Daughter gave wrong address when travelling beyond destination on ticket (FCC)

[radarkit]

help !!!, my daughter bought a travel card to travel to earls court from Welywn covering zone 1-6 on a saturday, she returned on sunday and bought a ticket from earls court to welwyn. The ticket booth lady said it would be cheaper to buy a travel card which covered zones 1-6 so thats what she did, and as the journey on saturday had covered zone 1-6 my daughter didn't question it.

she was stopped by 2 ticket inspectors on the train . she showed them her ticket and the male inspector said it was not valid as the ticket was bought from an underground station, she argued that she had bought the ticket in good faith on the recommendation from the lady in the ticket booth, the inspector was aggressive and rude, and demanded she pay a fine she felt very intimidated and agreed to pay the fine, he then asked for her name and address, as she felt she had done nothing wrong and did not want to be associated with a crime she felt she had not committed,coupled with feeling scared and vulnerable at his unreasonably aggressive attitude, she gave a false name and address. he asked to see her student travel card before taking payment for the fine, checked her name and address, and saw that she had given him the wrong one, he then said she would be prosecuted and get a criminal record for giving him the wrong address. despite her protestations he took her ticket which was her proof and said he would staple it to his statement. The female ticket inspector three times tapped her male colleague on the shoulder and asked him to leave the girl alone, he did not and whilst his colleague walked away in disapproval he told my daughter she would be going to court and to await a postal summons

she is overcome with anxiety and grief about what might come of this.

 

[island]

Welcome to the forum. You're in the right place and we will try to help as much as possible. Part of that includes asking a few questions to establish the facts of the matter, so please bear with us and don't feel that you or your daughter are being accused of anything.

What ticket did your daughter have on Saturday? And when she was inspected on Sunday? If you don't know, then how much did she pay? Where was she spoken to by inspectors and how much did she pay to them?

Normally the next step here is a letter being sent out asking for a statement and her version of events.

I do need to point out that it is a criminal offence to give a false name or address in this situation irrespective of the reason for doing so.

 

[radarkit]

Thanks for your reply they were both travel cards and it was sunday morning at 10.30am that the ticket inspector was on the train at finsbury park. the ticket inspector originally asked for 20.00 which she agreed to pay out of fear more than anything as she already had what she thought was a valid ticket. however once he knew she had given him the wrong address he did not take the money and just said she would get a court summons.

 

[bb21]

For now, let's leave the attitude of the FCC RPI aside as it is more important for us to establish whether your daughter had a valid ticket for Sunday or not.

Would it be possible to upload an image of the ticket she was sold on Sunday?

Unfortunately I have to agree that providing a false address can lead to a criminal record if convicted.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm confused as to what the actual ticket she was travelling with on Sunday was. Please try to be as precise as possible.

Does she remember the exact price of the ticket she got from Earl's Court? (If she paid by card, you might be able to find this out from her bank)
Was this ticket railcard discounted?
Was the ticket for Sunday just a standard London-Underground-issued zones 1-6 Travelcard, or did it have extra validity to Welwyn?

Once we have determined the exact ticket she had, we'll be in a much better position to advise

 

[jon0844]

Am I right in thinking that the second ticket was JUST a Z1-6 Travelcard? If so, on a semi-fast service from FPK, the first stop would be Potters Bar and that's outside the zonal system (yet, ironically, valid on some buses there). So, the ticket wasn't valid. If a PF was offered, I think it would have been a wise move to pay it, or at least accept it and pay within the allotted time.

If Welwyn had been given as a destination when buying the ticket from London Underground, there might be a case to make a complaint (which, had the PF been paid could have had her claiming the cost of the PF for their error).

The problem is that regardless of the ticketing issue, there's a far more serious offence here - giving a false address.

FCC RPIs have to put up with this a lot (a really lot), especially with students at Hatfield that all seem to giggle as they quite blatantly give false details, and the RPIs clearly know but still have to waste their time trying them out.. I guess some people really don't appreciate that they're going to get into trouble for it, as if there's nothing someone on the railway can do about it as they're not police officers.

 

[maniacmartin]

Assuming the ticket was just a standard Zones 1-6 Travelcard:

If the OP's daughter was stopped at Finsbury Park then she would have still been in the zones and thus technically have a valid ticket, regardless of the next stop. If she then paid a £20 Penalty Fare to cover her to Welwyn before passing Hadley Wood, then she had a valid ticket at all times.

Of course an offence was still committed by failure to supply a correct address.

 

[bb21]

Assuming the ticket was just a standard Zones 1-6 Travelcard:

If the OP's daughter was stopped at Finsbury Park then she would have still been in the zones and thus technically have a valid ticket, regardless of the next stop. If she then paid a £20 Penalty Fare to cover her to Welwyn before passing Hadley Wood, then she had a valid ticket at all times.

Of course an offence was still committed by failure to supply a correct address.

Let's refrain from speculating and allow the OP to get back to us first.

There are many things that are unclear at the moment.

 

[jon0844]

If the OP's daughter was stopped at Finsbury Park then she would have still been in the zones and thus technically have a valid ticket, regardless of the next stop.

