16-25 railcard v Senior railcard restriction inconsistency

[cloughapike]

How come my sixteen year old daughter has to pay full adult fare to get to school because she cannot use her 16-25 railcard before 10am, whilst my 62 year old friend can get 1/3rd off to commute to his £60k+ job using his Senior railcard without restriction? Yet another example of the elderly rich benefitting at the expense of the poor young? And who/which body determines the rules for railcards? It seems that little has changed since I had a Student Railcard in the '70s.

 

[transportphoto]

I know it's unfair, however at the end of the day, the railway doesn't have to offer any discounts for anyone. So in my opinion we should be thankful for what discounts we do get rather complaining about what we don't get.

They would probably be doing themselves out of business if they didn't offer any discounts atall, but they are obviously profiting through offering the discounts they provide and appropriate research has been conducted to ensure that they are doing what is best for them (selfish I know, but welcome to business).

16-25 railcards can be used before 10am, however a minimum fare of £12 applies to all journeys, it is probably the case that your daughters commute to school is cheaper full fare than £12.00. Railcard discounts can never be applied to season tickets, as these are already heavily discounted.

TP

 

[PIDD]

There are morning peak restrictions on Senior Railcards for journeys wholly within London & South East Network Railcard area.

Obviously this wouldn't come in to play for a lot of people.

 

[SS4]

Perhaps because the situation you described regarding the senior is incredibly rare and most people of that age are far from earning 60k
The railway can't please everyone so it has to do what's best for the majority and accept there will be exceptions like you've mentioned.

Then again it could be a legacy thing from years ago

 

[soil]

My father is in that situation, he earns £60k+, has a senior railcard and also a Freedom Pass, so he actually travels to his well-paid job for free, and when he wants to go outside London by train gets a very discounted fare.

 

[Oswyntail]

I know it's unfair ...

But, as often stated on this forum, what's fairness got to do with it? To put on my harsh hat, and play devil's advocate, which sector should a commercially minded business be trying harder to attract, low-to-nil income with a short-term prospect of decreasing leisure time and spending capacity, or relatively (to the latter sector) higher income with the short-term prospect of increasing leisure time and some spending capacity? Personally, I think the industry should be doing more to encourage young people to get a rail "habit", and reducing restrictions on the YP railcard would be a good thing. But I can understand the commercial reasoning.

 

[34D]

How come my sixteen year old daughter has to pay full adult fare to get to school because she cannot use her 16-25 railcard before 10am, whilst my 62 year old friend can get 1/3rd off to commute to his £60k+ job using his Senior railcard without restriction? Yet another example of the elderly rich benefitting at the expense of the poor young? And who/which body determines the rules for railcards? It seems that little has changed since I had a Student Railcard in the '70s.

There is a trial ongoing at present (on part of FGW) to allow elderly bus passes (ENCTS if you prefer) to be used to get 33% off rail fares between 09:30 and 23:00 (and all day weekends and bank holidays).

A number of us forum regulars are of the opinion that this could replace the senior railcard in due course.

 

[Lampshade]

I've been one of the more vocal opponents of this restriction.

Basically, ATOC don't want people using railcards - it'd be suicide for them to scrap them outright so they make life as difficult as possible for those that have them. They offer a railcard to students, then impose a whacking great minimum fare restriction so they can't be used when students are actually going to be travelling (why else would the restriction be lifted during July and August?).

Yeah there's the whole "students could use them to travel home at weekends" argument but for students who have a job at uni or final years who need access to the library/printing facilities it's about as useful as a new pair of slippers for Douglas Bader.

It was the same with the Two Together Railcard - there was demand for a nationwide railcard, didn't want to offer one so they thought of such a flawed idea for one straight from the Conservative Party school of compromise, no one bought it and now they can dismiss any future suggestion of a national railcard because they tried one and it failed - ATOC hates the passenger.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The restriction on the YP card was around long before privatisation and ATOC, it's the Network card that ATOC has tried to kill off.

 

[Lampshade]

The restriction on the YP card was around long before privatisation and ATOC, it's the Network card that ATOC has tried to kill off.

