Good Samaritan at a cost

[richw]

Network Q have kindly donated a replacement second hand car for the samaritan.

a very good pr move by network q, its a shame they can't look after their existing customers so well. Their aftersale care was terrible from my experience. My old vectra spent 4 months of the 6 month warranty they provided, with very poor service.
I also note the car they've donated is a 7 year old model, and network q only deal up to 5 year old models, so probably a trade in they wanted rid of.

 

[AlexS]

That's why whenever someone falls over every HCP slinks away in the hope they haven't been seen.

Aren't you a student? Bit inexperienced to make such a sweeping statement. I've requested the assistance of any nearby medical professionals (making a general request over public address or similar rather than staring out individuals and saying 'I THINK YOU SIR, ARE A DOCTOR) in several cases with ill passengers and I think on every occasion someone has come forward to assist. This includes several falls (one of which resulted in the passenger breaking his leg in 3 places - he came back the following week to thank us). I believe most people in the general population and healthcare profession have something called 'integrity'.

 

[richw]

I agree,ever since the case in Plymouth of the (off duty) doctor who helped the cardiac arrest victim but broke his ribs doing CPR (easily done) and ended up in court on ABH charges I have been a staunch supporter of "eff all to do with me guvna" and walk away, if they die because you didnt do anything you cant be sued!

Dont you just love Britain where you are damned if you do (help) but fine if you dont.:roll:

yes the CPS did bring it to court, and the judge threw the case out within 10 minutes.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Aren't you a student?

Yes.

Bit inexperienced to make such a sweeping statement.

No, they are the words of every single HCP I've worked with, and the ones I have as friends.

I've requested the assistance of any nearby medical professionals (making a general request over public address or similar rather than staring out individuals and saying 'I THINK YOU SIR, ARE A DOCTOR) in several cases with ill passengers and I think on every occasion someone has come forward to assist.

Good for you.

This includes several falls (one of which resulted in the passenger breaking his leg in 3 places - he came back the following week to thank us).

What do you expect someone to do with a broken leg? What do you think can be done over and above a bit of "there, there" and calling an ambulance? There is only one situation I can think of where a professional can make a difference, that being an arrest, but even then no more can be done than your average first aider.

 

[90019]

At least there's one positive side to the story - there's one less Vectra on the roads.

 

[Tom B]

if they die because you didnt do anything you cant be sued!

Perhaps in this specific case, yes, if you're not a qualified doctor or ambulanceman or the like.

However most such laws judge you on your acts or omissions. So there are quite conceivably cases where taking the "someone else's problem" attitude could land you in deep **** - if it can be shown that it was reasonable for you to do X, but you didn't (usual IANAL blurb).

 

[richw]

Perhaps in this specific case, yes, if you're not a qualified doctor or ambulanceman or the like.

However most such laws judge you on your acts or omissions. So there are quite conceivably cases where taking the "someone else's problem" attitude could land you in deep **** - if it can be shown that it was reasonable for you to do X, but you didn't (usual IANAL blurb).

In France you can be given a fixed penalty fine for not helping a person who has had an accident. Do we have any such offences in the UK?

Edit - I have just found that there is no such "good samaritan law" in the UK.
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Just found out that if you give first aid without consent of the patient or guardian of patient when a minor, you can be prosecuted. This doesnt apply if the patient is unconscious or unable to give consent

 

[Flamingo]

Just found out that if you give first aid without consent of the patient or guardian of patient when a minor, you can be prosecuted. This doesnt apply if the patient is unconscious or unable to give consent

Just found out from who? (Your mate in the pub doesn't count, unless he is a barrister who specialises in medico-legal cases)

 

[richw]

Just found out from who? (Your mate in the pub doesn't count, unless he is a barrister who specialises in medico-legal cases)

Not applicable to the UK as we dont have a good samaritan law, but where the Good Samaritan Law applies it states

The responder must obtain the consent of the patient, or of the legal guardian of a patient who is a minor, unless this is not possible; failing to do so may attract a charge of assault or battery. All "Good Samaritans" must state their level of training if previously trained
Consent may be implied if an unattended patient is unconscious, delusional, intoxicated or deemed mentally unfit to make decisions regarding their safety, or if the responder has a reasonable belief that this was so; courts tend to be very forgiving in adjudicating this, under the legal fiction that "peril invites rescue" (as in the rescue doctrine).[20] The test in most jurisdictions is that of the 'average, reasonable person'. To illustrate, would the average, reasonable person in any of the states described above consent to receiving assistance in these circumstances if able to make a decision?

