Electric Locomotives.....What is the future?

[Photohunter71]

Just reading an article about the GEML and the proposal for coaching stock plus a new electric Locomotive. With surely class 86s & 90s coming to the end of their working lives sometime soon and 92s not far behind in that respect ,it would be costly to replace the electric gear inside the bodyshells therefore a new loco would make sense.

However will there be orders for such types to haul both passenger and freight traffic?

Freightliner and DRS so far are as already mentioned in other threads getting new diesel traction will they also be placing orders for Prima 2, Traxx and Vectron electrics?

Hopefully a good mix of diesels and electrics will be the outcome.

Class 68s and Traxx on both freight and passenger would make for interesting captures and would surely be welcome additions to our tracks?

 

[dave59]

Maybe the 86's are coming to an end but the 92's surely not? The 90's are also becoming increasingly reliable thanks to inexpensive modifications and 87's are still active albeit in another country. FOC's need to be incentivised to use as much electric haulage as possible assuming that is the traction policy of a greener DfT.

It was a very costly excercise to re-engine the entire HST fleet so why not similar level of investment in the ex-BR electric fleet rather than exporting them? DRS seem the most averse to using electrics - what reason did they have for not continuing with 87's? ...And they are now using 2X66 for the WCML Tesco train!

 

[317666]

Perhaps making FOCs pay full diesel tax would be an incentive to switch to electric traction. Unless they already do of course! (Although then again, that might be a bit unfair for unelectrified routes where there's really little choice but to use diesel traction.)

 

[HSTEd]

Mixed traffic locomotives are a thing of the past

But very high powered co-co freight units could potentially obtain 10,000hp with 75-80mph top speeds.
Which will make for very interesting freight service possibilities.
(Very fast moving very heavy freight trains)

 

[anthony263]

Just reading an article about the GEML and the proposal for coaching stock plus a new electric Locomotive,,With surely class 86's/90's coming to the end of their working lives sometime soon and 92's not far behind in that respect,it would be costly to replace the electric gear inside the bodyshells therefore a new loco would make sense. However will there be orders for such types to haul both passenger and freight traffic? Freightliner and DRS so far are as already mentioned in other threads getting new diesel traction will they also be placing orders for Prima 2,Traxx and Vectron electrics? Hopefully a good mix of diesels and electrics will be the outcome.Class 68's and Traxx on both freight and passenger would make for interesting captures,60's (we already have)/68's/70's and whatever other new diesels we will get as well as the 3 electrics from Alstom,Bombardier and Siemens would surely be welcome additions to our tracks?

To answer your question I wouldnt be surprised to see a new fleet of electric locomotives being ordered. My money would be on DRS as there was talk of them speaking to Volosh about an electric version of the class 68 diesels they have ordered.

With the electric spine linking Southampton to the midlands there maybe an opportunity for DRS and GBRF etc to exploit


It has gone quiet about the UK version of Traxx although I would like to hope there is work going on behind the scenes.

Alstom have already trialed a version of their Prima 2 through the chanel tunel so there could be a possibility of them working freight through the tunnel and perhaps if they can be cleared along certain parts of the UK rail network.

DBS might be more willing to use electric locomotives if more routes were wired perhaps we could see electric hauled freights in south wales if the relief lines as well as Llanwern steelworks and Margam yard are wired.

 

[87015]

Mixed traffic locomotives are a thing of the past

But very high powered co-co freight units could potentially obtain 10,000hp with 75-80mph top speeds.
Which will make for very interesting freight service possibilities.
(Very fast moving very heavy freight trains)

You don't need a co-co, the rest of Europe gets on by perfectly well with modern Bo-Bo electrics on far more testing trains and routes than we do - very few Co-Co designs have been built in recent decades as a Bo-Bo electric can do everything required.

 

[LE Greys]

You don't need a co-co, the rest of Europe gets on by perfectly well with modern Bo-Bo electrics on far more testing trains and routes than we do - very few Co-Co designs have been built in recent decades as a Bo-Bo electric can do everything required.

