MSE thread: "Why the HELL is it wrong to pay ON the Train???"

[VauxhallandI]

You might not have had it said to you (this is Britian after all), but the complaints come into the TOC's, and hardly a day goes past when I do keep First Class for people who paid the extra, that one of the passengers says "thank you" to me for doing it.

If you want to travel First Class, buy a first class ticket. Otherwise, what makes you any more special than everybody in Std class wh is abiding by the terms of their ticket?

Well there was room for them to get on having been at a prior station.

"riff raff in my vestibule" I can't believe it.

 

[Flamingo]

"riff raff in my vestibule" I can't believe it.

No, Standard Class ticket holders in a First Class carriage. If they wish to upgrade, great, otherwise they need to move to the accomidation they paid for.

You said "Riff Raff", not me.

 

[455driver]

Not riff raff but definitely got a chip on their shoulder!

 

[reb0118]

This has been discussed many times before on here, but basically potential revenue is an concept that may or may not be there, but delay costs are real and under the nose of the bean-counters. So, any arguments saying that X amount might be saved in the future are not going to cut any ice when trying to justify the £10000 cost of the delay minutes spent dragging the fare dodger off the train at Reading.

Doesn't the TOC bill the dodger for that?

Unfortunately not at present! However, if a TOC was to claim for this what does the forum think would be the response from the legal establishment?

I have actually been informed by fare evaders that I was processing that I would be costing my company more in fines than they (the company) would ever get back in fares - where did they (the fare evaders) get that knowledge?

 

[VauxhallandI]

No, Standard Class ticket holders in a First Class carriage. If they wish to upgrade, great, otherwise they need to move to the accomidation they paid for.

You said "Riff Raff", not me.

I was trying to imagine the moustached complainant

I have no chip on my shoulder. I have contemplated a First Class season ticket for the last few years but I'm afraid it is just not worth the money. The facilities are sub-standard.

Nobody seems able to see this in a one off occasion as I stated earlier.

Late under sized train that is horrendously over crowded.

I am also finding it hard to see the logic that a SC passenger stood in a FC area is more worthy of your time than a non fee paying customer.

Especially under extreme circumstances, the train is running and the paying customer is covering the overheads the non payer isn't.

Seems to me that a bit of bottling is going on.

 

[maniacmartin]

If I was in first class as a passenger I wouldn't be bothered by someone in the vestibule, except on stock that has automatic doors between the seating area and the vestibule, because people standing there causes the doors to open and close constantly which is irritating.

Whilst I don't condone Johngill100's actions, I too would argue that no ticket at all is a worse offence than standing in the wrong class.

 

[Greenback]

Both offences should be treated equally. Both cost the railway revenue. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to retain first class customers when their accommodation, which includes the vestibule, is being used by people who have not paid to use it.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Both offences should be treated equally. Both cost the railway revenue. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to retain first class customers when their accommodation, which includes the vestibule, is being used by people who have not paid to use it.

Again ignoring the circumstances!!!

I'd argue one cost the TOC more than the other.

There is no one in the FC section to be put off most of the time.

I just thought that there might be some common sense prevailing however it would seem that is too much to ask for.

It would be nice for it to bend both ways.

Next to e the trains are up the swanky I'll just blame the driver....

 

[Flamingo]

I was trying to imagine the moustached complainant

I have no chip on my shoulder. I have contemplated a First Class season ticket for the last few years but I'm afraid it is just not worth the money. The facilities are sub-standard.

Nobody seems able to see this in a one off occasion as I stated earlier.

Late under sized train that is horrendously over crowded.

I am also finding it hard to see the logic that a SC passenger stood in a FC area is more worthy of your time than a non fee paying customer.

Especially under extreme circumstances, the train is running and the paying customer is covering the overheads the non payer isn't.

Seems to me that a bit of bottling is going on.

Given the ammount of grief that I get from people travelling in First Class, asking them to leave is far from being the easy option.

