I see why many people try and get away without paying the correct fare.

[Solent&Wessex]

There is often much quoted about "the nasty ticket man" and people being caught out, but I can see why people try and do it.

2 weeks ago I travelled one Saturday afternoon from Keighley to Ribblehead. The Guard came down checking tickets after Keighley, but only asked if people wanted to buy tickets, and never really looked at the tickets we showed him, merely seeing something orange and ticket shaped and carrying on. Despite lots of people getting on at Skipton, and on and off at Settle, no further attempt was made to leave the back cab before I got off at Ribblehead. After a few beers we headed back to Settle, and a ticket check was carried out. We returned to Skipton on the last train at 2114, which picked up lots of folk in Settle seemingly going into Skipton for a late night. The Guard made no attempt to come and check or sell tickets to those people. We then travelled on a very quiet train from Skipton to Keighley, and sat at the back. The Guard did nothing apart from the doors and made no effort to do tickets. I could have got away with paying a Ribblehead to Settle single.

Last Wednesday I went from Keighley to London and back. I travelled - Keighley to Leeds on Northern - no ticket check. Without passing through the barriers I then went Leeds to Doncaster on East Coast - no ticket check. Doncaster to London on Hull Trains - thorough ticket examination after every stop. I then used a Travelcard to travel around London, mainly on surburban rail services. During the whole day the ticket was never checked manually and I never saw any inspectors anywhere. At most of the surburban stations we passed through the ticket gates were locked open. I returned via the reverse of the above - Hull Trains full ticket check after Kings Cross but nothing later on for the passengers who joined en route. Doncaster to Leeds on East Coast - no ticket check. Leeds to Keighley on Northern - no ticket check. I needn't have bothered to buy a ticket for Keighley to Doncaster.

On Saturday I went from Keighley to London on the direct East Coast service. Full ticket check after Leeds, but nothing else for the rest of the journey in my carriage - so the folk who joined en route never had their ticket checked. At Kings Cross the gates were locked open. I then went to Salisbury on South West Trains. Full ticket check after Clapham Junction, but nothing in my carriage for the rest of the journey, so folk who joined en route never had their ticket checked. The gates were in use at Salisbury however, and were manned by a particularly efficient person who was making everyone put the tickets in the gates properly.

On Sunday I travelled Salisbury to Westbury on SWT and despite the gates being locked open at Salisbury I actually had the ticket checked en route. I then went from Westbury to Paddington on FGW - no ticket check or sign of the Guard at any point on the journey. I exited via the footbridge towards the Hammersmith & City Line platforms, and the gates were locked open. First Hull Trains were very thorough after Kings Cross, but again no check between Doncaster and Leeds on East Coast. I had to exit through the barriers at Leeds to join a replacement bus to Shipley. I used one of the wide gates, which were locked open and the "gating assistance" staff who were meant to be there were all congregated near the middle leaning on some other gates and chatting to each other. So not much use in having the gates really. I then boarded a replacement bus without having my ticket checked. At Shipley I boarded a train which was starting there, and was fairly quiet. The Guard made no effort to come and check tickets.

So, all in all, I could have saved myself some money. I was using a variety of PRIV and public rate Advance fares (which ever was cheaper for the journey), and had a valid ticket for all my journeys, but had I been so inclined I could have saved quite a bit of money, and if I was a regular passenger on those routes I could see this regularly I know what I would be trying to do! I must also state that none of the trains I would deem so full that tickets could not be checked.

 

[Goatboy]

So, all in all, I could have saved myself some money.

No, you could have travelled on a service without paying for it. Sure, it 'saves you money' but only in the same way that walking out of Tesco with a loaf of bread 'saves you money' if there is nobody stood in the door physically babysitting you to double check you are not a lowlife.

You bought a ticket to get from A to B and you got from A to B. Why does it matter to you personally whether its checked or not? Travel on the tram in Dublin and your ticket will not be checked as a matter of course either, ditto on the Berlin S-Bahn system. Would you 'save money' on those without paying as well?

This sort of logic really annoys me. You buy a ticket to travel, you don't buy a ticket to pass a ticket check.

The only way you could have 'saved money' is to have not travelled. As a guard yourself your viewpoint is something I find even more amazing.

 

[maniacmartin]

Regarding some of the intermediate stations, it is quite possible that those stations had gatelines running so the only passengers who would be able to board without their tickets being checked were those who were interchanging.

