Under 10 Zip Norwood Jct-Canada Water

[Surreytraveller]

My child was charged £1.20 on an under 10 Zip Oyster to go Norwood junction - Canada Water (touching the reader there) - Canary Wharf via gateline - DLR to Cutty Sark. An under 10 Zip should be free, but was charged £1.20. Must be something wrong with the way people are charged using the East London Line?

 

[34D]

My child was charged £1.20 on an under 10 Zip Oyster to go Norwood junction - Canada Water (touching the reader there) - Canary Wharf via gateline - DLR to Cutty Sark. An under 10 Zip should be free, but was charged £1.20. Must be something wrong with the way people are charged using the East London Line?

I agree with you that such should be free. Source

One of our members here is an oyster expert, so perhaps he can offer some advice. I'd certainly say to email the helpdesk, request a refund, and ask when the issue will be corrected.

 

[MikeWh]

My child was charged £1.20 on an under 10 Zip Oyster to go Norwood junction - Canada Water (touching the reader there) - Canary Wharf via gateline - DLR to Cutty Sark. An under 10 Zip should be free, but was charged £1.20. Must be something wrong with the way people are charged using the East London Line?

According to the single fare finder there are no TfL only routes from Norwood Junction to Cutty Sark. It seems to be assumed that you will always travel via Greenwich and thus incur NR charges. Go one station north to Island Gardens and the default fare is free for 5-10 year olds. To get round this the child will need to split the journey either by touching out and in again at Canada Water or touching on a bus between the Canary Wharf stations.

 

[Be3G]

How do those Zip Oysters work with respect to touching in and out – are they like season tickets in that there's no absolute requirement to touch in/out when on a journey covered by the ticket? If so, perhaps an easier solution would be to simply not touch in or out for the DLR portion of the journey.

 

[KingBruss]

As the journey included an out-of-system transfer between Jubilee line and DLR at Canary Wharf, if TfL say they do not recognise a TfL only route from Norwood Junction to Cutty Sark, surely you can counter this by saying that the actual journey was from Norwood Jcn to Canary Wharf (Jubilee) and then a separate journey was made from Canary Wharf (DLR) to Cutty Sark.

Two separate journeys, rather than one journey with an out-of-system transfer.

 

[MikeWh]

How do those Zip Oysters work with respect to touching in and out – are they like season tickets in that there's no absolute requirement to touch in/out when on a journey covered by the ticket? If so, perhaps an easier solution would be to simply not touch in or out for the DLR portion of the journey.

If you're with an adult then you could do this, unless the child looks over 10, as there is no need to use a zip card on TfL rail services when accompanied. If the child was alone, or with slightly older (11-15) siblings then a card would be required and touching in and out would also be necessary. It's not a season ticket, just that the fare table for 5-10 shows zero as the fare whenever a journey is entirely on TfL rail.

 

[34D]

If you're with an adult then you could do this, unless the child looks over 10, as there is no need to use a zip card on TfL rail services when accompanied. If the child was alone, or with slightly older (11-15) siblings then a card would be required and touching in and out would also be necessary. It's not a season ticket, just that the fare table for 5-10 shows zero as the fare whenever a journey is entirely on TfL rail.

Does the mantra "you must always touch in and touch out to avoid being charged the maximum cash fare" apply to these zip cards too?

 

[MikeWh]

Does the mantra "you must always touch in and touch out to avoid being charged the maximum cash fare" apply to these zip cards too?

Yes, definitely. I'm claiming back a refund on my 10-year-old's card at the moment after a continuation journey caused MJT to be exceeded. The only dispensation is that if touch in is at a TfL rail station then no maximum cash fare is deducted, while at other off-peak times it is only the 75p flat fare.

