HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[MidlandMainlie]

Toton is mid way between Derby and Nottingham. It's not a destination in its own right in the way in which Nottingham City Centre would be.

Since the Great Central railway closed and a shopping centre built over Nottingham Victoria, Nottingham's heavy rail infrastructure has been irrevocably compromised.

Had a High Speed line been built approaching Nottingham from the South or South East, a city centre option might just have been possible, but it was never going to happen, with the main High Speed stem going to Birmingham first.

At least Toton is convenient for the people who live in the suburbs of Nottingham and Derby (unlike East Midlands Parkway which is surrounded by fields).

Toton is the best Nottingham could get out of High Speed 2.

Hopefully a Toton HS station will have some platforms provided on the Erewash line so that services can be rerouted to serve this station before continuing on to Nottingham instead of following the more direct route from Trowell into Nottingham.

 

[Kettledrum]

I've just had another look at the Toton site, and it's greater than walking distance from either Nottingham or Derby. My definition of 'convenient for' is 'within an hour's walk of'. In fact, it would give Long Eaton far more importance in railway terms than they have ever had!

If you drew a ring around the Toton site, of all the houses that were an hour's walking distance away, there could be a lot - depending on how the access to the new station could be configured.

Nottingham and Derby City Centres would not be within this walking distance.

This suggests to me, that the High Speed station at Toton would be used by the people who live in this catchment area to travel to do business in London, Birmingham or Leeds.

It would be difficult for people to travel to Toton to do business in Nottingham as Toton is too far from the main business centre in Nottingham.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Hopefully a Toton HS station will have some platforms provided on the Erewash line so that services can be rerouted to serve this station before continuing on to Nottingham instead of following the more direct route from Trowell into Nottingham.

It would make them slower and causes more congestion into Nottingham but still a lot simpler than Derby though.

Regarding XC, would we be able to afford to run 2tph Birmingham - Sheffield (with its calls at Derby, Chesterfield, Tamworth etc.) on top of the HS services - there would be a large net increase in subsidy.

 

[TinManDerby]

Looks like its going to be Totton Sidings and Meadowhall for East Midlands and South Yourkshire, article in The Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Liverpool-win-while-Sheffield-loses-out.html#

Whats the route though Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire ?

 

[tbtc]

Regarding XC, would we be able to afford to run 2tph Birmingham - Sheffield (with its calls at Derby, Chesterfield, Tamworth etc.) on top of the HS services - there would be a large net increase in subsidy.

Would there be a large net increase in subsidy?

We are talking about a long time in the future, and with passenger numbers on that corridor continuing to increase (meaning most services from Birmingham to Sheffield are pretty busy...) that suggests to me that there's room for an "express" line and a "local" line (to serve Burton, Chesterfield etc).

 

[brianthegiant]

The power station is Ratcliffe-on-Soar.
The tram will take circa 30 minutes - it will be quicker from St. Pancras and their isn't the capacity on the trams. Doesn't help Derby or Leicester...

A lot of people will complain that HS2 doesn't go through Derby or Nottingham city centres, theres no easy solution to that. MML & XC lines already provide decent times from Derby & Nottingham to the 2 largest cities - London & Birmingham. I think there is a strong argument for HS2 NOT following the same routes and same calling points as existing mainlines. One of the strengths of HS2 lies in new direct journey possibilities for example East Mids to Heathrow / Birmingham Intl / Kent / Europe / Scotland
which are currently slow & involve changing trains, so are unpopular by train.

Given that Toton will have 4tph (3 London, 1 Birmingham), how many Toton - Derby/Nottingham do you expect to run. Have you worked how to get these services across Trent West Jn.? There is no such thing as "fast" over there! (15mph). Leicester will want connections to head north - travelling to Leeds or the northeast is bad enough already without the spectre of potential MML & XC cuts.

HS2 will need to go through / over Trent Junction to get into to Toton from the south, therefore major changes to Trent Junction (incl more flyovers) are likely anyway. taking out the 15mph bottleneck on the line towards Derby would presumably be a top priority?

 

[tbtc]

Toton is mid way between Derby and Nottingham. It's not a destination in its own right in the way in which Nottingham City Centre would be.

Since the Great Central railway closed and a shopping centre built over Nottingham Victoria, Nottingham's heavy rail infrastructure has been irrevocably compromised.

Had a High Speed line been built approaching Nottingham from the South or South East, a city centre option might just have been possible, but it was never going to happen, with the main High Speed stem going to Birmingham first.

At least Toton is convenient for the people who live in the suburbs of Nottingham and Derby (unlike East Midlands Parkway which is surrounded by fields).

