Manchester - Scotland future services

[Philip]

Apologies if this has already been discussed but are the 350s still set to take over running this route via Chat Moss and Wigan this December?

What will happen to the existing hourly xx:00 from Manchester Airport which alternates between Glasgow, Edinburgh and Barrow via Bolton? Will the direct Barrow service be scrapped? There needs to be some form of replacement for this as the Manchester to Bolton and Chorley route is already running over capacity!

 

[Batman]

Apologies if this has already been discussed but are the 350s still set to take over running this route via Chat Moss and Wigan this December?

What will happen to the existing hourly xx:00 from Manchester Airport which alternates between Glasgow, Edinburgh and Barrow via Bolton? Will the direct Barrow service be scrapped? There needs to be some form of replacement for this as the Manchester to Bolton and Chorley route is already running over capacity!

I thought Manchester to Barrow was a separate hourly service from the Glasgow/Edinburgh service? I think there was some talk about that service being cut back to start/terminate at Preston, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen or not.

 

[PR1Berske]

Barrow is being ditched from the TPE network, I know that much.

 

[Batman]

Barrow is being ditched from the TPE network, I know that much.

I bet local politicians in South Cumbria won't be happy about that. Will that leave Barrow with just 1tph to Lancaster.

Will there be any peak extra through services to Manchester?

 

[PR1Berske]

I bet local politicians in South Cumbria won't be happy about that. Will that leave Barrow with just 1tph to Lancaster.

Will there be any peak extra through services to Manchester?

I believe Tim Farron (LD, Westmorland and Lonsdale) is lobbying on that basis.

 

[swt_passenger]

Barrow is being ditched from the TPE network, I know that much.

Not according to the track access application, although through services are pretty rare:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...T New TAC - consultation closed 29 March 2012

...includes various timetables valid from May 2014. EMU introduction is intended to happen gradually over a transitional period from December 2013

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Barrow is being ditched from the TPE network, I know that much.

Any idea why it was considered as part of the TPE involvement in the first place ? Was it anything to do with the strategic transport planning of that area ?

 

[northwichcat]

Barrow is being ditched from the TPE network, I know that much.

Barrow is to lose some direct northbound trains from Manchester and a southbound train will be diverted to Victoria. There are no plans at present for Barrow to lose all through services, only suggestions from people who don't actually make the decisions based on electrification plans.
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Any idea why it was considered as part of the TPE involvement in the first place ? Was it anything to do with the strategic transport planning of that area ?

It was a FNW route that was predominately class 175 operated and DfT wanted all the 175s to go to the Wales franchise, so they put the predominately class 175 operated routes that remained with FNW in to the TPE franchise which was due to get brand new stock.

 

[Philip]

Once the line through Bolton and Chorley is electrified it would make sense to put the Scotland services back on this route for capacity reasons - journey times between Manchester and Preston haven't been cut by running via Wigan (going off the projected timetable) and Wigan already has its existing Virgin Scottish services. Bolton always had a direct train to destinations north of Carlisle!

 

[tbtc]

Once the line through Bolton and Chorley is electrified it would make sense to put the Scotland services back on this route for capacity reasons - journey times between Manchester and Preston haven't been cut by running via Wigan (going off the projected timetable) and Wigan already has its existing Virgin Scottish services. Bolton always had a direct train to destinations north of Carlisle!

It'd be better use of capacity through Bolton to have more local services, rather than having the longer distance passengers fighting for seats with those only going twenty minutes. No guarantee that all of the Scottish services will stop at Wigan either, for similar reasons.

Expect Barrow to end up like Windermere - a token through service to Manchester but a shuttle for the majority of the day.

 

[gnolife]

It'd be better use of capacity through Bolton to have more local services, rather than having the longer distance passengers fighting for seats with those only going twenty minutes. No guarantee that all of the Scottish services will stop at Wigan either, for similar reasons.

Expect Barrow to end up like Windermere - a token through service to Manchester but a shuttle for the majority of the day.

Woukd that be a shuttle from Preston (to provide connections from Salford Crescent, Bolton and Chorley) or Lancaster though?

