377/6

[Class377/5]

With a possible extra 150 carriages. Plus the 377/6s are a bit different as they're effectively a 379 with 377 computing ect

But the new order doesn't have to be compatible long term with the 377's unlike the 377/6. The 375/376/377/377 can couple but yet have different classes, why not these.

 

[D365]

If the 116+140 is to allow 319s to be released, refurbed and reused, then they will most likely end up as another Electrostar variant for ease of use on Thameslink and potentially Southern region in the future.

 

[Class377/5]

If the 116+150 is to allow 319s to be released, refurbed and reused, then they will most likely end up as 377/7s for ease of use on Thameslink and potentially Southern region in the future.

But they won't be needed long term. Apart from the fact it's officially been mentioned that the units could go to TPE or future EMT services, once the full class 700 fleet is in service then there will be a surplus of rolling stock as most of the Thameslink work is replacing current services not creating new ones.

If anything, if Siemens won the bid it would make more sense to send them to SWT for use as on the soon to be dual voltage routes it runs current (and may run more).

 

[D365]

But they won't be needed long term. Apart from the fact it's officially been mentioned that the units could go to TPE or future EMT services, once the full class 700 fleet is in service then there will be a surplus of rolling stock as most of the Thameslink work is replacing current services not creating new ones.

If anything, if Siemens won the bid it would make more sense to send them to SWT for use as on the soon to be dual voltage routes it runs current (and may run more).

If for Thameslink, Siemens won't win the 116+140 as the 350/450 Desiro UK isn't cleared - although the Desiro City will be obviously.

Post-700, a bunch more 377s may be useful for directly or indirectly replacing Classes 313, 442 and/or 455.

 

[Class377/5]

If for Thameslink, Siemens won't win the 116+150 as the 350/450 Desiro UK isn't cleared - although the Desiro City will be obviously.

A 377/7 will come in good timing for directly or indirectly replacing Classes 313, 442, 455, perhaps.

Why do you assume that Siemens would offer a 350/450? You do realise the 700/Desiro City isn't cleared. Siemens could get the new design cleared with a Desiro City/450/350 mash up that clears the 700 and saves time in the final roll out of the 700's.

You seem to forget that anything offical has stated the new order won't run on Southern (apart from Thameslink duties) so assuming it will replace the 313, 442 or 455 is foolish.

 

[D365]

Why do you assume that Siemens would offer a 350/450? You do realise the 700/Desiro City isn't cleared. Siemens could get the new design cleared with a Desiro City/450/350 mash up that clears the 700 and saves time in the final roll out of the 700's.

You seem to forget that anything offical has stated the new order won't run on Southern (apart from Thameslink duties) so assuming it will replace the 313, 442 or 455 is foolish.

The point of the 116+140 is to allow 319s to be released as soon as possible. Introducing anything other than a 377 will require more time to clear, train drivers etc. and will obviously be incompatible with the existing/that remaining 319/377 fleet.

If for Thameslink, Siemens won't win the 116+140 as the 350/450 Desiro UK isn't cleared - although the Desiro City will be obviously.

Post-700, a bunch more 377s may be useful for directly or indirectly replacing Classes 313, 442 and/or 455.

 

[Class377/5]

The point of the 116+150 is to allow 319s to be released as soon as possible. Introducing anything other than a 377 will require more time to clear, train drivers etc. and will obviously be incompatible with the existing/that remaining 319/377 fleet.

Partially yes but using a modified 700 design means the 700 can come in quicker so your training point is less valid. Note that the 116+256 carriage order doesn't release every 319 but they will only completely go with the 700 fleet. So again your point is mute. The 319/377 are incompatible with each other and he 700 yet that's not stopping them being used.

Wait and see.

 

[RobShipway]

I can see them as stated going to First Trans Penine, but I can also see the class 377/6 going to the GWML as yjere is quite often between Reading - London Paddington several 2 car + 3 car 165/166 trains operating which would mean the the 377/6 are replacing like for like. With regards South West Trains, they all ready have dual voltage trains in the shape of the 450, 444. Question I have is, will the 458/5's as part of their rebuild can they be converted to AC with space for a pantograph to be provided?