 

[Surreytraveller]

As the journey included an out-of-system transfer between Jubilee line and DLR at Canary Wharf, if TfL say they do not recognise a TfL only route from Norwood Junction to Cutty Sark, surely you can counter this by saying that the actual journey was from Norwood Jcn to Canary Wharf (Jubilee) and then a separate journey was made from Canary Wharf (DLR) to Cutty Sark.

Two separate journeys, rather than one journey with an out-of-system transfer.

Seems pointless having pink route validators and gatelines to prove whose services you've used if they're going to ignore them and still overcharge you!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does the mantra "you must always touch in and touch out to avoid being charged the maximum cash fare" apply to these zip cards too?

Must be the opposite with Zip cards - "You must not touch in and out in order to get the free travel you're entitled to in the first place"!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to the single fare finder there are no TfL only routes from Norwood Junction to Cutty Sark. It seems to be assumed that you will always travel via Greenwich and thus incur NR charges. Go one station north to Island Gardens and the default fare is free for 5-10 year olds. To get round this the child will need to split the journey either by touching out and in again at Canada Water or touching on a bus between the Canary Wharf stations.

But surely the single fare finder isn't applicable if you're using only TfL services? It is only applicable if using NR? Would a TfL staff pass not be valid for the journey, then? And do TfL expect you to check on the single fare finder everytime before you use a Zip card in case they don't recognise the journey you intend to undertake, even though its free?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thinking about it, I was charged £0.60 adult PRIV for the same journey. Coming back (getting on at Island Gardens after using the Greenwich foot tunnel) I was charged £0.35. My outward journey began about 09.10 in the morning, so I assumed this was just the peak fare. Was I overcharged too (are the old fares available for scrutiny on TfL's website?). If so I shall be claiming a refund of 5 or 10p or whatever it will be!

 

[MikeWh]

But surely the single fare finder isn't applicable if you're using only TfL services? It is only applicable if using NR? Would a TfL staff pass not be valid for the journey, then? And do TfL expect you to check on the single fare finder everytime before you use a Zip card in case they don't recognise the journey you intend to undertake, even though its free?

I can see what you're saying, but yes, the single fare finder is applicable, even if the fare is zero. The single fare finder uses the same database as the Oyster charging system. When you touch in that station is recorded as your start station. When you touch out the journey is completed and charged as appropriate. If the touch out is part of an OSI (eg Canary Wharf) and touch in occurs within the proscribed time at the linked station then the original start station is copied into the next journey slot and the fare for the first part of the journey is reset to zero, although it still retains a record of what has been charged. If you touch on a pink validator (eg Canada Water) it stores that location as a via point for later. It also does that at some OSIs (eg Shadwell LO to Shadwell DLR). When you touch out again it looks up the fare for your overall journey, sees if any via points are relevant, and charges a new fare if what is now required is more than what was previously charged. This repeats at every touch out until you end up not using an OSI.

In your case it will have charged nothing at Canary Wharf because Norwood Junction to Canary Wharf is free as long as the pink validator was touched at Canada Water (setting a via point) or the Shadwell LO-DLR OSI was used. However, when you then get to Cutty Sark it decides that neither of those via points are relevant becasue the database doesn't include journeys going that way. It therefore uses the default fare which is now 75p off-peak for a 5-10 Zip card holder.

Having said all that, I agree that as a means of saving 75p the route you took is reasonable. I suggest that you email the helpdesk and ask them to consider adding it. In the meantime, if you have to make the journey again then take either of the avoiding actions I suggested to fool the system into not charging you.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Thanks for your help, Mike! So, in other words, the database is wrong? It should take the Canada Water pink reader into account for this journey, then? And treat Canary Wharf as a pink reader too?

Funny thing is, if we'd gone via London Bridge/Greenwich on SouthEastern, it would have been free on a staff ticket anyway! Lol.

God knows what the public think of these anomolies. But then again, they probably don't even realise they are occurring. When I queried why the Zip had stopped working, the staff in the booking office were at a loss to work out how I had incurred a negative balance.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for your help, Mike! So, in other words, the database is wrong? It should take the Canada Water pink reader into account for this journey, then? And treat Canary Wharf as a pink reader too?

