Do I need to give up my seat?

[yorkie]

As a hypothetical question, if you found someone else in a seat for which you had a confirmed reservation are you entitled to ask them to move and, if they refused, would the TM have any powers to compel them?

No, the person cannot be compelled to move for sitting in a seat when there are no seat reservations in force.

If there are no seat reservations provided, then there is no seat reservations. There is no way to know which seat is 'reserved' so if invisible seat reservations were enforced, it would lead to a game of "musical chairs" at every single station. (Sadly, some XC guards do adopt a policy of enforcing invisible seat reservations, with unfortunate consequences of chaos and blocking of aisles and mass seat swaps at every station!!!)

It is the policy of most TOCs that a lack of reservation labels/displays means the train is effectively unreserved. That's a sensible policy.

In the unlikely event of no seats being available, then the Guard may use his/her discretion to upgrade you to 1st class or alternatively you may be given a compensation. Although a ticket does not guarantee a seat, if you have a reservation for a seat and none is provided it is generally the policy of many of the longer distance TOCs to give some sort of compensation. For example if EC cannot provide you with a seat at all, when you have reserved one, then you will get a 100% refund on a single ticket. See http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/passengers-charter1/seat-guarantee-scheme/ I think that is very reasonable as you therefore get the travel for free. Other operators may have similar schemes - check with the TOC you are travelling with.

(By the way I merged this with an existing thread as the exact same issue was already being discussed.)

 

[Skymonster]

I'm on an East Coast service which didn't have very long to turn round. Came into carriege E - only a couple of seat reservations out so I grabbed a seat. The guard then announced that there was not time to put out all reservations but any reservations held would still be valid.

Clearly, that guard was an idiot. All that would do is lead to arguments when passengers innocently sat in seats that they didn't realise we're reserved and were then asked to move,, particularly if the train was very heavily loaded.

I think it was established in a previous thread that if there are no marked reservations, then sadly all reservations are void.

Sadly??? If I get on a train and sit in a seat that has no indication provided by the TOC that the seat has been reserved applied to it, and if later someone else comes along to claim that seat by which time all other seats are occupied, why should I get up and stand? If I'd acted in good faith by occupying a seat that had no indication on it that it had been reserved, no way I hell would I give it up for someone who had reserved it if the only alternative was standing - TM or no TM intervention, BTP threat or not. Nor would I expect anyone else to give up a seat reserved by me and occupied in good faith in such circumstances. The failing is not the passenger who sits in an apparently unreserved seat and then finds by some act or omission in the part if the TOC that it is reserved. The failing is with the TOC who should be obliged to resolve the situation to the satisfaction of both parties. It's up to the TOCs to design a robust method of seat reservation that is apparent to both reserver and to other passengers, and if they can't do that or they can't be bothered to do it (either by a failing in the system or staff members being too lazy to put the reservation tickets out) then they shouldn't be offering reservations at all

 

[cuccir]

As I posted previously, Bylaw 19:

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place

It is only an offence to occupy a reserved seat, if a notice indicates that it is reserved. If I was ever in that situation I'd seek to remind a guard of this bylaw!

 

[Phil6219]

As I posted previously, Bylaw 19:



It is only an offence to occupy a reserved seat, if a notice indicates that it is reserved. If I was ever in that situation I'd seek to remind a guard of this bylaw!

The problem here is when electronic reservations are in use, especially on Pendolino's at their origin station, they are switched off until a few minutes before departure which can lead to pandemonium. The issue is "now" there is a reservation displayed, it's almost the equivalent of someone putting a paper reservation on the seat while you weren't looking and then saying "it was reserved all along".

I move, though make a point of saying the bloody thing wasn't working. To be honest I've nearly blown up a few times though given people's attitude and frankly it would have ended in them being stretchered off and me being carried off...

That is not the right attitude however if you are in a position where you can not reserve the seat (for whatever reason) and always find yourself having to move and usually end up standing the whole journey it is beyond irritating, especially when some "reserved" seats are never used on a journey because someone didn't show. Frankly they should do away with seat reservations until they can think of something that works (like paper, which still has no-shows but at least the seats can be spotted and avoided).

Phil

 

[exile]

Surely, since having a train ticket merely entites you to travel and does not entitle you to a seat, train staff are entitled to ask you to move out of a seat - whether it's for someone who has reserved the seat, or someone who needs a seat due to age or infirmity, or for any other reason? I know there's a convention that sitting in a seat gives you "squatter's rights" but I don't see that enshrined anywhere in the NCoC.