Just to put forward some of the things I encounter on a daily basis on the trains from Paddington to Reading (and Reading to Paddington in the mornings). (as the majority of these passengers are going to Reading).
- Most of these passengers are season-ticket holders, they do the same journeys every day. I see the sames faces daily, and I know they recognise me (as some will say "Not you again")
- They listen to the announcements every day that there are plenty of seats at the other end of the train, and ignore them.
- I know they ignore them, as I will be asking people to leave the First Class vestibules from fifteen minutes before departure, these are not last-minute runners
- The most common excuse I hear is "Nobody else ever asks us to leave", so this is their usual place to stand (when allowed to).
- They will always claim there is no seats or no space, I will then walk through the train and find anything up to 100+ empty seats further down the train.

When there is disruption, I and my colleagues realise the train may be more crowded than usual and will make exceptions. When there is no disruption, listening to the lame excuses and general abuse (and occasional verbal and/or physical assault) from people who have decided that they want the convenience in traveling in the carriages closest to the concourse in Paddington and Reading without paying for the privilege is hardly the easy option.

Your posts just smack of the motorist caught speeding who tells the police "Why don't you catch a real criminal?". I will deal with fare irregularities when I see them, and as is appropriate to the circumstances. If the train has standing room in STD class, I will give passengers the option of paying for First Class or continuing to stand in STD class.

Apart from everything else, some of them may decide to pay for a First Class ticket in future, and the people who have already decided to pay the extra will see that they have got something extra for their money. That is not only good customer service, but makes economic sense.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Given the ammount of grief that I get from people travelling in First Class, asking them to leave is far from being the easy option.

Just to put forward some of the things I encounter on a daily basis on the trains from Paddington to Reading (and Reading to Paddington in the mornings). (as the majority of these passengers are going to Reading).
- Most of these passengers are season-ticket holders, they do the same journeys every day. I see the sames faces daily, and I know they recognise me (as some will say "Not you again")
- They listen to the announcements every day that there are plenty of seats at the other end of the train, and ignore them.
- I know they ignore them, as I will be asking people to leave the First Class vestibules from fifteen minutes before departure, these are not last-minute runners
- The most common excuse I hear is "Nobody else ever asks us to leave", so this is their usual place to stand (when allowed to).
- They will always claim there is no seats or no space, I will then walk through the train and find anything up to 100+ empty seats further down the train.

When there is disruption, I and my colleagues realise the train may be more crowded than usual and will make exceptions. When there is no disruption, listening to the lame excuses and general abuse (and occasional verbal and/or physical assault) from people who have decided that they want the convenience in traveling in the carriages closest to the concourse in Paddington and Reading without paying for the privilege is hardly the easy option.

Your posts just smack of the motorist caught speeding who tells the police "Why don't you catch a real criminal?". I will deal with fare irregularities when I see them, and as is appropriate to the circumstances. If the train has standing room in STD class, I will give passengers the option of paying for First Class or continuing to stand in STD class.

Apart from everything else, some of them may decide to pay for a First Class ticket in future, and the people who have already decided to pay the extra will see that they have got something extra for their money. That is not only good customer service, but makes economic sense.

I can see all four carriages and I can also see people unable to get on the train, this is no mammoth HST

So you agree with me, "when there is a disruption...will make exceptions"

That's all I wanted, I did state this many posts ago.

And for the record I am not a numptie that would EVER say "go and get a real criminal".

As for paying for FC in the future you've obviously not been on one of my trains lately.

 

[Greenback]

Again ignoring the circumstances!!!

If the circumstances are special any train crew might use their discretion.

I'd argue one cost the TOC more than the other.

I don;t think that anyoen involved in trying to protect revenue should make any decision based on a notional amount of how much they think the person has cost the TOC.

I don't think it is a very good argument to say that 'The fare I evaded is only £3.80' any more than it is to say that 'I should stand in First because I have a ticket for Standard and I can't be bothered to move'. Both should be dealt with, neither ignored.

Of course, in the real world a lot more factors do come into play, which may mean the other passengers perception is that someone has 'got away' with soemthing.

There is no one in the FC section to be put off most of the time.

That still doesn't make it right.

I just thought that there might be some common sense prevailing however it would seem that is too much to ask for.

There's a lot of common sense on this forum. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion doesn't mean their opinion isn't based on common sense as well.

I can see the logic and sense behind your argument, I just don't think it is right!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you agree with me, "when there is a disruption...will make exceptions"

I don't think anyone has disagreed with that, though I may have missed something!

