Do TOCs get penalties for shortformed trains

[Qwerty133]

Do TOCs get fined for running short-formed trains?
The reason I am asking this is because short-forming has become a regular occurrence (at least weekly (on a different day each week)) on a number of local EMT services since the December timetable change.

 

[northwichcat]

If they get funding from a local council or PTE for strengthening a service then they would be deducted part of that funding if they short form trains.

Otherwise I think they are free to use their carriages how they see fit.

 

[calc7]

Could you please identify the routes and how bad the crowding is? It is difficult to contribute when all we have to go on is your opinion.

 

[Qwerty133]

Could you please identify the routes and how bad the crowding is? It is difficult to contribute when all we have to go on is your opinion.

Route is Nottingham to Matlock mainly but also is happening on other emt local routes. There is still enough seats however the line often gets unbooked large groups which would cause overcrowding and it is a very seasonal line so If the short forming continued into the summer it would have a lot bigger effect.

 

[northwichcat]

There is still enough seats

If that's the case it's probably why the service in question is being 'short formed.'

It might be that passenger numbers have dropped and the extra carriages have been moved to another service where passenger numbers have grown.

Or it could be simply a short term measure to cover a higher than usual number of units being out-of-service or to cover a unit refresh/refurbishment program.

 

[Qwerty133]

If that's the case it's probably why the service in question is being 'short formed.'

It might be that passenger numbers have dropped and the extra carriages have been moved to another service where passenger numbers have grown.

Or it could be simply a short term measure to cover a higher than usual number of units being out-of-service or to cover a unit refresh/refurbishment program.

It's happening on average around once a week on a different day each time, the diagram that is 2x153 and is nearly always to cover a breakdown on the derby to Crewe, Ivanhoe or Nottingham to Skegness line.

 

[158801]

The TOC that I work for has something written into it's Franchise agreement.

Can't remember the exact figures but goes something like

1000 seats must be provided per day between A and B between the hours of 07:00 and 09:00

This doesn't all journeys but covers some of the major flows.

 

[D1009]

I was at Plymouth earlier today, and there was an announcement that as the 1554 service to Penzance was formed of 2 coaches rather than 3, passengers for Liskeard and Bodmin Parkway are strongly advised to join the coach outside the station to avoid undue overcrowding on the train. As it was a stopping train, I suspect the coach would have beaten the train. I think this is the first time I have seen a coach used to cover this eventuality.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Hang on, I'll just call EMT and let them know that it's ok to cancel the rest of the diagram when a unit breaks down, as long as the Nottingham - Matlock service can continue to operate with surplus capacity... :roll:

 

[Comstock]

In September, October and November I used the EMT Chesterfield to Manchester Oxford road service at 18.21 on a Friday. (I think the full route is Norwich to Liverpool)

You'd expect such a service to be busy, but this only had 2 coaches. There was barely room to stand, let alone sit. So it's not just the Matlock service that is leaving something to be desired.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes - they do get penalised.

 

[BestWestern]

It should be remembered of course that there is a network-wide train shortage, particularly of DMU stock which also causes big problems for Northern, among others.

Those affected by EMT's shortage can however take some comfort in the knowledge that it's sister SWT operation appears to have a permanent array of 158 and 159 sets sitting around idle at Salisbury depot every day of the week!!

 

[87015]

Yes - they do get penalised.

Does it vary TOC? We are only have to declare short forms counted on peak hour trains to/from the London terminus, anything outside of that doesn't matter although the DfT would probably come asking if it became a regular event.

 

[Qwerty133]

Hang on, I'll just call EMT and let them know that it's ok to cancel the rest of the diagram when a unit breaks down, as long as the Nottingham - Matlock service can continue to operate with surplus capacity... :roll:

If the units were maintained better and weren't sent out when they are already half broken (have heard conversations between drivers talking about what faults there units have at 8am(and a conductor said as the trains weren't purple and blue the DFT did them no favours to me.)

 

[ess]

When a train is short formed and it's physically impossible to board, it seems right to qualify for delay repay. Unfortunately you get nothing.

 

[Lewisham2221]

If the units were maintained better and weren't sent out when they are already half broken (have heard conversations between drivers talking about what faults there units have at 8am(and a conductor said as the trains weren't purple and blue the DFT did them no favours to me.)

If the DfT hadn't shafted EMT (and indeed other TOC's) by providing an insufficient amount of DMUs the situation might be a little better. But it isn't. It's easy to have a whinge about EMT, rightly so in some cases, but some things are pretty much out of their hands. If the service you're talking about still has sufficient capacity, when it's only a single dogbox, I fail to see what imposing a financial penalty would realistically achieve. Again, surely better to re-allocate one of the units, still leaving sufficient capacity on the Matlock-Nottingham route, than to cancel a diagram (due to lack of servicable rolling stock) on, say, the Crewe-Derby service - thus putting increased pressure, and providing insufficient capacity, on a service that already suffers with capacity issues.

 

[bunnahabhain]

If the DfT hadn't shafted EMT (and indeed other TOC's) by providing an insufficient amount of DMUs the situation might be a little better. But it isn't. It's easy to have a whinge about EMT, rightly so in some cases, but some things are pretty much out of their hands. If the service you're talking about still has sufficient capacity, when it's only a single dogbox, I fail to see what imposing a financial penalty would realistically achieve. Again, surely better to re-allocate one of the units, still leaving sufficient capacity on the Matlock-Nottingham route, than to cancel a diagram (due to lack of servicable rolling stock) on, say, the Crewe-Derby service - thus putting increased pressure, and providing insufficient capacity, on a service that already suffers with capacity issues.

Quoted for truth.