I have noticed an assumption that all intercity passengers are going to and from London, and the way the tickets are checked reflects this.

I can see your frustration though, especially since the revenue shortfall is made up by the taxpayer.

 

[Goatboy]

I can see your frustration though, especially since the revenue shortfall is made up by the taxpayer.

This is the valid criticism. The problem is 'The guard didn't check, people will have evaded the fare which we all pay for' NOT 'The guard didnt check, I could have saved money'.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I must stress that I always have a valid ticket, and as a member of railway staff involved in checking and selling tickets on trains I do understand some of the issues involved and the reasons why checks might not take place, but, as I am always down my train checking and selling tickets (ie doing my job) it does get my wick when nothing happens and there is no obvious reason why.

What I was getting at in the original post is that normal members of the public take a different view, and with ticket checks being so irregular, you can understand why people try and get away with it so often - whether it is not paying at all, or just buying a cheap ticket (railcard / child etc) to work the gates and see what happens on the rare occasion someone might spot it.

I know someone who does a commute from Keighley to Castleford, and despite my insistence that they are breaking the law, they never buy a ticket unless challenged, which they reckon is about once a week, if that.

 

[Ferret]

It's laughable really, lots of talk of how the railways could lower costs - well erm, I know it's stating the obvious a little, but how about collecting the revenue that's there to be collected?! Surely that is by the back door, a cost?

 

[Oswyntail]

What matters is not that tickets are or are not checked on a particular service. What matters is that passengers know that tickets may well be checked on any service, with whatever consequence for non-payment. What defeats the system is when it is known that tickets are never checked properly on a given service (such as post-rush hour Leeds to Ilkley!). After all, the police do not protect my house from burglars by checking up on it every time it is empty - they do so by occasional patrols and a level of efficiency that suggests burglars will be caught and punished. (Well, that's the theory)

 

[maniacmartin]

Surely, if the figures indicate that guards aren't making that much revenue, and that hardly any tickets (and thus passengers) went on certain stretches of lines, that will be used by the powers that be as further justification to roll out DOO, make guards non-commercial or close lines entirely?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

What matters is not that tickets are or are not checked on a particular service. What matters is that passengers know that tickets may well be checked on any service, with whatever consequence for non-payment. What defeats the system is when it is known that tickets are never checked properly on a given service (such as post-rush hour Leeds to Ilkley!). After all, the police do not protect my house from burglars by checking up on it every time it is empty - they do so by occasional patrols and a level of efficiency that suggests burglars will be caught and punished. (Well, that's the theory)

Agreed, and sadly there are too many of these services where people know they can get a free ride.

And it is these situations which cause problems for staff when ticket checks do take place. Although I must say when I do checks between Bolton and Manchester I think people are so shocked they pay up out of shock!

 

[Buttsy]

I do find it odd that people in general think train journeys can be 'free' by avoiding paying for a ticket when they would never consider driving away from a filling station without paying for fuel.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Rather than simply looking at it as a "pay or don't pay" example, it could be looked at from the "break the law or comply with the law" angle. People know that there's a very good chance of getting caught and prosecuted for shoplifting. Therefore it tends to be only the minority of lowlife types that do it. How many people do you see travelling on the roads, in excess of the legal speed limit, slowing down for GATSO cameras? Lots. People do this because they know they are likely to get away with it. How many people have at some point "saved money" by (illegally) downloading a film/album/game etc rather than buying it from a shop? Many. Why? Because they could get away with it. Whether it's morally or legally wrong or right, people will almost always push the limits as far as possible. If you go for a meal and the waiter/ess misses something off the bill, do you, honestly, always own up? If you knew that you could regularly travel from Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester and return, with little chance of needing to prove that you've paid a fare, it's very easy to see why people may choose to try. A shop, such as Tesco, goes to some effort to prevent people shoplifting; security guards, CCTV, security tags and alarms. The railways, all too often, go to precious little effort to protect their revenue.

 

[Ediswan]

I do find it odd that people in general think train journeys can be 'free' by avoiding paying for a ticket when they would never consider driving away from a filling station without paying for fuel.

It does not surprise me at all.

On a similar theme to a previous post, fare evasion shares a key characteristic with software/download 'piracy'. There is no physical product involved. In both cases, the supplier is denied revenue they are entitled to. But, importantly, it does not cost them anything to 'restock' in order to sell that product somebody else. (The marginal cost of carrying the fare evader will be very low, a small amount of fuel/electricity plus some wear and tear.)