True, but ATOC raised the minimum fare from £8 to £12.

 

[barrykas]

True, but ATOC raised the minimum fare from £8 to £12.

Actually, they evened out the minimum fare for both the Y-P and Forces Railcards, as it used to be £16.00 for Standard Day (now Anytime Day), Standard Open (now Anytime) and Euro Open Returns, and £8.00 for just about everything else.

So, for example, the undiscounted Anytime Day Return from London to Beaconsfield is currently £14.90. Under the current conditions, that's reduced to £12.00 before 10am (and £9.85 after), whereas you would have got no discount under the old conditions.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Lad Brookes]

It was the same with the Two Together Railcard - there was demand for a nationwide railcard, didn't want to offer one so they thought of such a flawed idea for one straight from the Conservative Party school of compromise, no one bought it and now they can dismiss any future suggestion of a national railcard because they tried one and it failed - ATOC hates the passenger.

So ATOC aren't investigating whether to launch the Two Together Railcard nationally then?

 

[LexyBoy]

So ATOC aren't investigating whether to launch the Two Together Railcard nationally then?

Officially, ATOC will make a decision this year as to whether to launch it nationally based on market research having followed the Two Together trial. However I think it's pretty much accepted that the trial was designed to fail and that there will be no more Two Together Railcards after approx 19/5/13, when the last trial Railcards expire.

 

[wintonian]

Don't forget that there is no minimum for 16-25 railcards fare on advance tickets, , so you could book ahead and have a £9 fare discounted to £6 and the minimum fare does not apply during July and August.

 

[trainophile]

There is a trial ongoing at present (on part of FGW) to allow elderly bus passes (ENCTS if you prefer) to be used to get 33% off rail fares between 09:30 and 23:00 (and all day weekends and bank holidays).

A number of us forum regulars are of the opinion that this could replace the senior railcard in due course.

Not imminently I hope, as this will affect those who are over 60 but not yet of state pension age.

 

[bnm]

A number of us forum regulars are of the opinion that this could replace the senior railcard in due course.

So would that mean an ENCTS card valid on bus and train will be charged for?

Currently ENCTS is free. Senior Railcard is £28 a year.

 

[wintonian]

So would that mean an ENCTS card valid on bus and train will be charged for?

Currently ENCTS is free. Senior Railcard is £28 a year.

ENCTS is provided for free of charge by statute, any extension to allow use on the railway (as already exists to some limited extent in some areas) would be a non-statutory extension and I can't see legislation being presented to provide for this type of extension any-time soon, considering they have only just removed the half price coach travel scheme and ENCTS is currently carrying some amount on controversy in austere times.

 

[cloughapike]

I am not surprised to hear that the Senior railcard might be discontinued in favour of an improved ENCTS, as this will remove the 60-65 anomaly (presumably there because women used to be able to retire at 60, but Senior railcards couldn't be seen to sex discriminate). And what odds are there on the demise of the free ENCTS some time after the end of of this Parliament?

As for young people, child half fares should be just that i.e. for minors below the age of 18, rather than 16. I know that would benefit an increasingly rare animal - the 16/17 year old in full-time employment, but isn't that exactly what the Senior railcard has been affording 60-65s still in work? And yes, it really should be about getting young people to use public transport (and get the habit) rather than their parents running them around by car all the time. My daughter can't believe the transport 'illiteracy' of some of her schoolfriends - who have never travelled by bus or train.

 

[156441]

What's comedy is that I actually see more YP's in the paws of 21-25 year olds on there way to work in the morning. In fact I used to use one myself on my way to a £30k a year job, so it's not just the oldies who are taking advantage!!

 

[maniacmartin]

I personally think the 16-25 railcard is quite decent. Why would a TOC want to discount already rammed trains at peak? The card is there to encourage travel in quieter periods, and without it I'm sure I would have made less journeys up to now, possibly resulting in less revenue overall for the TOCs.

Although I've never really commuted on a 16-25 railcard, I used to commute contra-peak with a Cotswold Railcard. Obviously it wasn't the TOCs' plans for railcards to be used for commuting, as commuters will pay the full price anyway if its not the railcard.

