they said no.