Once you've used either Canada Water or Shadwell as a via point you probably don't need Canary Wharf as well. The only reason I mentioned it in the workarounds is because you have to walk between stations anyway, and there are buses going nearby. Touching on a bus is a well known way of splitting a rail journey such that many Central London drivers are quite used to people getting on, touching their card, then getting straight off again.

When I queried why the Zip had stopped working, the staff in the booking office were at a loss to work out how I had incurred a negative balance.

Hmmm, that's disappointing, but not surprising. It didn't take me very long to guess what might have happened, and not a lot more to confirm what the single fare finder said.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Hmmm, that's disappointing, but not surprising. It didn't take me very long to guess what might have happened, and not a lot more to confirm what the single fare finder said.

Its the whole reason I touched at Canada Water, so the system knew I went that way, as i realised the default fare (although I hadn't checked) could well be London Bridge/Greenwich! The only reason I hadn't considered this is what I'd been charged is because I touched at Canada Water! If Canada Water is such a well-known pink reader that the database ignores, you would have thought that staff would be more aware of it.

 

[34D]

Seems pointless having pink route validators and gatelines to prove whose services you've used if they're going to ignore them and still overcharge you!
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Must be the opposite with Zip cards - "You must not touch in and out in order to get the free travel you're entitled to in the first place"!

Agree with you 100%. Let's get a probing letter aent to TfL, asking for a date when their system will be updated so to avoid this mistake occurring again.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Touching on a bus is a well known way of splitting a rail journey such that many Central London drivers are quite used to people getting on, touching their card, then getting straight off again.

Its funny how the Oyster system isn't clever enough to work out which way people have gone, despite OSI and pink readers. Of course, swiping in on a bus is ok if its free, but if I had done that, it would have charged me £1.35!

And its daft how a journey needs to be split by tapping in on a bus to make it cheaper - the whole point of OSI is to make a journey cheaper, is it not?!

 

[MikeWh]

Agree with you 100%. Let's get a probing letter aent to TfL, asking for a date when their system will be updated so to avoid this mistake occurring again.

Its funny how the Oyster system isn't clever enough to work out which way people have gone, despite OSI and pink readers. Of course, swiping in on a bus is ok if its free, but if I had done that, it would have charged me £1.35!

And its daft how a journey needs to be split by tapping in on a bus to make it cheaper - the whole point of OSI is to make a journey cheaper, is it not?!

The fact is that someone has to decide where to draw the line between reasonable and unreasonable. If the database included every possible permutation for going between two stations it would be so large that the system wouldn't work properly. It's not actually a mistake as such, just that the system hasn't been told to recognise Norwood Junction to Cutty Sark via Canada Water. That is three trains, as would be Norwood Junction to Clapham Junction to Stratford to Cutty Sark, which no-one would consider doing unless they were bashing the lines.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Can Norwood Junction - Cutty Sark be done in less than three trains, though? If London Bridge - Tower Gateway was an OSI, then I suppose it could be! But if you were going to walk London Bridge - Tower Gateway, you might as well walk from Greenwich or Maze Hill to the Cutty Sark!

Perhaps National Rail should have stayed out of the Oyster system unless they were going to properly integrate the fares...

But I would have thought that plenty of passengers would be actually using the East London to get to Docklands stations, so may be they actually need to get the system to recognise this route?

 

[MikeWh]

Can Norwood Junction - Cutty Sark be done in less than three trains, though?

No. But the fastest route takes about 15 minutes plus waiting between trains, probably about 30-40 minutes total. How long did your route take?

But I would have thought that plenty of passengers would be actually using the East London to get to Docklands stations, so may be they actually need to get the system to recognise this route?

They have as far south as Island Gardens. It's only the stations between there and Lewisham that assume you'll use Southeastern.