In my experience, RPIs won't even begin to check tickets (even if they boarded at KGX) until the train leaves Finsbury Park. So, the moment the doors close I guess that Z1-6 ticket is no longer valid, even though the train hasn't gone beyond Hadley Wood.

Let's refrain from speculating and allow the OP to get back to us first.

I think it's fair to speculate as I am not even sure they could sell a Travelcard from an Underground station to Welwyn? They can't do ticket extensions at most tube stations (as was my own situation with travelling from Old Street and wanting to get an extension on occasion - meaning I had to try and get my ticket at the destination, with mixed results), so I think it's safe to assume that the wrong ticket was purchased - but only the OP can say if the daughter had stated Welwyn as the destination or not - and the RPIs didn't start their check until the train had left FPK, as has always been my experience!

 

[bb21]

I think it's fair to speculate as I am not even sure they could sell a Travelcard from an Underground station to Welwyn? They can't do ticket extensions at most tube stations (as was my own situation with travelling from Old Street and wanting to get an extension on occasion - meaning I had to try and get my ticket at the destination, with mixed results), so I think it's safe to assume that the wrong ticket was purchased - but only the OP can say if the daughter had stated Welwyn as the destination or not - and the RPIs didn't start their check until the train had left FPK, as has always been my experience!

Some stations can issue extensions, that's for sure, which is the reason why I feel uneasy for us to potentially go off-track.

Without knowing exactly what ticket was sold there could be a whole host of possibilities. Are LU staff to blame? Possibly. Maybe the FCC RPI made a mistake? Also possible.

 

[jon0844]

Okay, I'll keep quiet until the OP responds!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . my daughter bought a travel card . . . .
. . . . she is overcome with anxiety and grief about what might come of this.

Another factor which might have a bearing on the outcome is her age. Is she much under 18 or is she 18 or over?

And another factor would be any previously recorded incidents (which as a parent I understand might have to be a matter of faith).

Okay, I'll keep quiet until the OP responds!

I'm so pleased that only a few of us feel the compulsion to announce our silences, and to do so with such a global reach. Otherwise, internet fora would be even more of a cacophony saying nothing than it now is.

 

[jon0844]

I'm so pleased that only a few of us feel the compulsion to announce our silences, and to do so with such a global reach. Otherwise, internet fora would be even more of a cacophony saying nothing than it now is.

Did you really need to say that?! And me this?

 

[RJ]

I'd also like the OP to confirm the cost of the tickets purchased by their daughter.

London Underground can issue Travelcards with a return trip to a station outside of the zones all on one coupon.

 

[bb21]

Okay, I'll keep quiet until the OP responds!

Don't get me wrong. My intention is not to tell you to be quiet.

From the way the OP described the incident, I get the feeling that even the OP is a little unsure exactly what ticket his/her daughter was sold without looking into it further. Therefore I think it would help the OP if we don't start discussing the numerous scenarios that could have been (which could depend on what ticket it is and where she was challenged, as already identified, amongst other factors), as there could be quite a few. Once we are a little clearer as to what ticket she was actually sold (or likely to have been sold), we could then be a little more specific in the help we offer the OP. If we end up down this route, I fear that the OP could be confused quickly, which has happened before in some threads. Hence my earlier request.

If anyone has important information for the OP, feel free to contribute, just like in all the other threads. My apologies if I was not clear.

 

[A60K]

I wonder if the ticket clerk at Earl's Court misheard, and thought the destination was 'Welling' in south east London, which is within the zones. I've had first hand experience of that verbal confusion, with a comic argument developing.

However, it's zone 4 so there wouldn't be any need for the zones 1 to 6 Travelcard.

 

[MikeWh]

I wonder if the ticket clerk at Earl's Court misheard, and thought the destination was 'Welling' in south east London, which is within the zones. I've had first hand experience of that verbal confusion, with a comic argument developing.

However, it's zone 4 so there wouldn't be any need for the zones 1 to 6 Travelcard.

I must admit that I thought that too. If the student card refered to in the OP is a 16-25 railcard then zone 4 is irrelevant as the cheapest discounted travelcard is zones 1-6.

Now, forgive me for speculating, but something else is concerning me about this scenario. It won't help the OP, but might help others who see this before travelling. Was the journey simply Welwyn to Earls Court one day and return the next? If it was then the travelcard was overkill. For an adult the difference between a single to London termnals and a travelcard including travel from Welwyn is £7.10. The tube single fare is only £4.50, or £2.10 with an Oyster card.

 

[radarkit]

hello

It was a travel card covering zones 1-6 that she was sold however the inspector said that although you can buy this from an overground to an underground, you cannot do it in reverse so apparently the ticket she was sold from earls court to welwyn only covered the underground zones 1 -6, . She wanted to keep her ticket as evidence that she had paid but he insisted on taking it and said he would staple and submit it with his report, so I guess it is just a waiting game now.
she is training to be a teacher and did not want to give her address as she was frightened by his aggressive nature did not want to be implicated in a crime she felt she had not committed.
its the agonising thought that she may now get a criminal record for giving the wrong address. i find the injustice of the whole affair quite shocking. lets just hope the inspector is honest enough to have submitted her ticket with his report.