On the other hand, if you do reserve a seat, you are, absolutely, entitled to use that seat regardless of whether it has a ticket on it. If the train company cannot enforce this, then you can claim compensation. You shouldn't have to get into an argument with the person who's in your seat.

 

[Hellfire]

On the other hand, if you do reserve a seat, you are, absolutely, entitled to use that seat regardless of whether it has a ticket on it. If the train company cannot enforce this, then you can claim compensation. You shouldn't have to get into an argument with the person who's in your seat.

I have some sympathy with this and with those who feel TOCs need to address this issue. I always reserve a seat because I travel at peak times and am not prepared to stand for more than two hours. Byelaw 19 as stated works against the interests of passengers. If I have a printed ticket saying that I have reserved a particular seat I expect to be able to sit in it regardless of whether the electronic seat indicators are working or not.

This morning most passengers in my carriage managed to sort things out themselves in a civilised manner but had the train been more crowded, and it often is, there could well have been arguments.

The TM did announce that the system was down and apologised. However my view is that passengers who can prove they reserved a particular seat should be allowed to occupy it and the TOC should have a system of enforcing it.

There is always one completely unreserved coach on a Pendolino so those with no reservation can take their chances in there.

 

[craigwilson]

There is always one completely unreserved coach on a Pendolino so those with no reservation can take their chances in there.

Indeed, on the 9-cars, coach E is unreserved, and I believe coaches E, F and U on the 11-cars are the unreserved ones.

 

[Flamingo]

It's always funny when somebody is being particularly obnoxious over a seat to make a big deal of loudly telling the other party to have a free First Class upgrade! Sometimes it's the person looking for the seat, sometimes it's the person who has to move.

(My trains don't have electronic doh-dah's)

 

[reb0118]

...........if you do reserve a seat..............If the train company cannot enforce this, then you can claim compensation. You shouldn't have to get into an argument with the person who's in your seat.

You are indeed entitled to compensation. You can claim back the price of the seat reservation. If you are unable to find an alternative seat then you are entitled to even greater compensation.

Our continental cousins have a different view on seat reservations. In the main they have three systems. 1) Reservation Compulsory: You may not join the train without a seat reservation. In some cases you can buy a reservation from the conductor, usually at a premium if you ask at trainside, otherwise a new ticket and/or fine may be payable. 2) Reservation Recommended: You are expected to hold a reservation but it is not mandatory. However, if you do not hold a reservation then you are not entitled to a seat and have to give way to any passenger with a reservation who may join enroute. Some undertakings do not use seat labels but the lack of labels does not stop a reservation holder from claiming his seat. It is normally possible to make a reservation up to a few minutes prior to the departure time of your train (NB this is not the origin of the service but where you actually board) so it is seen as trying to save a few €s by not getting a reservation and having to move from seat to seat at every stop is the price you pay. 3) No Reservation Possible: Game on ~ every man for himself

NB in Europe it can be up to 4€ for a seat even if you have an advance ticket!

 

[cuccir]

Byelaw 19 as stated works against the interests of passengers.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I think it's better overall for passengers. Without it, it creates a situation in which someone without a reservation could face being shifted at every station. That's worse than having to stand - at least then you can prepare to be stood for a trip. It would create a situation in which a fit and healthy person travelling 30 minutes could force an old couple to stand.

There is always one completely unreserved coach on a Pendolino so those with no reservation can take their chances in there.

And how are irregular travelers meant to know this?

In most cases we can rely on common sense. I'd like to think that the elderly, families, people with luggage, people on.longer trips would get seats. I'd certainly listen to someone who asked for their seat in this circumstance. But I think it's much fairer on all passengers that people cannot be disturbed, without warning, when reservations aren't working.

 

[jon0844]

And how are irregular travelers meant to know this?

It is odd that this isn't published on the boards, or the carriage, as if it's supposed to be kept secret for those in the know.

I knew because I read it on here, but if I forgot on the day then I'd be stuffed unless I quickly checked the forum.. and it's different coaches on different operators' services.

 

[Phil6219]

Virgin do now announce which coach has the unreserved seats but it is usually minutes before boarding finishes and then once again just after pulling out.

I don't remember them announcing anything though back in 2008 so I'm guessing they have had a few instances of things kicking off and complaints over the seat shuffle which has prompted some form of action.

Phil

 

[Seacook]

And how are irregular travelers meant to know this?