 

[Surreytraveller]

No. But the fastest route takes about 15 minutes plus waiting between trains, probably about 30-40 minutes total. How long did your route take?

The journey history says 09.09 touch in (although train was 09.13) and touch out at Cutty Sark was 10.05, so travelling time from boarding the first train was 52 minutes.

Checking National Rail Enquiries, it says the first train from Norwood via London Bridge would be 09.25, arriving Greenwich 09.59. It is unlikely (but possible) I would have therefore got to Cutty sark any earlier going the default route!
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They have as far south as Island Gardens. It's only the stations between there and Lewisham that assume you'll use Southeastern.

Even if you touch at Canada Water and Canary Wharf! Lol. Surely adding an extra couple of stations to the list isn't going to cause the system to collapse?

 

[bicbasher]

Not ideal I know, but I'd get off at Island Gardens and walk along the Greenwich Foot Tunnel instead, which is part of the whole visiting Greenwich experience personally.

 

[34D]

The fact is that someone has to decide where to draw the line between reasonable and unreasonable. If the database included every possible permutation for going between two stations it would be so large that the system wouldn't work properly. It's not actually a mistake as such, just that the system hasn't been told to recognise Norwood Junction to Cutty Sark via Canada Water. That is three trains, as would be Norwood Junction to Clapham Junction to Stratford to Cutty Sark, which no-one would consider doing unless they were bashing the lines.

Surely you agree that our chap should complain and request reimbursement?

The TfL link (posted earlier) clearly states free if your journey is on green routes. Not green if journey on green routes but excluding journeys we think should involve a bit of red, even if they actually don't?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Here here! Obvioulsy TfL's smart tickets are only as smart as the routes programmed in and missing out the point of pink validators!

 

[bb21]

Here here! Obvioulsy TfL's smart tickets are only as smart as the routes programmed in and missing out the point of pink validators!

Isn't that true for any system? The system can only process what is programmed in them anyway.

 

[yorkie]

Before getting too worked up about TfL, let's give them a chance to add this route to the database. Providing we all contact them each time such a problem is encountered, and providing TfL add those that are not unreasonable, then that would seem to be acceptable to me.

Surreytraveller - let us know how you get on

Oyster PAYG is very complex and, thanks to MikeWh (and others) I now feel that I have sufficient knowledge to include Oyster PAYG issues in the Fares workshops that we hold in the London area. If anyone is interested in learning more and sharing experiences feel free to add your forum username to the Doodle.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Just to update...

Received an offer of a refund today. They claim I was charged due to touching the reader twice at Cutty Sark.

However, the journey history I obtained does not mention a second touch at Curry Sark, but clearly states 'Norwood junction to Cutty Sark - route chosen Canada Water £1.20'. Even if it was touched twice, surely it shouldn't have been chargeable as it was a TfL only station??

Either they cannot be bothered to investigate it and are fobbing me off, or they are deliberately lying to me!

 

[MikeWh]

Just to update...

Received an offer of a refund today. They claim I was charged due to touching the reader twice at Cutty Sark.

However, the journey history I obtained does not mention a second touch at Curry Sark, but clearly states 'Norwood junction to Cutty Sark - route chosen Canada Water £1.20'. Even if it was touched twice, surely it shouldn't have been chargeable as it was a TfL only station??

Either they cannot be bothered to investigate it and are fobbing me off, or they are deliberately lying to me!

I doubt that they are deliberately lying to you, but they almost certainly don't understand what has happened. Can you upload the journey history? I'm intrigued by the "route chosen Canada Water" bit as that isn't an alternative route according to the fare finder. I'm guessing that it included it because you touched there but ignored it when calculating the fare at Cutty Sark.

Also, a 5-10 Zip card doesn't deduct any balance on touch in at a TfL station, which is what a double touch would cause.

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps they don't have particularly clever people working on the emails. I've heard it's best to phone them. When I called, I spoke to someone who was very good and knew his stuff.