Or here's a thought - could it retain its current frequency of service by being tacked to a Blackpool North rather than a Glasgow Central train?

 

[PR1Berske]

I think there is a (general ) discussion to be had about what to do with Bolton, even if (or perhaps especially if) WCML services to Euston aren't about to be introduced anytime soon

As you say there's a capacity problem with passengers boarding TPE trains especially towards Lancashire and Cumbria, and particularly towards Manchester, and the solution to this is tied up with numerous alterations and aspirations.

 

[tbtc]

Woukd that be a shuttle from Preston (to provide connections from Salford Crescent, Bolton and Chorley) or Lancaster though?

Don't honestly know

Or here's a thought - could it retain its current frequency of service by being tacked to a Blackpool North rather than a Glasgow Central train?

The Blackpool service is going to be EMU run in a couple of years though, so that would only be a short term thing - nice idea though

 

[Philip]

It'd be better use of capacity through Bolton to have more local services, rather than having the longer distance passengers fighting for seats with those only going twenty minutes. No guarantee that all of the Scottish services will stop at Wigan either, for similar reasons.

Expect Barrow to end up like Windermere - a token through service to Manchester but a shuttle for the majority of the day.

Good point regarding the capacity issue but it also doesn't alter the fact that this large town has steadily been losing all the long distance services it used to have over the last decade. The Scottish service used to go southwards to South Coast via Birmingham, pretty sure there was even a HST London service operating sometime around 1995. Are there any plans for London trains to carry on north from Manchester in the new West Coast spec? (off topic)
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Don't honestly know



The Blackpool service is going to be EMU run in a couple of years though, so that would only be a short term thing - nice idea though

So can we assume 185s will soon become a thing of the past in Bolton, Preston and on the northern WCML?

 

[tbtc]

Are there any plans for London trains to carry on north from Manchester in the new West Coast spec? (off topic)

Both Virgin and First proposed Bolton - London services, but any WCML improvements are up in the air at the moment

So can we assume 185s will soon become a thing of the past in Bolton, Preston and on the northern WCML?

I know nothing. My guess would be yes (with the 185s moving to the Buxton line, the Calder Valley line, the Blackpool - York service extended to Scarborough and other middle distance routes in northern England once the Bolton and Huddersfield lines are electrified). But that's just a guess.

 

[IanXC]

I know nothing. My guess would be yes (with the 185s moving to the Buxton line, the Calder Valley line, the Blackpool - York service extended to Scarborough and other middle distance routes in northern England once the Bolton and Huddersfield lines are electrified). But that's just a guess.

The cascade of 185s released by the 350/4s has been confirmed though, they will be used for further an extra hourly TP North service, and for strengthening on other existing TP routes. The other locations you mentioned are speculation for the use of 185s cascaded from TP North electrification

 

[PR1Berske]

WCML extend Euston services to Bolton and Blackpool, say. Even with the current reworking of timetables and connected plans, that would cause squeezes at already tight pinchpoints. Something, as they say, will have to give.

 

[tbtc]

The cascade of 185s released by the 350/4s has been confirmed though, they will be used for further an extra hourly TP North service, and for strengthening on other existing TP routes. The other locations you mentioned are speculation for the use of 185s cascaded from TP North electrification

Yeah, in the short term they'll go to the Huddersfield line, but a couple of years later that'll be electrified and a decent number will be freed up (depending on whether Scarborough etc lose direct services to Manchester etc etc)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Depending on whether Scarborough etc lose direct services to Manchester etc etc

How important to Liverpool is the existing First TPE Liverpool to Scarborough sevice ? Will the loss of this be mitigated by the newly-proposed First TPE Liverpool to Newcastle service?

 

[Philip]

The cascade of 185s released by the 350/4s has been confirmed though, they will be used for further an extra hourly TP North service, and for strengthening on other existing TP routes. The other locations you mentioned are speculation for the use of 185s cascaded from TP North electrification

Come to think of it the obvious solution for capacity on the North West route would be to run most or all of the Blackpools as doubled up 185s. After the 185s are cascaded from the Scottish services, 5 or 6 would be needed for the new Liverpool-Newcastle and the other 3 or 4 could be used to strengthen the Blackpool service.