Consent may also be implied if the legal parent or guardian is not immediately reachable and the patient is not considered an adult

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law - about 1/3 of the way down

 

[Flamingo]

Not applicable to the UK as we dont have a good samaritan law, but where the Good Samaritan Law applies it states



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law - about 1/3 of the way down

Fair enough, I thought you meant in the UK.

A lot of urban myths circulate about "First Aid" and the potential outcomes of helping somebody.

The bottom line is that unless some act or omission by the person performing first aid causes the casualties condition to worsen and that should not have happened if that act / omission had not been done by a "reasonable person" with the same level of training, then a case should not come to court.

 

[richw]

Fair enough, I thought you meant in the UK.

Sorry, previous post wasnt clear, I'd be interested if there was such a law in the UK though?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Please let's not get onto consent or capacity.

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe that the insurers of the party that caused the original accident should have foot the bill for this, as it was that accident that led to the situation. Of course what a body should do and what it is legally obliged to do may not always be the same.

 

[jon91]

What do you expect someone to do with a broken leg? What do you think can be done over and above a bit of "there, there" and calling an ambulance? There is only one situation I can think of where a professional can make a difference, that being an arrest, but even then no more can be done than your average first aider.

Hmm, so from what you're saying the small mountain's worth of drugs and specialist equipment an ambulance carries and the fact that paramedics are trained in administering such drugs is just a massive waste of money?

Right...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Hmm, so from what you're saying the small mountain's worth of drugs and specialist equipment an ambulance carries and the fact that paramedics are trained in administering such drugs is just a massive waste of money?

Right...

Read my post again.

What do you expect someone to do with a broken leg? What do you think can be done over and above a bit of "there, there" and calling an ambulance? There is only one situation I can think of where a professional can make a difference, that being an arrest, but even then no more can be done than your average first aider.

I clearly refer to the situation where an off duty HCP is asked to intervene. In fact, inadvertently, you have spotted the point I am trying to make; that in a situation other than a critically ill patient a professional with no kit can't do much.
I'm also very well aware of the types of medication and equipment an ambulance carries.

 

[Flamingo]

Hmm, so from what you're saying the small mountain's worth of drugs and specialist equipment an ambulance carries and the fact that paramedics are trained in administering such drugs is just a massive waste of money?

Right...

In certain circumstances, yes.

The aim of this "small mountain's worth of drugs and specialist equipment " is to start appropriate treatment as soon a possible, without a delay whilst transporting a casualty to hospital for definitive diagnosis and treatment.

Depending on what is wrong with the casualty, the best course of action may be to not delay the transport to hospital by commencing treatment. It is a judgement call by the paramedics.

There have been papers published in medical journals that say that paramedics on occasions will delay that transport to hospital to start procedures that whilst the paramedic may be trained to do them, are not to any advantage to the casualty to delay transport to perform them. (Not because they need to, just because they can).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There are situations when the best thing to do is pick the patient up and drive as fast as you can to the nearest appropriate receiving department, treating en route. At the same time there are cases where that can be a worse thing and definitive diagnosis and treatment can be done on scene, and indeed, if successful, patients can be discharged on scene.
Diesel is sometimes the best drug.

 

[Flamingo]

There are situations when the best thing to do is pick the patient up and drive as fast as you can to the nearest appropriate receiving department, treating en route. At the same time there are cases where that can be a worse thing and definitive diagnosis and treatment can be done on scene, and indeed, if successful, patients can be discharged on scene.
Diesel is sometimes the best drug.

Like all things it's finding the balance.

 

[jon91]

Good points made I'll concede but let's apply them to this particular situation. I'm imagining that the paramedics who dealt with it took into consideration the fact that it wasn't just a collision between two cars and the potential for larger forces to be applied to those involved, thus raising the probability for spinal injury.

Bearing this in mind, would you agree that if the two involved showed any sign of such injury (e.g. loss of sensation/paranaesthesia in the limbs) that the paramedics would be more inclined to think that it was spinal injury and not just "whipcash".

 

[Flamingo]

Even at that, I still think that somebody was being at best way overcautious, at worst bloody-minded.

There are ways of moving casualties with minimal spinal movement who would be at the lower end of the risk scale (as I'm sure these were, simply by their mobility in the immediate aftermath of the crash) than taking the "We've got a roof cutter and we're going to use it" approach.

