Kent Rover and Condition 19(c)

[IanD]

As the Kent Rover is valid for only 3 consecutive days, am I right in thinking that it does not count as a leisure travel pass for the purposes of condition 19(c)?

So, if I had a zone 1-3 weekly ticket on Oyster and a Kent Rover, I could combine these with a boundary zone 3 ticket to Swanley (or Gravesend) and be able to use this combination on services that pass through but don't necessarily stop at Swanley (or Gravesend)?

But a combination of just a (eg) London Terminals to Swanley ticket plus a Kent Rover would need the train to call at Swanley?

 

[ainsworth74]

As the Kent Rover is valid for only 3 consecutive days, am I right in thinking that it does not count as a leisure travel pass for the purposes of condition 19(c)?

But a combination of just a (eg) London Terminals to Swanley ticket plus a Kent Rover would need the train to call at Swanley?

This is correct. The definition of a leisure travel pass is:

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

The Kent rover does not meet the requirements of this and therefore the proposed split I've quoted above would require the train to call at Swanley.

 

[island]

Is a ticket valid for three days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 12-JNR-13) not also valid for at least three days in a period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 16-JNR-13)?

 

[MikeWh]

Is a ticket valid for three days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 12-JNR-13) not also valid for at least three days in a period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 16-JNR-13)?

I'm with island on this one. Three days is the minimum validity to term it a rover, while seven days is the maximum spread for those 3 days to occur within.

 

[LexyBoy]

Poor wording here methinks.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

A Kent Rover is valid for 3 days in a period of 3 consecutive days. Due to maths, it is also valid for 3 days in any number more than 3 days. The intended meaning is clearly "at least 3 days selected from a period of at least 7 consecutive days".

I'm with island on this one. Three days is the minimum validity to term it a rover, while seven days is the maximum spread for those 3 days to occur within.

Minimum spread surely? However there's nothing to say that the 3 days can't be consecutive.

 

[button_boxer]

Is a ticket valid for three days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 12-JNR-13) not also valid for at least three days in a period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 16-JNR-13)?

True, but if that were the intended reading then (i) ends up being completely redundant - any ticket valid for seven consecutive days would be covered by "(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days".

 

[IanD]

Poor wording here methinks.

Originally Posted by NRCoC Condition 19
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

A Kent Rover is valid for 3 days in a period of 3 consecutive days. Due to maths, it is also valid for 3 days in any number more than 3 days. The intended meaning is clearly "at least 3 days selected from a period of at least 7 consecutive days".

That was my reading hence my request for clarification. I also think clause (i) is actually made redundant by clause (ii).

 

[Goatboy]

I think its a poorly worded condition intended to restrict validity to, at the minimum, a 3 in 7 day Rover.

 

[Be3G]

It's funny: to me it reads perfectly clearly. Condition (i) relates to tickets whose validity for travelling is sold in the form of consecutive days; condition (ii) is regarding tickets that're sold as ‘x days in x’. It reads as fairly unambiguous to me.

What I do, however, concede, is that the way I read them creates a slightly illogical conclusion, whereby a 3-in-7 ticket counts as a leisure pass whereas a 3-in-3 (so to speak) pass doesn't. Nevertheless, we all know that the railways can at times be illogical, so I'd be inclined to say that the conditions mean what they say at the most basic interpretation.

Actually! No, it's perhaps not illogical after all: I've just remembered about the existence of the former 3-day London travelcard. It would make sense for that to not count as a leisure pass (as it was really just three daily travelcards), which is exactly what my ‘basic’ reading of the conditions above says.

 

[RJ]

Is a ticket valid for three days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 12-JNR-13) not also valid for at least three days in a period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. 10-JNR-13 to 16-JNR-13)?

No. The word "period" in this context refers to the period of validity of the ticket. A Kent Rover has a period of three days so it doesn't comply.

The term clearly applies to tickets with a period of at least seven days, such as 3-in-7, 4-in-8 or 8-in-15 Rovers. A ticket with a three day period does not comply with that condition.

 

[bb21]

I agree with RJ, MikeWh, et al. The ticket is only valid for 3 days so it is not "in a period of at least 7 consecutive days".

I can understand how it might come across as being rather odd where a BritRail flexipass valid for 3 days in 2 months is a leisure pass, whereas a Kent Rover isn't.