Quite so. Furthermore, the unreserved coach changes from time to time. Pendolinos now have coach E clear but when I started commuting on VT in 2003 it was another carriage (B, I think, but I could be wrong) then changed, without any announcements, to E. I used to travel in E anyway(*), even when there were reservations - I was going from Sandwell & Dudley to Birmingham International and there was always a seat available until BHI or Coventry. I noticed the change after a week or so when I realised that there were more unreserved seats than before.

* The exit door for coach E aligned nicely with the lift at BHI.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, on the 9-cars, coach E is unreserved, and I believe coaches E, F and U on the 11-cars are the unreserved ones.

On 11-cars only U and F are unreserved. E has reservations on 11-car sets.

That means, that if an 11-car diagram is being worked unexpectedly by a 9-car, there will be no unreserved coach in Standard.

 

[Wath Yard]

No, the person cannot be compelled to move for sitting in a seat when there are no seat reservations in force.

If there are no seat reservations provided, then there is no seat reservations. There is no way to know which seat is 'reserved' so if invisible seat reservations were enforced, it would lead to a game of "musical chairs" at every single station. (Sadly, some XC guards do adopt a policy of enforcing invisible seat reservations, with unfortunate consequences of chaos and blocking of aisles and mass seat swaps at every station!!!)

Some VWC TMs also enforce this policy. On a recent Pendolino journey the TM announced the reservation system wasn't working but reservations were still in force. Needless to say she didn’t make an appearance in the 75 minutes I was on the train so it was left to passengers to argue the toss.

 

[Flamingo]

It does have to be all or nothing, but I will never make the announcement that reservations don't apply until after departure from the first station, as everybody can find their seat at that one, or one to move to if they have no reservation. After that, it's first come first served!

 

[Hellfire]

And how are irregular travelers meant to know this?

I travel on Virgin every week and the TM invariably announces which coaches are unreserved. If someone boards a peak time VT service without a reservation then they should have to take their chances whether the electronic system is working or not.

Why should people who have planned ahead and booked seats be inconvenienced because the technology fails. As I said, all those passengers who have reserved will be carrying a ticket proving the fact so the TOCs should enforce it.

Of course an upgrade to First would be nice if your seat has been occupied but I don't think that's a given.

 

[yorkie]

But I can turn that around: Why should people who have sat in a seat that is unreserved be inconvenienced because the technology fails?

Also if I have reserved a seat and there is someone sat in it, and there are no reservations, and plenty of spare seats, then I am going to sit in any spare seat. It would look daft to turf someone out in such a situation (as well as being just plain wrong) but then if someone insists on their seat, they could ask me to move!

As Flamingo and others have said, it surely has to be all or nothing!

Fortunately EC have sensible policies in this respect, I've never known there to be invisible reservations in force on EC. In fact it's very rare for there to be no reservations on EC, but when it happens people accept there are no reservations and don't enforce invisible ones!

 

[cuccir]

I travel on Virgin every week and the TM invariably announces which coaches are unreserved.

I'm not a regular Virgin traveller, but I can tell you that on most TOCs (including the primary offender in failed reservations, XC) they don't announce it.

Why should people who have planned ahead and booked seats be inconvenienced because the technology fails. As I said, all those passengers who have reserved will be carrying a ticket proving the fact so the TOCs should enforce it. .

Well that's clearly what you believe. But surely you can also see the impracticality of this? Or at least how it also inconveniences other passengers?

I see two options:

• TOC cancels reservations. If there are people with reservations who can't sit, they get a % of their ticket price back as a refund if they couldn't get seated. Alternatively, guard can seat them in First Class. If train is not full, people largely get on with it anyway, sitting at available seats.
• TOC declares reservations are still active. Passengers sitting may get moved, possibly multiple times, including with their luggage etc. Even where the train is not full, possibility for disputes - passengers often struggle to find their seats with ticket or electronic reservations present, never-mind without. No-one gets any compensation back for the fuss either!

I know which I prefer, but neither outcome here is objectively right. To say that one of these two outcomes is 'anti-passenger' (as you did before) is, however, wrong. They're both ways of dealing with an unsatisfactory situation.

 

[ValleyLines142]

But I can turn that around: Why should people who have sat in a seat that is unreserved be inconvenienced because the technology fails?

Because they could have gone to any staffed journey and said, for example purposes here, 'Can I make a seat reservation for the 13:16 departure from Taunton to Bristol Parkway for Monday, please'. It's generally free of charge (well, it is in FGW land, not sure about anywhere else).