I have ridden around on Northern services formed of 3 car Class 158s with enough passengers to fill a Parry People Mover. EMT were done over by the DfT due to passenger numbers being miscalculated, the DfT admitted this, EMT received an additional 11 carriages (3 x 153 and 4 x 156) as a result. This enabled the most chronically overcrowded trains to be strengthened, a number of diagrams are still regularly full and standing, but this generally only happens at peak times now, rather than throughout the day, even when a service is short formed.

 

[northwichcat]

Quoted for truth.

I have ridden around on Northern services formed of 3 car Class 158s with enough passengers to fill a Parry People Mover. EMT were done over by the DfT due to passenger numbers being miscalculated, the DfT admitted this, EMT received an additional 11 carriages (3 x 153 and 4 x 156) as a result. This enabled the most chronically overcrowded trains to be strengthened, a number of diagrams are still regularly full and standing, but this generally only happens at peak times now, rather than throughout the day, even when a service is short formed.

EMT should have been given enough carriages to keep the same length of trains on Liverpool-Norwich that CT had.

However, Northern Rail do not have enough carriages. Any lightly loaded trains of at least 3 carriages in the Northern Rail area are usually either because the same diagram is much busier earlier/later in the day or because a swap has occurred and there's a very overcrowded Pacer on a Sprinter diagram somewhere else. Both these occurrences happen, in particular, on diesel services operating through Bradford.

The busiest part of Liverpool-Norwich is the Liverpool-Manchester section and if the EMT train is too full for passengers to board then they have to board the following Northern service instead, which itself is quite often formed of only 2 carriages.

 

[Lampshade]

I have ridden around on Northern services formed of 3 car Class 158s with enough passengers to fill a Parry People Mover.

Yep, and for every empty 158 there's a rammed 142.

 

[185]

In short (!!!!) if EMT ran a 153 on the Sheffield - London, they would not be penalised.

 

[Lewisham2221]

EMT should have been given enough carriages to keep the same length of trains on Liverpool-Norwich that CT had.

But they weren't. Other services see shorter trains than in CT days too and suffer as a result.

However, Northern Rail do not have enough carriages.

Neither do EMT.

 

[gnolife]

In short (!!!!) if EMT ran a 153 on the Sheffield - London, they would not be penalised.

Except for the delays that running a 75mph unit in place of a 125mph unit will cause

 

[northwichcat]

But they weren't. Other services see shorter trains than in CT days too and suffer as a result.

Carriages were removed because of out-of-date passenger numbers submitted for the Liverpool-Norwich route.

EMT didn't get 150s to use on routes like Crewe-Derby because of DfT looking at fleet consistency. The same reason why Liverpool-Norwich lost 170s.

Neither do EMT.

I didn't say they did. I was pointing out that Northern don't have enough carriages despite the claim that they have practically empty 3 car 158s.

I think on paper EMT have less of a shortage but in practice it means spare Intercity style carriages on Corby services while Crewe-Derby has a heaving 153 so isn't as simple as just moving a DMU from one depot to another.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The problem is in flexibility with having three different TOCs, London Midland services, for example from Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury have gone from a 1 or 2 carriage train, to a 3 or 4 carriage train, patronage has risen as a result. Conversely Crewe to Derby have gone from a 2 or 3 carriage train right down to almost always a 1 carriage train, with passenger numbers staying the same, resulting in a lot of trains running around running close to capacity mark during the middle of the day, which is roughly the same time that London Midland have units sat out at Tyseley inbetween peak services. CrossCountry are overcrowded and I believe Leicester to Birmingham is one of the most overcrowded routes in the country with peak time demand running at over 150% of capacity and rising.

 

[calc7]

The busiest part of Liverpool-Norwich is the Liverpool-Manchester section and if the EMT train is too full for passengers to board then they have to board the following Northern service instead, which itself is quite often formed of only 2 carriages.

And whilst the Northern service departs only 3 minutes later than the EMT, it arrives in Manchester (Oxford Road) only just ahead of the next express (TPE) departing a full 30 minutes later. It also offers a much less premium travelling experience.

I am aware of the Northern Liverpool LS - Manchester Airport via Newton-le-Willows semi-fast service, but this is of no use to people wanting to go to Warrington.

 

[northwichcat]

And whilst the Northern service departs only 3 minutes later than the EMT, it arrives in Manchester (Oxford Road) only just ahead of the next express (TPE) departing a full 30 minutes later. It also offers a much less premium travelling experience.

I am aware of the Northern Liverpool LS - Manchester Airport via Newton-le-Willows semi-fast service, but this is of no use to people wanting to go to Warrington.

The EMT service calls at South Parkway, Widnes and Warrington so if you're doing Liverpool-Widnes or Liverpool-Warrington, for instance, then the Northern service doesn't arrive just ahead of the following TPE one.

 

[Chrisgr31]

A question those on the 18:08 southern service from London Bridge to Uckfield might be asking these week, when on 3 out of 4 days so far its been 6 coaches instead of 8. Strangely the one night it was 8 was last night however yesterday the 16:08 and 19:08 were 2 coaches instead of 6.

As the 8 coach 18:08 is standing room only a 6 coach replacement doesnt stand a chance!

However as passengers we can console ourselves with the thought that these Class 191's are the most reliable modern diesel fleet in the country, which doesnt say much for the rest!

 

[CockneySparrow]

When a train is short formed and it's physically impossible to board, it seems right to qualify for delay repay. Unfortunately you get nothing.

Well your not going to get any money back, it would mean the TOC will be out of pocket as they can't claim the money back elsewhere like they do when trains are delayed or cancelled, when this happens NR gets a fine paid to the TOC and they pass it on

Yes you did read right when a TOC pays a passenger for a delayed train it comes out of the governments/tax payers coffers in a round about way