FCC, GroupSave, TVM and 'advance purchase'

[jon0844]

On Saturday, four of us wanted to go into London. Nice and simple; 4 Super Off-Peak travelcards with GroupSave.

Ticket office at Potters Bar was closed, so off to the TVM. Oh, no GroupSave offering. It's 4 tickets at £10 each = £40.00 please.

So, what to do? Board the train without any tickets (gates weren't manned either) and run the risk of meeting an RPI and winding up with four Byelaw 18 offences? Erm, no.

In the end, I opted to get four tickets with the Network Railcard discount (which I have) so instead of £5 each, I paid £6.60 each. Okay, only £1.60 more per ticket but still felt a little upset.

So, Twitter to the rescue! Here's my tweet to @First CC;

@FirstCC Why can't you buy group save tickets from a TVM? Potters Bar ticket office closed so £40 instead of £20. Thanks for nothing!!

(Exclamation marks added so as not to seem too rude! Also, I'd written that before realising that I could at least save something with the NSE discount)

The reply;

@jmcomms Hi, Group Save tickets are only available to buy in advanced I'm afraid.

@FirstCC Really? You can't buy on the day from a staffed station? When did that change - never bought groupsave anywhere but at a station!

@jmcomms You can buy from a staffed station which is classed as advanced, the ticket machines do not sell these though.

Seemed a bit odd and I figured I'd write in to FCC on Monday.

But, when we returned to Potters Bar I spoke to an RPI and he said that actually the software on one of the TVM types DOES do it - but I had no way of knowing that. He simply said 'use the one at the end' (nearest the car park) and actually told me to complain! He said it was totally unfair, and I'm inclined to agree.

So;

@FirstCC Just been told tonight by gateline staff that one of the TVMs at Potters Bar CAN do Groupsave! So, you just need to know which one!

@FirstCC The general public is unlikely to realise there's different software on different machines, so perhaps it should be standardised?

@jmcomms I will pass this feedback on to be looked into.

@FirstCC Thank you!

At this point, someone who used to be News Editor for our local paper joined in;

@jmcomms @FirstCC so a staffed station is 'advance', yet the ticket machine next to ticket office booth isn't? #madness

@christofflennon @FirstCC I remember it being almost six months before TVMs sold super off-peak tickets, so many people paid over the odds.

@jmcomms @FirstCC basically being charged a premium as opposed to queuing for ticket office. Not fair especially if ticket office shut

@christofflennon @FirstCC Whatever anyone (like ATOC) says, TVMs cannot ever replace staffed ticket windows, as they don't sell all tickets.

@christofflennon @FirstCC Imagine if we'd not bought the more expensive tickets, to try and buy at the destination, and met an RPI en route…

@christofflennon @FirstCC The FCC website says of GroupSave; "simply turn up at the station and go" firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/tickets-and-fa…

@jmcomms @FirstCC it's pretty clear on the website, it must be said. Nothing about 'ticket office only'...

At this point, FCC dropped out - but I thought it only fair to include them in the thread, even if it was clear they're not likely to comment further on the resulting subject matter!

Anyway - why is that FCC (and probably other TOCs) think it is okay to change the rules, mislead and simply not programme their ticket machines to sell tickets that they seem to heavily advertise? First it was impossible to get super off peak tickets from a TVM and now you need to hope that there's a working TVM running the right software to get GroupSave!

I can also confirm that having been to Hatfield today, you can indeed get GroupSave as an option when you select 3 or 4 people on applicable tickets. But only the newer style machines that seem to totally surround you - with the card reader on the left and the note/coin entry on the right - and the scrolling LED board above.

 

[clagmonster]

On Saturday, four of us wanted to go into London. Nice and simple; 4 Super Off-Peak travelcards with GroupSave.

Ticket office at Potters Bar was closed, so off to the TVM. Oh, no GroupSave offering. It's 4 tickets at £10 each = £40.00 please.

So, what to do? Board the train without any tickets (gates weren't manned either) and run the risk of meeting an RPI and winding up with four Byelaw 18 offences? Erm, no.

This is covered in the NRCoC:
"3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel."
http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf page 6

A Group Save discounted super cheap day travelcard from Potters Bar costs £5.00. Therefore, in this case I would 'purchase' 4 cheap day returns to New Southgate at £4.90 each and pay the excess of £0.10 per passenger at the first opportunity, so from a TTI or at the first staffed station I visited..