Also if I have reserved a seat and there is someone sat in it, and there are no reservations, and plenty of spare seats, then I am going to sit in any spare seat. It would look daft to turf someone out in such a situation (as well as being just plain wrong) but then if someone insists on their seat, they could ask me to move!

That's a very fair point, but for all we know as passengers, maybe other empty seats are 'supposed' to be reserved as well. This happened to me on an XC journey last week. There was an empty seat opposite, which I could have just sat in, but for all I knew that could have been reserved as well, so if I'd have sat in there and someone else had claimed it then there would have been a right show! :P

 

[ainsworth74]

Because they could have gone to any staffed journey and said, for example purposes here, 'Can I make a seat reservation for the 13:16 departure from Taunton to Bristol Parkway for Monday, please'.

What if they only decided to to travel that day? Or didn't know what train they would need?

It's generally free of charge (well, it is in FGW land, not sure about anywhere else).

Only if your buying a travel ticket at the same time. Most of the rest of the time on FGW you should have to pay.

 

[WCMLaddict]

I travel with Virgin on 2-3 return journeys a week so think I accumulated big enough pool of experiences

Almost every time (lets say 19 out of 20) when the reservations don't work, the train manager makes announcement and apologises for inconvenience. And again in roughly 95% of these situations the manager says that because of the failure to download seat reservations, they ask people to use any available seat and that the reservations are not going to be valid. Only once I can remember that the TM asked people to stick to reservations even without the screens working.
So as far as I'm concerned, if you listen to announcements you will know whether you should or should not give up your seat and there shouldn't be any confusion.

Having said all that, it is quite annoying how often the screens don't work.

 

[Jeni]

This may make me sound like a harsh person, but my take is this...

If I sit in a seat that isn't marked as reserved in any way, then I won't move. Yes, I feel sorry for the person that reserved it if they ask me to move, but it's not my fault that the TOC has made no attempt to reserve the seat for them, and I'm not going to keep getting shifted around because of their shortcomings.

The only exception I will make is if it's the starting station and the reservations haven't started showing yet, though I do feel the TOC should make more of an effort to display reservations before opening the doors! It's always a tough decision to make, get on early and not know which seats are available, or get on late and risk not getting a seat.

I always avoid sitting in reserved seats where I can, but where they are the only spare seats and I take one, I will always happily move with no fuss if the rightful occupant comes along.

Credit to XC though, 95% of my recent journeys with them have had working reservations, I usually use TMR so am rarely left without a seat.

On the TMR note, it used to be available on nearly every XC train between Birmingham and Manchester, recently however it's not been available on about 50% of services.

 

[Flamingo]

I had sombody recently who boarded before the train was prepped and announced, had to move himself and family off the table seat they had jumped into after the reservations were put out, and was demanding an apology and compensation for his "inconvenience" due to the "incompetence of the company".

I refused to give him either.

 

[yorkie]

That's a very fair point, but for all we know as passengers, maybe other empty seats are 'supposed' to be reserved as well.

So you turfed someone out of an unreserved seat, only for that person to potentially be turfed out at the next stop by someone who has the same views as you. And repeat that for every stop on the train.

Out of interest, how did you ask them, I'd be interested to hear how the conversation went.

 

[trainophile]

On the TMR note, it used to be available on nearly every XC train between Birmingham and Manchester, recently however it's not been available on about 50% of services.

What is TMR please?

(Incidentally I used the "search this thread" function entering both tmr and TMR and it found no matches, even though the acronym appears in the post I have partly quoted.)

 

[Jeni]

What is TMR please?

(Incidentally I used the "search this thread" function entering both tmr and TMR and it found no matches, even though the acronym appears in the post I have partly quoted.)

Sorry, my fault!

Ten Minute Reservations

 

[Mugby]

Didn't BR used to have a rule whereby if a reserved seat wasn't claimed within ten minutes (or something like that) of departure from the point of reservation, then that reservation was forfeited?

Am I correct, if so, is there still such a rule?

 

[Flamingo]

Didn't BR used to have a rule whereby if a reserved seat wasn't claimed within ten minutes (or something like that) of departure from the point of reservation, then that reservation was forfeited?

Am I correct, if so, is there still such a rule?

Grey area, I've never seen anything in writing, I always say after leaving the station, two or three minutes is a reasonable period for anyone to find their seat.

 

[Jeni]

Grey area, I've never seen anything in writing, I always say after leaving the station, two or three minutes is a reasonable period for anyone to find their seat.

Just out of interest, if I tried to turf you out four or five minutes after leaving, what would your reaction be?