How does their route availability and adhesion compare to ours?

To run with the Co-Co design, what we basically need is a moderne equivalent of the 92, but with the multiple-voltage equipment removed and a 'last mile' diesel engine put in. Most of the time, this would just be used for shunting or trip-working (Ipswich-Felixstowe for example). I believe I've brought this one up a few times. There's probably no reason why a Bo-Bo design can't do the same. After all, 90s handle such traffic regularly. However, I suspect that some of our trackwork is a bit light to handle something with a heavy axle load as well as a diesel engine and fuel without it reaching Class 67 loads. If you're just going for a straight-electric, then a Bo-Bo would work just as well, but that means you would still need to shunt the train into the docks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The main user should be Freightliner, both for current services and the rapidly growing demand for intermodal trains between electric-enabled depots.
But they don't seem much interested. Last time I looked they wanted wires from Nuneaton to Felixstowe rather than Southampton.

There are still too many class 66s under the wires on the WCML.
You would have thought every train to/from Trafford Park/Mossend would be electric-hauled, but hardly any are.
By the time they get into an electric frame of mind, all the current locos will have rusted solid.
Meanwhile, Tesco's "Less CO2" train continues to generate more CO2 with DRS diesel haulage.

The FOCs only ever seem to want penny numbers of locos, which doesn't suit the manufacturers who will have the job of down-sizing a big brand for the UK.
I think the DfT will have to sponsor an electric freight programme with the FOCs for new locos to appear.

 

[HSTEd]

You don't need a co-co, the rest of Europe gets on by perfectly well with modern Bo-Bo electrics on far more testing trains and routes than we do - very few Co-Co designs have been built in recent decades as a Bo-Bo electric can do everything required.

European freight trains are relatively light, they have no requirement for the massive tractive effort required for the very long trains that freightliner and other operators want to run.

And the most testing freight route I know of, hauling very heavy trains over the Great Belt route with its sustained 2% gradients, has modern Co-Cos built by Siemens on there modular platform.

And the channel shuttles are six axle locomotives too.
(The only freight dedicated electrics I can think of other than the Great Belt locomotives are in New Zealand, and also have six axles).

 

[shedman]

Not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere that DRS are looking into a deal with GBRf over a 66/92 swap deal or some sorts. I also hear from a very good source (yes I know we hear that all the time!) there is an option for an electric version of the 68 which is being taken quite serious. For those of you who know DRS they play their cards very close to their chest about what they have planned so please excuse me for not saying too much

 

[87015]

European freight trains are relatively light, they have no requirement for the massive tractive effort required for the very long trains that freightliner and other operators want to run.

And the most testing freight route I know of, hauling very heavy trains over the Great Belt route with its sustained 2% gradients, has modern Co-Cos built by Siemens on there modular platform.

And the channel shuttles are six axle locomotives too.
(The only freight dedicated electrics I can think of other than the Great Belt locomotives are in New Zealand, and also have six axles).

We don't have much in the way of sustained 2% / 1 in 50 gradients though and the EGs are very much the exception rather than the rule - 13 locos against thousands of Bo-Bos which are working freight day in, day out. Guess what happens when those very same Great Belt trains arrive at Padborg and change locos from the Co-Co to ... DB Bo-Bo 185/189 type locos.

Most of Europe has a 775m ruling freight for freight, same as we are likely to get any time soon, and if a single Traxx Bo-Bo can cope with the Bergensbanen I'm pretty sure Shap won't be a problem. Certainly won't crawl over the top like a 66...
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How does their route availability and adhesion compare to ours?

All seem to rock up around 85-90 tons so pretty similar to 90s. Seem to be able to get away pretty sharply from what I've seen, although when a Taurus does slip and go back down the musical scale its quite entertaining!