 

[tsr]

Question I have is, will the 458/5's as part of their rebuild can they be converted to AC with space for a pantograph to be provided?

As far as I know, yes, but do not quote me on it! If I'm wrong, someone will be along to correct me, I'm sure!

 

[hwl]

With regards South West Trains, they all ready have dual voltage trains in the shape of the 450, 444. Question I have is, will the 458/5's as part of their rebuild can they be converted to AC with space for a pantograph to be provided?

458s already have a pantograph well.

The 460 don't however so the question is what will happen with the extra 458 units made up out of 460 carriages.

 

[Class377/5]

I can see them as stated going to First Trans Penine, but I can also see the class 377/6 going to the GWML as yjere is quite often between Reading - London Paddington several 2 car + 3 car 165/166 trains operating which would mean the the 377/6 are replacing like for like. With regards South West Trains, they all ready have dual voltage trains in the shape of the 450, 444. Question I have is, will the 458/5's as part of their rebuild can they be converted to AC with space for a pantograph to be provided?

The 377/6 are a franchise agreement to provide longer trains on Southern. They aren't going anywhere. Southern is moving to 10 car metro via Balham and Sydenham corridor with Tulse Hill trains being 8 cars and services outside London up to 12 cars.

 

[starrymarkb]

If for Thameslink, Siemens won't win the 116+150 as the 350/450 Desiro UK isn't cleared - although the Desiro City will be obviously.

Is it possible that they haven't been cleared because no-one has needed to send one through Thameslink? In a lot of cases lack of clearance for stock is a paperwork issue as no-one has bothered to check!

For example a 333 could travel to Penzance for obscure and very unlikely reasons. There is a fairly good chance it wouldn't hit anything but why go to the time and expense of checking when there is no reason for it to do that trip and it wouldn't be able to do it under it's own power.

 

[D6975]

Courtesy of Sparkyscrum on wnxx.

DMSO (A) - 70101-70126
MSO - 70201-70226
TSO - 70301-70326
MSO - 70401-70426
DMSO (B) - 70501-70526

Rumours also that the additional five units will either be 377/7s or 377/5s.

Thanks for those.

If they are going to all be 377/6s, then the sensible thing would be to number the dual voltage ones from 699 down. Still the same series, but obvious which ones are dual voltage.

Hold on a minute - sensible and privatised railways.....

 

[D365]

If for Thameslink, Siemens won't win the 116+150 as the 350/450 Desiro UK isn't cleared - although the Desiro City will be obviously.

Is it possible that they haven't been cleared because no-one has needed to send one through Thameslink? In a lot of cases lack of clearance for stock is a paperwork issue as no-one has bothered to check!

For example a 333 could travel to Penzance for obscure and very unlikely reasons. There is a fairly good chance it wouldn't hit anything but why go to the time and expense of checking when there is no reason for it to do that trip and it wouldn't be able to do it under it's own power.

Sorry, I don't understand what point you're trying to make. :/

Courtesy of Sparkyscrum on wnxx.

DMSO (A) - 70101-70126
MSO - 70201-70226
TSO - 70301-70326
MSO - 70401-70426
DMSO (B) - 70501-70526

Rumours also that the additional five units will either be 377/7s or 377/5s.

Thanks for those.

If they are going to all be 377/6s, then the sensible thing would be to number the dual voltage ones from 699 down. Still the same series, but obvious which ones are dual voltage.

Hold on a minute - sensible and privatised railways.....

All these empty numbers, really russells my jimmies!

So again your point is mute...

The word you actually need is 'moot'... 'Mute' means unable to speak...

Who knows what's going through his head! Although, that point is pretty insignificant in regards to the flow of this debate.

 

[swt_passenger]

So again your point is mute...

The word you actually need is 'moot'... 'Mute' means unable to speak...

 

[Class377/5]

The word you actually need is 'moot'... 'Mute' means unable to speak...

I'm Dyslexic so do get spelling wrong. But hey isn't that the level of this forum to attack anything they can?

Is it possible that they haven't been cleared because no-one has needed to send one through Thameslink? In a lot of cases lack of clearance for stock is a paperwork issue as no-one has bothered to check!