Toton is the best Nottingham could get out of High Speed 2.

There's nowhere in Nottingham suitable, so I think that (like Sheffield) it'd be better to have a station connected to the rail network than it would to either ignore the place completely or to have a stand-alone High Speed station.

I appreciate that Toton isn't a destination in it's own right, but I think that either Toton or East Midlands Parkway would be okay.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think there is a strong argument for HS2 NOT following the same routes and same calling points as existing mainlines

Agreed

 

[Haydn1971]

article in The Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Liverpool-win-while-Sheffield-loses-out.html#

Article based upon bluster from ministers wanting to unsettle the project - I've seen this on a council and PTE level, no reason it shouldn't happen on a nationsl level either.

Large pinch of salt

 

[steamdrivenand]

Haven't they always said there will be 'A Parkway' station shared by Nottingham and Derby on HS2? It doesn't have to be the current East Mids Parkway, surely one at Toton fulfils the principle?

I do get the feeling that on this Y section the government are trying to anticipate and cover off as many issues as possible before publishing, rather than as in Phase 1 where they have had to do significant rework after publication.

 

[Haydn1971]

I think there is a strong argument for HS2 NOT following the same routes and same calling points as existing mainlines.

Also agreed - The urban map of the country is quite different to when the mainlines were established.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Article based upon bluster from ministers wanting to unsettle the project - I've seen this on a council and PTE level, no reason it shouldn't happen on a nationsl level either.

Large pinch of salt

Yes, I'm not sure how the headline that 'Liverpool wins and Sheffield loses out' is justified by the content of the article?

Liverpool aren't getting a direct HS2 service/connection and Sheffield is, only it's a few miles out of town. The nearest HS2 will get to Liverpool is about 15 to 20 miles away.

 

[Haydn1971]

Well, we don't know yet that Sheffield nor Liverpool will get a HS2 branch into the city centres - clues so far have been on the reports produced by Arup, Atkins and others for HS2, the DfT & PTE's that appear to make assumptions of a parkway station for Sheffield and I've seen a DfT schematic showing a spur to Liverpool - I really wouldn't rule out anything yet, despite our collective educated guesses.

 

[Jordeh]

Personally I think the Toton plan is a good idea for many of the reasons outlined in this thread, although given I'd be within walking distance of it that might influence my opinion

Surely if some of the trains that currently terminate at Derby and Nottingham were sent further along the MML and then up the Erewash Valley at Trent Junction to terminate at the High Speed stop, this would provide excellent connectivity across the East Midlands and on to the rail network in general.

For instance the Crewe & Matlock trains could travel beyond Derby and the Lincoln & Skegness trains could beyond Nottingham and all terminate at the station? This would be in addition to the NET Tram providing access to many across Nottinghamshire anyway.

Would there be any chance for high speed classic compatible trains for instance to join here from Leicester and then continue north towards Leeds and maybe Glasgow for instance?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just found this is the NR CP5 plan (LNW Route Plan p40), discussing the impact of HS2 planning in CP5:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ute plans/london north western route plan.pdf

Development of the ‘Y’ network (including new stations at Manchester and joining the existing WCML at Golborne Junction

 

[steamdrivenand]

Just found this is the NR CP5 plan (LNW Route Plan p41), discussing the impact of HS2 planning in CP5:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ute plans/london north western route plan.pdf

For those looking the quote in question is on Page 40, not 41.

At a quick glance I couldn't see a date of publication for the plan but I suppose things could have moved on as far as HS2 is concerned. Given that the intended route has been with various Ministers for the last year or so and they'd have fiddled with it to suit their political ends no doubt.

HS2 has to join WCML somewhere up near Manchester and maybe Golborne is sensible, although I didn't envisage it going quite that far north on this phase.

It's interesting that whilst the mention of Manchester could cover links to both the airport and central, there is no mention of Crewe or anywhere else as a link point.

 

[brianthegiant]

Would there be any chance for high speed classic compatible trains for instance to join here from Leicester and then continue north towards Leeds and maybe Glasgow for instance?

Yep, now we know where the stations are, so the location and layout of junctions is the next fun area of speculation.

The south side of Toton is heavily built up (Sawley / Long Eaton), but the 2 double track lines into Toton are under utilised. I would assume that one of the existing trackbeds will get a wider curve for HS2 and Trent Junction will be remodelled so freight & diversions can all use the other approach.

Given that HS2 will need to pass through/over Trent Junction, that would be a potential junction on HS2, however there isn't unlimited space at Trent Jn, you have housing to the North, Trent Lock to the south West. It's also in the Trent flood plain, so anything new will be viaducts rather than tunnels, so noise levels become an issue for nearby housing.