 

[northwichcat]

How important to Liverpool is the existing First TPE Liverpool to Scarborough sevice ? Will the loss of this be mitigated by the newly-proposed First TPE Liverpool to Newcastle service?

The Liverpool-Newcastle service will be non-stop between Liverpool and Manchester via Chat Moss so I think Warrington will be the most affected.

 

[gnolife]

The Liverpool-Newcastle service will be non-stop between Liverpool and Manchester via Chat Moss so I think Warrington will be the most affected.

How many people go between Warrington and Huddersfield/Leeds/York/Scarborough though? I can't imagine that it would be too many.

 

[ainsworth74]

Come to think of it the obvious solution for capacity on the North West route would be to run most or all of the Blackpools as doubled up 185s. After the 185s are cascaded from the Scottish services, 5 or 6 would be needed for the new Liverpool-Newcastle and the other 3 or 4 could be used to strengthen the Blackpool service.

TPE core Manchester - Leeds routes will eat up all the spare units I'd imagine. I'm not seeing them sending six car units out towards Blackpool any time soon.

 

[Philip]

Liverpool to Scarborough's via Warrington/Piccadilly are being shown as unchanged in the predicted May 14 timetable.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool to Scarborough's via Warrington/Piccadilly are being shown as unchanged in the predicted May 14 timetable.

The May 2014 timetable is probably the first of 3 major revisions we'll see on North TPE this decade.

TPE serving Warrington is likely to end once the Ordsall Chord is opened and Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds goes to 6tph.

Scarborough is likely to become a shuttle or get tagged on to another service post-electrification.
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How many people go between Warrington and Huddersfield/Leeds/York/Scarborough though? I can't imagine that it would be too many.

It'll mainly be the student population I imagine who make such a journey. Direct trains to Liverpool, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and York would certainly make universities in those places attractive to potential students from Warrington.

 

[Starmill]

The Liverpool-Newcastle service will be non-stop between Liverpool and Manchester via Chat Moss so I think Warrington will be the most affected.

What about poor little Birchwood!?
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TPE core Manchester - Leeds routes will eat up all the spare units I'd imagine. I'm not seeing them sending six car units out towards Blackpool any time soon.

Does the proliferation of six-car TPE services annoy nobody else? They might be a badly needed capacity improvement, but there is no bloody walkthrough!

 

[Philip]

TPE core Manchester - Leeds routes will eat up all the spare units I'd imagine. I'm not seeing them sending six car units out towards Blackpool any time soon.

We'll see. Perhaps having them all running as 6-car units is overstating it a bit but I'd be surprised if more of the peak time services aren't doubled up as the Manchester-Bolton-Chorley corridor is losing a service, unless a new service is introduced.

I'd expect the 16:29 and 17:29 departures from Manchester Airport to be strengthened, along with the 07:58 and 08:58 arrivals into Piccadilly, from Blackpool, at the very least. With Manchester to York is getting an extra hourly service, I'd have thought the priority for doubling up units would go to Blackpool and Sheffield/Cleethorpes.

 

[142056]

I know it would seem a little counter-productive, but could the 350s work in multiple with the 185s to divide en route as is currently the case, eg the 185 going to Barrow, the 350 to Glasgow/Edinburgh?
(I have no idea of how a DMU and an EMU work in multiple so forgive me if this wouldn't be possible)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One last thought appertaining to the earlier mention of the Scarborough service and a "shuttle" provision. Is a direct Leeds to Scarborough rail service as currently provided by those services using Class 185 units viewed as an essential aid to the tourism profile of Scarborough, as is the case currently performed by the direct Yorkshire Coastliner bus service from Leeds?

 

[brompton rail]

Before any extra 185s go to Blackpool, can we have them back on TPE South (Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes) please. TPE could put the displaced 170s in pairs onto Blackpool if they wish, and not as a single 2 car set on the busy 14.55 from Manchester Airport - full, standing and some both on arrival and departure at Sheffield (16.11) and even worse at Meadowhall last time I used it!