At the end of the day, neither casualty (according to the news report) was suffering from an unstable spinal injury. A bit more diagnosis, a bit less gung-ho was required.

 

[jon91]

I can partially understand your thinking but people have been known to sustain spinal injuries in road accidents and be fine for a short period of time due to the action of adrenaline and other hormones. The true extent of such injuries can only be determined by medical imaging and therefore at the scene of an accident remains as an unknown variable until it can ascertained otherwise.

I'll take that you've seen the length of the boards used to immobilise people in these situations, yes with hindsight it was unnecessary, but without being able to examine the entire vertebral column it isn't possible to determine where a possible fracture is then the entire back has to be immobilised. This probably being why they chose to take the roof off, so that they could have enough room to get more rescue staff around to extricate the individuals safely.

I'll give you an example from someone I know who is a radiographer, she had a woman come in for a CT scan complaining of a stiff neck which actually turned out to have a fracture of the C2 vertebrae - this being extremely dangerous and could have killed the woman quite readily but caused no more discomfort than a stiff neck.

 

[455driver]

I was always under the impression this was an urban myth...

I used to have a link to the court case (on the Plymouth Evening Herald website) but that went up in smoke along with the computer it was on.:cry:

I remember the letters page was very "vocal" in its condemnation of the whole circus.
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I believe that the insurers of the party that caused the original accident should have foot the bill for this, as it was that accident that led to the situation. Of course what a body should do and what it is legally obliged to do may not always be the same.

Yep I was at the scene of (but not involved in) an RTA which led to my Porsche suffering £10,000 worth of damage.

Cant see that one working somehow.
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Aren't you a student? Bit inexperienced to make such a sweeping statement.

ralphchadkirk isnt wrong though, I have heard this from several serving and retired HCPs.
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Like all things it's finding the balance.

Which is something we find very difficult in this country.

 

[Bungle73]

I used to have a link to the court case (on the Plymouth Evening Herald website) but that went up in smoke along with the computer it was on.:cry:

I already posted what the actual situation. It's best not to take as gospel everything reported in the papers.

Which is something we find very difficult in this country.

More like "we" find it difficult to not lap up everything the tabloid press feeds us, no matter what the actual facts are.

 

[Temple Meads]

One lesson I've learnt, is that I'm going to be a good samaritan motorist, I'll drive a convertible

 

[bnm]

No, they are the words of every single HCP I've worked with, and the ones I have as friends.

You didn't qualify it with "I've worked with" and "friends" when you made the original sweeping statement. Let me remind you:

That's why whenever someone falls over every HCP slinks away in the hope they haven't been seen.

Unless you've worked with, or are friends with every HCP in the country then your broad generalisation has no basis in fact.

Some of the less 'caring' HCPs may well slink away. But not every one. They are often lifesavers. You or someone you love may need one to be there one day.



EDIT: Ahh, just read your signature. Thanks for the pointer. Can safely ignore anything you post.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'll take that you've seen the length of the boards used to immobilise people in these situations, yes with hindsight it was unnecessary, but without being able to examine the entire vertebral column it isn't possible to determine where a possible fracture is then the entire back has to be immobilised. This probably being why they chose to take the roof off, so that they could have enough room to get more rescue staff around to extricate the individuals safely.

There is growing evidence that immobilising people on extrication boards is more harmful to the spine and the person than either not immobilising at all, or using better methods (such as an ortho scoop, KED etc).

If you're interested then I shall try and dig research out for you.
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One lesson I've learnt, is that I'm going to be a good samaritan motorist, I'll drive a convertible

Or be forced to drive a convertible
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EDIT: Ahh, just read your signature. Thanks for the pointer. Can safely ignore anything you post.

Feel free to ignore me. I think you might be surprised though when you actually talk to some PHEC medical staff.

 

[AndyLandy]

Unless you've worked with, or are friends with every HCP in the country then your broad generalisation has no basis in fact.

All generalisations are false.

(Including this one)

 

[Flamingo]

Many years ago, I fell off my bike outside a hospital (I broke a bone on landing, and my helmet saved me from a nasty head injury). As I was picking myself up, I heard a familiar voice, and looked up to see a nurse I knew, who had been waiting outside the hospital for somebody. Afterwards, she said "I wasn't going to come over, as everybody tells us not to get involved, but when I saw it was you I figured I'd better!".