I would expect to see a new Chord on the classic lines just north of the new 'Toton International' so some local trains from Derby/Leicester could approach from the south via Trent Junction then continue into Nottingham (through Wollaton/Lenton) without reversing. That might be unpopular with some as it would miss out Beeston, but then half the eastbound XC BHM-NOT services miss out Beeston anyway. On the + side it would ease congestion /create diversionary route on the western approach to Nottingham. A new local station in the Wollaton area would also be a possibility, but I'm really getting into fantasy land now..

As we discussed before, there are plans for housing between Toton Yard and the new NET park & ride currently under construction on the A52. These plans include an undeveloped corridor for future NET extension. The layout of the P&R has also kept the land beyond the terminus relatively clear. It will be interesting to see if the NET is just extended to Toton or beyond towards Sawley or Sandiacre... Long Eaton & Stapleford town centres would clearly be popular places for tram stops & could do with some regeneration.

 

[Haydn1971]

HS2 has to join WCML somewhere up near Manchester and maybe Golborne is sensible, although I didn't envisage it going quite that far north on this phase.

You can practically draw a straight line between Lichfield and Golbourne, passing to the east of Stoke, past Congleton and Knutsford, with a tight shuffle into Wigan at the northern end. This strongly suggests a London facing spur from north of Congleton passing west of Wilmslow station near Manchester Airport (new terminal south of the runways ?), then parallel the railway line that follows the A34 into south of Manchester - eating my words, Piccadilly !

The Liverpool connection is looking increasingly likely to be a spur from Golborne, paralleling the line directly into Liverpool Lime Street - anyone know what capacity this line has free, could a lower speed 125/140 mph speed be maintained or would a dedicated line be required ?

It's interesting that whilst the mention of Manchester could cover links to both the airport and central, there is no mention of Crewe or anywhere else as a link point.

Crewe was just a nonsense really, too far west.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You can practically draw a straight line between Lichfield and Golbourne, passing to the east of Stoke, past Congleton and Knutsford, with a tight shuffle into Wigan at the northern end.

Whilst noting your Yorkshire connection, may I as a resident of Cheshire East ask you if I am to understand your route in the quote above as being from the north of Congleton as being one that passes northwards through the three areas of Peover Heath, Marthall and Knolls Green ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For those looking the quote in question is on Page 40, not 41.

At a quick glance I couldn't see a date of publication for the plan but I suppose things could have moved on as far as HS2 is concerned.

Reference corrected.
The CP5 Route Plan publication date is TODAY!

 

[steamdrivenand]

You can practically draw a straight line between Lichfield and Golbourne,

With respect H you can draw a straight line between any two points on a map.

According to my ruler a straight line between L&G runs slap bang through the middle of Britannia Stadium and to avoid the Stoke urban area you can either go east towards the Peaks etc or west, roughly where the WCML and M6 go. Both 'diversions' are about the same distance from a direct route, but the westerly is cheaper engineering.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Reference corrected.
The CP5 Route Plan publication date is TODAY!

Ah, so it should be fairly up to date.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

into Liverpool Lime Street - anyone know what capacity this line has free, could a lower speed 125/140 mph speed be maintained or would a dedicated line be required ?

I've only travelled into Lime Street by train two or three times and IIRC from Edge Hill Station the line runs through a deep, straight sided rock cutting the whole mile or so into the City centre. The cutting is spanned by dozens of overbridges and occasionally becomes tunnel for short distances. I don't think there's room for more lines and widening the cutting would be an immense task bang in the middle of a major city. I don't think it would be something HS2 would dream of tackling. However it looks like there are potential sites for an HS2 dedicated extension further out of the city.

 

[Haydn1971]

Whilst noting your Yorkshire connection, may I as a resident of Cheshire East ask you if I am to understand your route in the quote above as being from the north of Congleton as being one that passes northwards through the three areas of Peover Heath, Marthall and Knolls Green ?

Would these areas be terribly posh ? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the class balance in Cheshire old chap
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With respect H you can draw a straight line between any two points on a map.