By contrast, driving away without paying for fuel, or stealing bread, does involve a physical product. It does cost the supplier whatever it takes to replace that product in order to sell it somebody else.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

edit - written before post above appeared!

I'm not sure it is so much feeling that they can get away with it, as people not attributing a value to the service.

If you steal food or petrol, this is a physical item which has real value and their stealing of it costs the firm revenue. When it comes to illegally downloading music etc. then people do not see a value there and feel that they are not costing anyone money by doing so. So for trains. The service runs anyway, the cost of moving their additional weight is minimal, so I am sure most fare dodgers believe that they are not costing the company anything for their 'free ride' so nothing to feel guilty about.

I would go as far to say that this belief applies to most of us on this forum too. If you boarded a train at a station with no place to biy tickets, never saw the conductor then disembarked at another unmanned atation, would you on the way home buy a single or a return? I bet most people would have no qualms about buying a single and counting the earlier trip as a free ride. Yet if you went to a shop and found what you wanted to buy but there was no one on the tills, you would not just take it...

 

[Lewisham2221]

I do find it odd that people in general think train journeys can be 'free' by avoiding paying for a ticket when they would never consider driving away from a filling station without paying for fuel.

Again, this quite possibly has something to do with the filling industry's response to the problem. It is much more difficult to get away without paying for the £50 of diesel that you've just pumped into your car than it is to get away without paying for a rail journey.

 

[Buttsy]

I would go as far to say that this belief applies to most of us on this forum too. If you boarded a train at a station with no place to biy tickets, never saw the conductor then disembarked at another unmanned atation, would you on the way home buy a single or a return? I bet most people would have no qualms about buying a single and counting the earlier trip as a free ride. Yet if you went to a shop and found what you wanted to buy but there was no one on the tills, you would not just take it...

With response to this, a mate of mine had to travel from Radley to Oxford and there was no TVM, so using teh help point he asked how he was to pay for teh journey - he was told to find teh conductor. On teh train, teh conductor was locked in the rear cab. At Oxford (barriers open), he looked for someone to buy a ticket from, but there was no-one. I know all this as I was with him (I had purcahsed a return earlier in teh day). At least he made an effort to find someone to pay before getting his 'free ride'.

Perhaps what's needed is a bus style situation where tickest are checked on getting on the train and issued if someone doesn't have a ticket. [joking!]

 

[Lewisham2221]

With response to this, a mate of mine had to travel from Radley to Oxford and there was no TVM, so using teh help point he asked how he was to pay for teh journey - he was told to find teh conductor. On teh train, teh conductor was locked in the rear cab. At Oxford (barriers open), he looked for someone to buy a ticket from, but there was no-one. I know all this as I was with him (I had purcahsed a return earlier in teh day). At least he made an effort to find someone to pay before getting his 'free ride'.

Perhaps what's needed is a bus style situation where tickest are checked on getting on the train and issued if someone doesn't have a ticket. [joking!]

Yes, he made an effort, but the industry/TOC had 3 opportunities to collect revenue from your friend and failed to do so.

 

[RJ]

I agree.

The last SB EMT to St Pancras is an all stations stopper. The ticket office at my origin is shut and I can't buy the ticket I want from the machine, so I buy a £2 single to the next shack.

The guards have never bothered doing tickets when I've used this service and the ticket office at St Pancras is shut by the time we get there.

 

[LexyBoy]

With response to this, a mate of mine had to travel from Radley to Oxford and there was no TVM, so using teh help point he asked how he was to pay for teh journey - he was told to find teh conductor.

Bit poor of teh help point people not to know there is no guard on teh stopping trains on teh Thames Valley services.

He could have bought a ticket from a TVM surely (even if wrong-way)?

 

[maniacmartin]

A wrong-way ticket is not valid, and in certain cases could be seen as intent to avoid the full return fare, if the passenger is returning later to their origin station.

 

[theblackwatch]

Presumably TOCs do very little in the way of monitoring whether tickets are checked or not? Using Northern as an example (as the guards do the checking/selling of tickets on board), if one member of staff consistently sells only 20% as many tickets as others on the same route who are, how shall I put it, 'more desperate', then surely the TOC should look into it if they are actually concerned about revenue.