 

[yorkie]

A Group Save discounted super cheap day travelcard from Potters Bar costs £5.00. Therefore, in this case I would 'purchase' 4 cheap day returns to New Southgate at £4.90 each and pay the excess of £0.10 per passenger at the first opportunity, so from a TTI or at the first staffed station I visited..

Perhaps someone could write to FCC and confirm this is the correct procedure, and if so can they put up notices to this effect at stations?

I know people who have carried out this procedure on various TOCs, and have been told they should not have done this and instead bought the tickets at the first opportunity that the correct ticket was available.

The procedure seems to vary by TOC, and within some TOCs it varies by different staff.

As there seems to be no industry standard procedure in practice, that is why I advised bakerstreet in his thread to ask the relevant TOC for advice.

As for Twitter, it is disappointing that some of the people representing certain TOCs on Twitter give out incorrect information, such as FCC, Greater Anglia (to name two recent examples)! They'd be better off giving out no information than wrong information.

Yes, ticketing is a bit complex, but surely it's not that hard to train your staff... is it?!

 

[jon0844]

I should have asked the RPI at the gate what he'd have done if we'd not had tickets and wanted to get them 'at the first opportunity'.

I was aware of this right, but in FCC land you better be prepared for a whole lot of grief if you meet the wrong RPI!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This is covered in the NRCoC:
"3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel."
http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf page 6....

The thought occurs that if one of the machines can sell Groupsave tickets then they are available "at the station from which you intend to start your journey". I'm not sure where a Penalty Fare, based on this assertion, would actually stand legally, but taking a literal view, Condition 3 would not apply.

You might also have to consider what "an appropriate ticket" is, the words are not defined in the NRCoC.

This is just food for thought though, I wouldn't expect a Penalty Fare to stand on the basis of one ticket machine (among many) issuing the tickets required and the others not doing so, but we are talking about FCC.

 

[jon0844]

FCC has at least three different looking TVMs, although I bet Joe Public don't even notice the difference.

Theres one type that does seem to have newer software (it now adds tickets to a basket so you can go back and add more before paying) but that DOESN'T have GroupSave.

Then there's the type that was originally marked as the place to pick up pre-booked tickets, but also sells regular tickets (I'm not sure everyone realises this) and finally the big new machines that seem to have the same software and must be made by the same company. These DO do GroupSave, but at Potters Bar that machine is by the car park - on the other side of the railway line, not in the ticket hall.

I've said for some time that the software/user interface should be standard on these machines - just like Sky has one UI on every Sky box, whoever made it. Yes, you can add your own colour theme and logo - but I'd even argue that the user interface should be standardised throughout the UK railway system, perhaps with ATOC setting the standard for every TOC to adhere to.

Imagine someone who isn't that comfortable with using a ticket machine, and just about gets the hang of it and then finds that the next machine is totally different. That's just dumb.

 

[island]

At Paddington, another First station, a lot of the TVMs have homemade signs up saying they will not offer Network Railcard discounts.

 

[LexyBoy]

At Paddington, another First station, a lot of the TVMs have homemade signs up saying they will not offer Network Railcard discounts.

Apparently this is a known bug which is being looked into (I don't know how long for!) - other railcards including Gold Cards work fine. I think it may only be a problem with certain journeys.

 

[zoothorn]

I had had some discussion with FCC about a similar situation at Hertford North. Shortly afterwards official looking stickers appeared on the TVMs that do vend groupsave tickets. The particular problem with groupsave on TVMs to me is that it is only offered when you have selected the number of passengers to travel and unlike webtis sites does not appear as a discount that can be applied in the same way as railcards. It is therefore hidden until the very last moment of purchase when you are offered the full range of different price tickets available.

 

[LexyBoy]

The particular problem with groupsave on TVMs to me is that it is only offered when you have selected the number of passengers to travel and unlike webtis sites does not appear as a discount that can be applied in the same way as railcards. It is therefore hidden until the very last moment of purchase when you are offered the full range of different price tickets available.

I don't know how it's shown on these TVMs, but that seems like the logical way of doing it to me - after all it is only available for groups of 3 or 4 people.