 

[Surreytraveller]

hi

Thanks for your response. I agree that they probably just don't understand what has happened, rather than an attempt to make me believe that I am at fault!

I obviously don't want to upload the document for privacy reasons, but here is a copy and paste of the relevant part:

09:09 Incomplete Tube/DLR Norwood Junction SR 0.00 0.00 N 0.00 0.00
09:09 - 10:05 Tube/DLR Norwood Junction SR - Cutty Sark (via
Canary Wharf DLR) 1.20 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
09:40 Route Chosen Canada Water 0.00 1.20 0.00 0.00
13:39 Enter Station Island Gardens 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
13:40 Enter Station Island Gardens 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
13:51 Enter Station Heron Quays 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
14:05 Enter Station Canada Water 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
14:39 Pay as you go top-up 0.00 1.20 1.20 0.00

For some reason, it thinks there was a double-touch at Norwood Junction at the beginning, but the £1.20 wasn't deducted there. Obviously all those other touch-ins Island Gardens onwards were caused by the Zip Card double-bleeping before I found a staffed station to tell me why it wouldn't work. Surely a double-bleep and red light shouldn't count as a touch-in, especially at Canary Wharf where the barrier didn't open anyway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps they don't have particularly clever people working on the emails. I've heard it's best to phone them. When I called, I spoke to someone who was very good and knew his stuff.

Or they are over worked, and its quicker and more cost effective just to give me my £1.20 rather than look into what happened!

I always prefer to write or email rather than phone, as then I have documentary evidence of what's been discussed.

I'll have to look into whether I can have a child priv discount put onto it - at least that will save filling in a box for silly little journeys, and will mean that anomolies will only cost 30p rather than £1.20!

 

[MikeWh]

Arghh! Is that the printout from the card obtained at a tube station? Do you have an online account for that card so you can see all the touch history for the last 8 weeks?

What I can tell from that is that the first two lines relate to the journey. The first one probably should say Norwood Junction to Canary Wharf and I'm unsure why it doesn't. The second one is for the whole journey. The third item acknowledges the pink reader touch at Canada Water even though it wasn't relevant to the journey. The other attempted touch-ins are recorded on the card but wouldn't appear on the online journey history. It's unfortunate that you tried so many times because you've filled up the slots on the card and 'lost' the early data from the day.

Unfortunately if you haven't already got online access then we'll never see the history for that day because they don't backdate.

 

[Surreytraveller]

No - its the pdf emailed to me...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
31/Dec/12 09:09
Incomplete
Tube/DLR Norwood Junction SR 0.00 0.00 N 0.00 0.00
31/Dec/12 09:09 - 10:05 Tube/DLR
Norwood Junction SR - Cutty Sark (via
Canary Wharf DLR) 1.20 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
31/Dec/12 09:40 Route Chosen Canada Water 0.00 1.20 0.00 0.00
31/Dec/12 13:39 Enter Station Island Gardens 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
31/Dec/12 13:40 Enter Station Island Gardens 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
31/Dec/12 13:51 Enter Station Heron Quays 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
31/Dec/12 14:05 Enter Station Canada Water 0.00 1.20 N 0.00 -1.20
31/Dec/12 14:39
Pay as you go
top-up 0.00 1.20 1.20 0.00

Above is the copy from the pdf - my previous post was just a tidy-up of it

If its any help, here is my journey history from my card:

09:09 - 10:05 Norwood Junction to Cutty Sark DLR £0.60
£10.50
10:05 Touch out, Cutty Sark DLR +£0.55 £10.50
09:53 Touch in, Canary Wharf DLR £0.60 £9.95
09:48 Touch out, Canary Wharf [London Underground] +£1.20 £10.55
09:41 Touched pink card reader, Canada Water £0.00 £9.35
09:09 Touch in, Norwood Junction £1.75 £9.35

Obviously same route, but half my child's fare!