For example a 333 could travel to Penzance for obscure and very unlikely reasons. There is a fairly good chance it wouldn't hit anything but why go to the time and expense of checking when there is no reason for it to do that trip and it wouldn't be able to do it under it's own power.

The 350/1 took five weeks to clear from WCML through to East Croydon with a push on Network Rail. Doubt getting acceptance on current design is going to take a few months, not difficult is it.

 

[Chris125]

If for Thameslink, Siemens won't win the 116+150 as the 350/450 Desiro UK isn't cleared - although the Desiro City will be obviously.

Not only has there been no need to clear them, but they aren't available anyway as the design doesn't meet the latest regulations - any new order would be a variation on the Desiro City.

Chris

 

[Wath Yard]

The DfT, and let's not kid ourselves it is the DfT behind this order, isn't going to order Desiro City units which are only being ordered because an order for Desiro City units still hasn't been signed after 18 months. Even the DfT couldn't make itself that much of a laughing stock.

 

[Class377/5]

The 8 five car units have been renumbered to 377701-708 according to Today's Railway.

 

[D365]

For Peter's Sake, so many numbers are being wasted this way... Should be 377 692-699. I know I'm somewhat perfectionistic but come on!

 

[TEW]

I'd say it makes sense for the 377/6s and 377/7s to be separate sub classes. The 377/2s and 377/5s should have been the same and the 377/4s should just have ran on from the 377/1s, but the /2s and /3s were obviously in the way by then.

 

[D365]

All 377s can be retrofitted with OHLE, if not already. If the 377/6s (26x5) are in the future, where would that leave them in relation to the presumably identical 377/7 (8x5 DV)?

 

[Class377/5]

The 377/5 should have been 377216-238.

That would have allowed for logical five cars to be 377/5. After all 377/2 makes sense with two power systems, 377/3 for three cars.

The 377/1 and 377/4 batches would have stayed as they wouldn't all if not the 377/1 with 139 units to fit in. Unless they had used 377/0 like the 450's did.

Bottom line is this is what you get for piecemeal ordering without an overall plan.

 

[jopsuk]

hah, there's been almost no "logical" number systems used since privitisation- and even pre-privitisation any logical schemes had started to break down (after all, there's no reason at all for the 322s not to be a sub class of 321s other than Stansted wanted a "different" class for Stansted Skytrain)

 

[TEW]

The 377/1 and 377/4 batches would have stayed as they wouldn't all if not the 377/1 with 139 units to fit in. Unless they had used 377/0 like the 450's did.

If they'd been ordered at the same time they could have just ran over one hundred like you said, so 377001-377139 or it could have been 101-239. The latest 377s also mean there is reuse of subclasses within the third rail electrostars. Previously the 375s had /6-/9.

 

[D6975]

All 377s can be retrofitted with OHLE, if not already. If the 377/6s (26x5) are in the future, where would that leave them in relation to the presumably identical 377/7 (8x5 DV)?

They'll probably renumber them..

What is it with the southern region? They've had a fetish for renumbering units for quite a while which privatisation doesn't seem to have lessened.

 

[jopsuk]

If it was at all consistent, the 377s would all be 375s, 317 of them at present (of which 38 are 3 car) (with 34 five car to come to come).

But the 37x range really is a mess. 370 was a (domestic) High Speed unit, 371 was allocated for Thameslink Networkers and 373 are Eurostars. Meanwhile 375 and 377 are the same class of Electrostar (and sort of what classes 371 and 381 were to be), 376 is a Metro variant Electrostar, 378 is a newer version of 376 and 379 is an AC-only Electrostar version 1.5.

 

[TEW]

If it was at all consistent, the 377s would all be 375s, 317 of them at present (of which 38 are 3 car) (with 34 five car to come to come).

I'd say it's the other way round, the 375s should be 377s. The early 377s were 375s but were renumbered 377s when they had couplers changed to Dellners, but the 375s on SouthEastern were never renumbered.

 

[ert47]

There are some cosmetic differences between the 375s and 377s units. The 377 have external CCTV with in cab monitors for one, but not sure what other differences there are. Could software be the reason behind the split?

There are 2 different types of head lights within the 375s/377s, are these reason to have a different subclass?

 

[MCR247]

No because some /1s have older lights, whilst others have the LEDs