Showing it as a railcard to be added by the user means it will be overlooked by anyone already unaware of GroupSave. Offering it to anyone buying 3 or 4 tickets (with a pop-up to advise that all passengers must travel together) would be more representative of how a ticket office would (should) sell GroupSave.

OTOH people buying their tickets seperately could be unaware of GroupSave, which is where showing it as a pseudo-railcard could be a benefit.

 

[jon0844]

You could offer Groupsave and then make it only possible to buy three or four tickets before going to pay.

But as it stands, offering the option after selecting 3 or 4 tickets works and is acceptable - if you use the right one!

Anyway, I've now sent an email to customer relations to see what they say on the matter.

Who knows, they might offer to give me my £6.40 overpayment back!

 

[jon0844]

As it's now 17th Feb and I contacted FCC on the 23rd (with an email to say they'd respond in 5 working days), I forgot to say that they did email me back at the end of last week.

Did they admit the error and arrange a refund? Erm, not yet. So far they're just asking for details of the exact timings of the Tweets to find out who it was that posted them.

Now that's all very good (even though I did say what day it was when I contacted them and cut and pasted the Tweets too) but regardless of what was said on Twitter, I'd have expected FCC would at least deal with the issue at hand - namely being out of pocket for not being able to buy the Groupsave tickets!

It doesn't really matter that much about who was responsible for giving the wrong information - the point is simply that the information was wrong and all their TVMs need to be updated to sell Groupsave tickets.

I'll probably find out that they're going to rapidly roll out an update so they can come back and say they did sell them after all.

 

[jon0844]

Still nothing from FCC. Have written again!

Incident - 19th January
Now - 6th March

Surely it's not that big an issue for FCC to deal with?!

 

[Drsatan]

Have you tried writing to Neal Lawson, managing director of FCC?

Anecdotal evidence suggests that writing directly to the managing director produces a more effective response than writing to the complaints department of the TOC you're complaining about.

There was an incident a couple of years ago when I was charged for an anytime day single from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria on a Gatwick Express service, after having produced an All Network Downlander which ought to be valid on a Gatwick Express service, given that's simply a trading name of Southern. After writing to the MD of Southern, enclosing the tickets I bought on the day, I received compensation (but not much in the way of an apology)

Sorry to bring the thread off topic

 

[jon0844]

I only email the big boys when something really serious happens - like when I was facing a prosecution from an idiot RPI that had let his new powers go to his head.

For this, I am happy to sit things out and see what happens. I have emailed again today, and got a response shortly after so I am happy to accept they simply forgot. I'll give it another week before escalating things. My 'loss' is only £7 or so.

Now if all that comes out of my complaint is a refund and no acknowledgement of a problem with TVMs then that might be cause to escalate things further too.

 

[island]

I think writing to the MD is normally the preserve of people who think they're too important/special to go through regular channels.

Excepted from this is when normal channels have failed or the matter is both important and urgent.

 

[jon0844]

No need to go to the MD.. I got this reply this morning, after my prodding yesterday;

Good Morning Mr Morris

Further to my previous email. Thank you for providing the required information about Twitter.

Having looked into your concerns about purchasing groupsave tickets from TVM’s. You are quite correct some machines will issue groupsave tickets (those supplied by a certain provider named Shere). Whilst those supplied by another provider S&B currently don't have this facility (they did have, but it had to be taken off due to a software fault). That said, with the next software upgrade which is due shortly, we should be able to again offer the facility. However, this will have to be tested before confirmation though.

That said, as you mention both types of machine are available at Potters Bar and the machines that do not offer groupsave should be clearly labelled. In view of your comments I have sent a message to Potters Bar to ensure this is done. So in future you should be able to purchase them there. I am sorry if this wasn’t clear to you at the time.

I have also passed your comments about the Twitter team to their line manager, who will be speaking with her team about this.

In view of your experience and by way of an apology, I have arranged for £10 worth of Rail Travel vouchers to be sent to you. If you could provide your preferred postal address these will be sent immediately.

Once again, please accept our apologies for letting you down in this way.

A good outcome I think. I even made a few quid, but more importantly - they've acknowledged the error, will do something about it and have confirmed a pending update to solve the issue.

So, well done FCC!

I also asked if FCC runs the Twitter in house or outsourced (as I believe some others are) and I've just been told it's run in house.