I was merely talking about whether standing in a FC vestibule is more or less of an offence than having no ticket? To me they are the same *disruption and discretion excepted).

 

[WelshBluebird]

What confusion? It's quite simple that if there are ticket issuing facilities at the station then you use them before boarding or otherwise buy from the Guard on the train if there are no facilities!

If you only have ever travelled in an area where buying on board is the norm, then why on earth would you expect anything different elsewhere?
That is the confusion.

 

[VauxhallandI]

If the circumstances are special any train crew might use their discretion.



I don;t think that anyoen involved in trying to protect revenue should make any decision based on a notional amount of how much they think the person has cost the TOC.

I don't think it is a very good argument to say that 'The fare I evaded is only £3.80' any more than it is to say that 'I should stand in First because I have a ticket for Standard and I can't be bothered to move'. Both should be dealt with, neither ignored.

Of course, in the real world a lot more factors do come into play, which may mean the other passengers perception is that someone has 'got away' with soemthing.



That still doesn't make it right.



There's a lot of common sense on this forum. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion doesn't mean their opinion isn't based on common sense as well.

I can see the logic and sense behind your argument, I just don't think it is right!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't think anyone has disagreed with that, though I may have missed something!

I was merely talking about whether standing in a FC vestibule is more or less of an offence than having no ticket? To me they are the same *disruption and discretion excepted).

For sure it is good we don't all agree on everything, what a boring world we would live in then.

Yes my point was always about exceptional circumstances, I was getting frustrated that this element seemed to be forgotten in most replies I have received.

I am a stickler for the rules under normal circumstances.

I still stand firm that the easy targets are aimed at rather than the people that daily cheat the system.

 

[455driver]

I am a stickler for the rules under normal circumstances.

Except when it doesnt suit!

I still stand firm that the easy targets are aimed at rather than the people that daily cheat the system.

Maybe if the guard didnt have to spend time moving standard class passengers out of the first class coaches they could spend more time chasing the dodgers!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Except when it doesnt suit!

Hilarious, just ignore the parameters of the discussion time and time again, thanks very constructive.

Maybe if the guard didnt have to spend time moving standard class passengers out of the first class coaches they could spend more time chasing the dodgers!

Again rip roaring
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well GA is screwed this morning. I have had to go down to Cheshunt only to find this line has issues too.

When a trai eventually turns up with a couple of hours worth of passengers i will squeeze myself in.

If it happens to be th FC vestibule then so be it, ive waited an hour and i would like to go to work.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am also finding it hard to see the logic that a SC passenger stood in a FC area is more worthy of your time than a non fee paying customer.

Especially under extreme circumstances, the train is running and the paying customer is covering the overheads the non payer isn't.

Seems to me that a bit of bottling is going on.

A lot of people who use First Class do so because of the improved ambience, and the "snob factor", as well as the extra facilities on offer (food, WiFi, whatever).

It is an inescapable truth and a market force.

Would you expect, on a British Airways flight, for someone to be peering in to First Class from behind the partition curtain for your whole flight? (Ignore whether it would happen - I want you to consider the effect it has on the overall ambience)

It's not about riff-raff, it's about people paying a premium price - more than you've paid - and therefore the TOC should strive to provide a premium service.

 

[Flamingo]

I still stand firm that the easy targets are aimed at rather than the people that daily cheat the system.

Read my post (no 69) again more carefully. To repeat myself
1. These are not "easy" targets.
2. The vast majority of them try to travel in First Class on a daily (or indeed twice daily) basis.

Personally, I see no difference between what they do and someone further down the train on an off-peak ticket.

No, on reflection, what they do is worse, as the person on the off-peak ticket is not obviously breaking the law and causing an annoyance to passengers who have paid the correct fare, and in my experience the person on the off-peak ticket will excess their ticket up with no argument, whereas the person standing in the First Class carriage is not only causing an annoyance and obstruction, but will subject me to a tirade of indignant abuse and lame excuses when asked to pay or move.

 

[AndyLandy]

I am also finding it hard to see the logic that a SC passenger stood in a FC area is more worthy of your time than a non fee paying customer.

Especially under extreme circumstances, the train is running and the paying customer is covering the overheads the non payer isn't.