 

[island]

I don't think there are any two Railcards that have precisely the same rules and restrictions.

 

[34D]

So would that mean an ENCTS card valid on bus and train will be charged for?

Currently ENCTS is free. Senior Railcard is £28 a year.

My guess would be that there wouldn't be an annual charge (there is no charge for the pilot, which I believe is available to persons from anywhere in England) and I suspect the justification for any switch would be decrease in income from railcard annual fees more than outweighed by increase in income from tickets sold before 09:30 to persons in the relevant age group.

This is purely a personal hypothesis.

 

[SS4]

What's comedy is that I actually see more YP's in the paws of 21-25 year olds on there way to work in the morning. In fact I used to use one myself on my way to a £30k a year job, so it's not just the oldies who are taking advantage!!

their

The OP was talking about this regarding minimum fare and how YP cards carried a minimum fare whereas a senior railcard did not when both groups need to commute.

 

[Welshman]

There is a trial ongoing at present (on part of FGW) to allow elderly bus passes (ENCTS if you prefer) to be used to get 33% off rail fares between 09:30 and 23:00 (and all day weekends and bank holidays).

A number of us forum regulars are of the opinion that this could replace the senior railcard in due course.

I'm assuming you are including holders of Concessionary Travel Passes issued by the Welsh and Scottish Governments in this too, or would we have to pay full fare on the trains if we dare slip over Offa's Dyke or Hadrian's Wall once our senior railcards cease to exist?

 

[bb21]

Amongst transport companies, child fare often finishes at 16, 14 even with many not that long ago. It is only in recent years that child fares have become more widely available to those up to the age of 18 on buses, for example.

Out of interest, if your daughter is still at school, why is there no local authority help with travel costs?

 

[thedbdiboy]

Basically, ATOC don't want people using railcards - it'd be suicide for them to scrap them outright so they make life as difficult as possible for those that have them.

Hmmm, nice to see a carefully argued evidence based statement there....:roll:

The main Railcards are profitable for the train companies which is why they continue to market them and encourage their use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Officially, ATOC will make a decision this year as to whether to launch it nationally.....however I think it's pretty much accepted that the trial was designed to fail.

All I can say is that a lot of time effort and expense went into it given the assertion above. The decision will not be made by ATOC, it will be made by the TOCs based on the evidence of the trial. It would of course be far more fun to rely on conjecture, opinion and punditry but for some reason they work on the basis of factual evidence.

 

[LexyBoy]

All I can say is that a lot of time effort and expense went into it given the assertion above. The decision will not be made by ATOC, it will be made by the TOCs based on the evidence of the trial. It would of course be far more fun to rely on conjecture, opinion and punditry but for some reason they work on the basis of factual evidence.

Surely ATOC as a trade association is "the TOCs"? It would need agreement between all TOCs to launch a new national Railcard I'd hope (shudders at thought of 2GETH railcard which is only valid on certain TOCs).

I certainly hope it will be launched nationally, but I get the impression from reading around that ATOC were pressured into trialling a new railcard but were reluctant and so came up with something that was less attractive than many were hoping for. As you say, we shall see what the results show...

 

[34D]

I'm assuming you are including holders of Concessionary Travel Passes issued by the Welsh and Scottish Governments in this too, or would we have to pay full fare on the trains if we dare slip over Offa's Dyke or Hadrian's Wall once our senior railcards cease to exist?

Erm no. Had I meant to include Cerdyn Cymru or 60+ scottish National Entitlement card as being eligible for any free travel in England (!!) then I would have stated such.

If the senior railcard does go, you may well get discounted rail travel in Wales if you're lucky.

 

[Mojo]

For people living in the Network area, the 1625 Railcard is better than the Senior Railcard as at least you can use it before 10am, albeit subject to a £12 Minimum fare, which a significant number of tickets exceed. Although it cannot be used in First except for Advances.

 

[yorksrob]

Hmmm, nice to see a carefully argued evidence based statement there....:roll:

The main Railcards are profitable for the train companies which is why they continue to market them and encourage their use.

Are you suggesting that there are railcards which aren't profitable for the TOC's ?