 

[island]

Let's be clear. Your daughter had committed an offence by travelling beyond the area covered by a ticket. That is a strict liability offence under section 18 of the Railway Byelaws and does not require any intent. It does not result in a criminal record, but the more serious offence of failing to give a true name and address can.

Next question then is whether your daughter asked at Earls Court for a ticket to "Welwyn Garden City" or just "Welwyn". Or did she use a self-service machine? And can you confirm the price paid for the ticket on Sunday, which I suspect might be £5.90?

 

[radarkit]

she asked for a single ticket to welwyn and the lady in the ticket booth said it would be cheaper if she bought a travel card.
although she is innocent in that she was sold the wrong ticket, she was prepared to pay the inspector the fine, he refused to take it clearly wanting to make it as awful as he could for her. From her description his aggression was very intimidating. he gave her no paperwork at all, is that right?

 

[jon0844]

Was she definitely offered a penalty fare (not fine) or did she just say she would pay it and get upset when they refused?

I've questioned some of the actions of FCC RPIs but they've never been aggressive. In fact, perhaps if they were then you'd have some argument against them. They're usually very polite, but firm, when dealing with people.

That said, once false details were given then I can perhaps see why the mood changed. I'd be somewhat annoyed too.

 

[radarkit]

the ticket she bought was 8.90 off peak ticket (she was travelling on a sunday and the fine she was asked to pay was 20.00

 

[wintonian]

and the fine she was asked to pay was 20.00

Can I just point out for clarity that this is a penalty fare, i.e. one that is charged when an honest mistake has been made, fines on the other hand can only be handed out by a court of law.

 

[island]

This is all rather messy. I don't know if there is any destination from Earls Court to which a Travelcard is cheaper than a single ticket. Something doesn't quite add up here, and I am unsure what it is.

Did your daughter not think to query what she was being offered when it was so much cheaper than the previous day?

 

[bb21]

she asked for a single ticket to welwyn and the lady in the ticket booth said it would be cheaper if she bought a travel card.
although she is innocent in that she was sold the wrong ticket, she was prepared to pay the inspector the fine, he refused to take it clearly wanting to make it as awful as he could for her. From her description his aggression was very intimidating. he gave her no paperwork at all, is that right?

IF she asked for Welwyn and not Welwyn Garden City, as already pointed out, this could have been misinterpreted as Welling in South East London, in which case she was sold a valid ticket - a Zones 1-6 Travelcard - if she pronounced it in the same way I do.

This might sound harsh but did alarm bells not start ringing when she was asked for £8.90 rather than £13?

If that is what happened, then unfortunately I think she only has herself to blame.

 

[island]

A single from Earls Court to Welling is £6.40, which isn't cheaper than a Travelcard. And if the ticket sold was £8.90, it was an undiscounted 1-6 Travelcard. For Welling, a 1-4 at £8 would have done.

Something is still not right.

 

[Flamingo]

Not that this is in any way meant to reflect on the OP's daughter, but I find that female passengers of the late teens-early twenties are amongst the most difficult to deal with, as they can be very aggressive and indignant at being questioned, but pretty much without exception claim that the person dealing with them was rude, aggressive, intimidating, bullying, officious and they were a "lone vulnerable female" who made an honest mistake.

I've had them screaming abuse and threats, and then at the first sign of BTP collapse into tears and claim I was making the whole thing up.

All staff of my acquaintance are VERY careful when dealing with females of this age due to the unwarranted allegations of improper behavior that are invariably brought - I would be very surprised if the staff were unaware of this, and behaved in an improper manner. Personally, I have been known to ask another member of staff to act as a witness.

If somebody has been caught, it's an everyday occurrence for revenue staff, they have no more reason to act in an aggressive manner than a traffic warden ticketing a car - you deal with it and move on to the next one, it's all in a days work.

(If intimidating means "did not believe the story and said so", then they may have been).

 

[bb21]

A single from Earls Court to Welling is £6.40, which isn't cheaper than a Travelcard. And if the ticket sold was £8.90, it was an undiscounted 1-6 Travelcard. For Welling, a 1-4 at £8 would have done.

Something is still not right.

A single to some Zone 6 stations such as Barnehurst (£9) would cost more than the Travelcard, but I agree, a single to Welling (£6.70) is less than that and indeed should have seen a Zones 1-4 Travelcard sold if so.

 

[maniacmartin]

Since the Penalty Fare of £20 has been paid, I'm not sure it matters any more whether the ticket was valid, as she has paid the fare due. I would focus on issue of the false name and address

 

[bb21]

Since the Penalty Fare of £20 has been paid, I'm not sure it matters any more whether the ticket was valid, as she has paid the fare due. I would focus on issue of the false name and address

She hasn't paid the Penalty Fare though. Before she had had a chance to do so, the option to pay it was withdrawn if I read the OP correctly.