 

[LexyBoy]

A wrong-way ticket is not valid, and in certain cases could be seen as intent to avoid the full return fare, if the passenger is returning later to their origin station.

It's not valid, but if there's no opportunity to purchase the correct fare then it has to be better than nothing - you could argue that the facilities were not available to purchase the desired ticket so you bought one of the same value, to be exchanged for the correct ticket when possible, as you would if boarding at a station with a TVM which doesn't offer the fare wanted.

If I were returning later I'd buy a return and throw away the RTN portion on return to my origin station.

 

[AndyLandy]

Bit poor of teh help point people not to know there is no guard on teh stopping trains on teh Thames Valley services.

He could have bought a ticket from a TVM surely (even if wrong-way)?

If there's a real issue of not being able to buy appropriate tickets from a TVM, why don't they have the option to purchase a PTT instead? Or is that just asking to be abused?

 

[Goatboy]

I do find it odd that people in general think train journeys can be 'free' by avoiding paying for a ticket when they would never consider driving away from a filling station without paying for fuel.

The reason is, I suspect, because there is no physical product 'stolen' when you don't pay for a train ticket. This makes many people think its ok - as its not actually theft, it's obviously acceptable, is the logic they use.

Flawed logic, of course, but it's logic all the same.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Even when there are on board ticket checks the law of the jungle applies. A few weeks back on an FCC service in to London four 'wannabe gangsta' brats fronted out the two ticket inspectors and refused to pay or give any details eventually alighting at Cricklewood . While I understand that they didn't want to escalate a situation they then give a weedy looking bloke on his own a penalty fare. They may not want to delay services etc but the message seems clear enough - if you think you are harder (or greater in number) than the revenue staff then you can travel for free. It is almost like FCC have adopted a law of the jungle policy to fare evasion - make life easier by preying on the weak.
I think most on the train would have been happy to see it stopped until the fare evaders were removed/arrested. Now they know they never need to buy a ticket again.

 

[island]

I've done Paddington to Gloucester last few weeks and every single time there has been a check between Paddington and Reading (despite the train leaving from a gated platform) and absolutely nothing thereafter. A single from London Terminals to Reading Stations and Stonehouse to Gloucester would do me to get in and out the gates,

Needless to say I don't do this, not least because I'm on expenses so it wouldn't make an ounce of sense!

 

[sheff1]

Even when there are on board ticket checks the law of the jungle applies. A few weeks back on an FCC service in to London four 'wannabe gangsta' brats fronted out the two ticket inspectors and refused to pay or give any details eventually alighting at Cricklewood . While I understand that they didn't want to escalate a situation they then give a weedy looking bloke on his own a penalty fare. They may not want to delay services etc but the message seems clear enough - if you think you are harder (or greater in number) than the revenue staff then you can travel for free. It is almost like FCC have adopted a law of the jungle policy to fare evasion - make life easier by preying on the weak.
I think most on the train would have been happy to see it stopped until the fare evaders were removed/arrested. Now they know they never need to buy a ticket again.

This is the sort of thing which make people start to think why should I bother. Of course, most people still do bother but the resentment begins to build.

 

[142094]

I know with Northern that there are a couple of guards that are quite lax at doing their job properly, but the majority I see do make the effort to check after each station, and collect most if not all of the revenue they can.

What some may not realise is that Northern have quite a few mystery shoppers who report back on journeys, and this includes if revenue checks were performed after each station.

 

[VauxhallandI]

This is the sort of thing which make people start to think why should I bother. Of course, most people still do bother but the resentment begins to build.

Hurrah! I alluded to this in a different thread.

They pick on the easy targets and it really grinds my gears.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Presumably TOCs do very little in the way of monitoring whether tickets are checked or not? Using Northern as an example (as the guards do the checking/selling of tickets on board), if one member of staff consistently sells only 20% as many tickets as others on the same route who are, how shall I put it, 'more desperate', then surely the TOC should look into it if they are actually concerned about revenue.

I was advised by one of my soon-to-be colleagues that you can go a month without getting out of the back cab and you'll probably only get it mentioned in a six monthly review. I suppose if people are allowed to get away with it, then they will, which then leads to passengers also getting away without paying. In the end all it will result in is trains going over to DOO. Lose-lose for everybody.

 

[Flamingo]

In my experience, the ONLY things that result in hassle for a guard from management are Delays and Complaints (but much less so than delays).

If you run the train from the cab, you don't get either.