Given that some First Class fares can be more than double a standard fare for the same train, so the difference between a 1st and Std ticket is greater than the difference between a Std ticket and £0, I would imagine the Std customer in 1st is in fact more worthy of the guard's time.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Given that some First Class fares can be more than double a standard fare for the same train, so the difference between a 1st and Std ticket is greater than the difference between a Std ticket and £0, I would imagine the Std customer in 1st is in fact more worthy of the guard's time.

Out of context again...

 

[Flamingo]

Out of context again...

Not really...

 

[Starmill]

Hello Flamingo, you may remember me

My point is loosely related to the thread title, but I'm posting it because its rather amusing, if you can overcome the creepiness of it.

Last night, I had a dream about you - no stick with it - I was on an FGW HST which I had boarded at Paddington, holding only the 1-6 travelcard I've just bought for a real trip in the future (from Harrow & Wealdstone, if anyone is interested). I don't recall if I had done this intentionally, but I think I had planned a foray... somewhere on a HST (never been on one) and had forgotten to buy more tickets (which were actually valid) before boarding.

10 minutes into the journey, I was ceased by blind panic when I realised I did not have a valid ticket for the train I was on. So I rushed down the train to find you (not sure how I knew it was you or where you were, but this was a dream). Clear as a bell I remember explaining what I'd done, accompanied with "I've read so many threads saying the best thing to do is go and find the guard" - as you just said on this one. Your response? You bloody fool. People who do this sort of thing should go and sit in coach A, getting out of my way and get off and double back at the next station. You proceeded to charge me £34 for god-knows-what and kicked me off the train at the first stop... which was "New Convent Garden"... by the way.

I kid you not

Best wishes,

Starmill.
Note that this is going to be very embarassing if I have not located the correct forum member whose posts I think inspired the dream. Oh well.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Not really...

I believe it is.

I'm finding it hard to get over the fact that this is a one off situation on a suburban line with no real FC service to talk of or FC customers to talk of. During a situation caused by GA or NR (but not the customer).

Therefore at that moment I think getting a non paying passenger over a poor sod crammed in to a undersized train in a FC vestibule with a SC ticket might be more worthwhile.

To be frank I am bored of explaining this as it doesn't seem to be getting through. It seems the ability to show some sympath for the passenger is being overpowered by pencil sharpening and PF pads.

 

[455driver]

Out of context again...

Dont you mean-

Doesnt fit my agenda?

 

[Flamingo]

Hello Flamingo, you may remember me

My point is loosely related to the thread title, but I'm posting it because its rather amusing, if you can overcome the creepiness of it.

Last night, I had a dream about you - no stick with it - I was on an FGW HST which I had boarded at Paddington, holding only the 1-6 travelcard I've just bought for a real trip in the future (from Harrow & Wealdstone, if anyone is interested). I don't recall if I had done this intentionally, but I think I had planned a foray... somewhere on a HST (never been on one) and had forgotten to buy more tickets (which were actually valid) before boarding.

10 minutes into the journey, I was ceased by blind panic when I realised I did not have a valid ticket for the train I was on. So I rushed down the train to find you (not sure how I knew it was you or where you were, but this was a dream). Clear as a bell I remember explaining what I'd done, accompanied with "I've read so many threads saying the best thing to do is go and find the guard" - as you just said on this one. Your response? You bloody fool. People who do this sort of thing should go and sit in coach A, getting out of my way and get off and double back at the next station. You proceeded to charge me £34 for god-knows-what and kicked me off the train at the first stop... which was "New Convent Garden"... by the way.

I kid you not

Best wishes,

Starmill
Note that this is going to be very embarassing if I have not located the correct forum member whose posts I think inspired the dream. Oh well.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be frank I am bored of explaining this as it doesn't seem to be getting through.

Ditto.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Dont you mean-

Doesnt fit my agenda?

No I mean fit the story in the first place.

I didn't suggest it was something to do regularly but don't let that get in the way of letting you make sharp wee nippy comments.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ditto.

Ditto

 

[Greenback]

Presumably no one will object if the thread is closed now? It seems to have run its course...

 

[455driver]

Please do I am getting dizzy.

 

[Greenback]

Fair enough then!