Indeed, which is why I used the term "practically"

As a route, I'm thinking as direct as possible, so;

From the Lichfield curve into WCML, pass northeast of Rugeley, east of Hixon, pick up the gap through Blythe Bridge (railway gap), east of Weston Coyney, west of Washerwall, under Stockton Brook, southwest of Biddulph, southwest of Congleton, slot between the M6 & Knutsford, east of Lymm, slow the line speed to curve around the northeast of M62 J11, southwest of Culcheth and into Golborne Junction

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would these areas be terribly posh ? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the class balance in Cheshire old chap

They are very old rural settlements that a projection northwards from Congleton to the area proposed in a certain posting alluded to. This is why I named those three settlements as they all lie on the most southernmost part of that projection. Were you somewhat influenced by an earlier posting on a thread that said if Alderley Edge was threatened by an HS2 projection that the barricades would be backed up by serried ranks of Ferraris and Bentleys ten deep..:roll:

Where I live, especially in the rural parts, we tend to look down upon the residents of both Alderley Edge and of Wilmslow as "nouveau riche" and lacking in the true heritage of Cheshire. Mind you, I would not be surprised to find myself proudly sat astride the latest model offered by the tractor industry, exhorting the local gentry at the Alderley Edge barricades in a reverse-role representation of "Les Miserables"...

 

[steamdrivenand]

proudly sat astride the latest model offered by the tractor industry

That'd be a Lamborghini then Paul?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

pick up the gap through Blythe Bridge (railway gap), east of Weston Coyney, west of Washerwall, under Stockton Brook, southwest of Biddulph, southwest of Congleton

I say again Haydn, after Blythe Bridge you're up in bandit country with some very big engineering challenges and associated high costs.

You'd be running the line about 6km east of the centre of the Stoke/Newcastle urban area. Conversely 6km west of the same point will find the line running west of Keele, just east of the M6 and about 4km east of the WCML. If it continues NNW or thereabouts it slips between the motorway and Knutsford just the same but over flatter landscape and without upsetting the Chancellors voters.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Yep, now we know where the stations are, so the location and layout of junctions is the next fun area of speculation.

The south side of Toton is heavily built up (Sawley / Long Eaton), but the 2 double track lines into Toton are under utilised. I would assume that one of the existing trackbeds will get a wider curve for HS2 and Trent Junction will be remodelled so freight & diversions can all use the other approach.

Given that HS2 will need to pass through/over Trent Junction, that would be a potential junction on HS2, however there isn't unlimited space at Trent Jn, you have housing to the North, Trent Lock to the south West. It's also in the Trent flood plain, so anything new will be viaducts rather than tunnels, so noise levels become an issue for nearby housing.

I would expect to see a new Chord on the classic lines just north of the new 'Toton International' so some local trains from Derby/Leicester could approach from the south via Trent Junction then continue into Nottingham (through Wollaton/Lenton) without reversing. That might be unpopular with some as it would miss out Beeston, but then half the eastbound XC BHM-NOT services miss out Beeston anyway. On the + side it would ease congestion /create diversionary route on the western approach to Nottingham. A new local station in the Wollaton area would also be a possibility, but I'm really getting into fantasy land now..

As we discussed before, there are plans for housing between Toton Yard and the new NET park & ride currently under construction on the A52. These plans include an undeveloped corridor for future NET extension. The layout of the P&R has also kept the land beyond the terminus relatively clear. It will be interesting to see if the NET is just extended to Toton or beyond towards Sawley or Sandiacre... Long Eaton & Stapleford town centres would clearly be popular places for tram stops & could do with some regeneration.

The access in and out of Toton from the south is quite limited. The route through Long Eaton town station only has access to Derby - the east chord has been built on. The goods line has access to Nottingham and Leicester via the High Level goods line.

Running Derby/Leicester to Nottingham via the Trowell-Radford line is just insane - a very slow journey for what benefit?

 

[Haydn1971]

without upsetting the Chancellors voters.

It could be his plan to get himself out of the mess he's currently in... Get voted out

 

[steamdrivenand]

It could be his plan to get himself out of the mess he's currently in... Get voted out

It would take a politician to dream up that strategy H.

 

[Haydn1971]

I've spent the last 25 years having to deal with them

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It could be his plan to get himself out of the mess he's currently in... Get voted out

There is more chance of the Second Coming occurring than of the Conservatives losing that particular seat...:roll:

 

[steamdrivenand]

Does anybody actually know when the Y route details are to be announced? Obviously the Sunday papers think it's due this week but I can find no information about which day.

From what I can make out it all hinges on the results of the Judicial Reviews being announced and them having found in favour of the Governments plans. Again I can find no information about when the results are due to be published.

So will the route info just suddenly appear, as if by magic?

Surely there'll be a press conference of some sort.

Has anyone heard of any such conference being organised?

Should we put a 'tail' on Richard Westcott?

 

[dggar]

There is more chance of the Second Coming occurring than of the Conservatives losing that particular seat...:roll:

as the Hamilton's will testify.