 

[tbtc]

I'm not sure about new locos on the GEML (if there are longer distance EMUs ordered for the newly electrified Transpennine lines/ MML/ Falkirk High later this decade then a follow on order for the Norwich services may make more sense than ordering around fifteen specific locos on the GEML).

There is the issue of the Caledonian Sleeper though (presumably the Cornish Sleeper is going to remain diesel hauled when the GWML is electrified as far as Bristol)

 

[HSTEd]

We don't have much in the way of sustained 2% / 1 in 50 gradients though and the EGs are very much the exception rather than the rule - 13 locos against thousands of Bo-Bos which are working freight day in, day out. Guess what happens when those very same Great Belt trains arrive at Padborg and change locos from the Co-Co to ... DB Bo-Bo 185/189 type locos.

Most of Europe has a 775m ruling freight for freight, same as we are likely to get any time soon, and if a single Traxx Bo-Bo can cope with the Bergensbanen I'm pretty sure Shap won't be a problem. Certainly won't crawl over the top like a 66...

As I understand it many Freightliners currently require doubled up Bo-Bos to move them.
The shorter workings that can be operated by single Class 90s can also be operated by the re-geared Class 86 (86501 I believe?) which has less power than the Class 90.
This would tend to imply that the Freightliners are tractive effort rather than power limited.
Trains currently worked by single Class 90s could be increased in length by 50% if they were operated by very high power co-co locomotives.

I tend to see a lot of pictures of European freight trains being operated by multiple units as well.....

 

[Photohunter71]

I wouldn't think an electric variant of the class 68 would be necessary.There are 3 electric types on offer to the UK from Bombardier,Siemens and Alstom.It would make perfect sense to go with one or all three of those types on offer as well as cheaper!

 

[shedman]

With DRS already having the order running with Vosslah or whatever they're called I believe there will be some sort of agreement/deal to take an electric variant if required. I'm pretty sure things are now becoming apparent where an electric loco would be useful in the near future for DRS..... someone will say it....... There's lots I'd like to say. Look at the Cumbrian coast, the first loco hauled set will only be the start

 

[D365]

Not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere that DRS are looking into a deal with GBRf over a 66/92 swap deal or some sorts. I also hear from a very good source (yes I know we hear that all the time!) there is an option for an electric version of the 68 which is being taken quite serious. For those of you who know DRS they play their cards very close to their chest about what they have planned so please excuse me for not saying too much

The former sounds like a good plan, the two-in-one 92s could be useful if they are -hypothetically- used on nuclear trains. FOCs really should make better use of existing locos before splashing out, at times unnecessarily.

All seem to rock up around 85-90 tons so pretty similar to 90s. Seem to be able to get away pretty sharply from what I've seen, although when a Taurus does slip and go back down the musical scale its quite entertaining!

[youtube]0fN1B2mNtSU[/youtube]
"A bit of finger-slip on the instrument"

[youtube]cdy3G_an65s[/youtube]
"0-120km/h ≈ 15s, light engine"

Maybe I should join RAGNARØKR in the fight for LHCS just to hear these on British rails (no puns intended)! I wonder what the next-generation locos - and EMUs - will sound like. And who will be the first to Sparta-ise them?

However, we do have locos of 86, 90 (for mixed use) and particularly 92s in store, which should do us well for a while?

 

[anthony263]

We certainly need an electric loco like those in this country

 

[Monty]

The Railway Magazine has a computer generated image of a Bombardier Traxx locomotive redesigned to the UK loading gauge. Dubbed the class 93 by Eversholt Rail who are proposing that it could place class 91s on the ECML and 90s on the GEML when the time comes. The claim being made that these locos other than being more efficient is that up to 20 minutes could be shaved off journeys on the ECML with their superior acceleration, a pretty bold claim in my opinion!

I doubt much will come of this but, still a handsome looking 'what if'.

 

[ash39]

I don't see the need for new electric locos when we have so many in store. The 90's & 92's can't be that far from working order surely? Double-head with Class 90's if tractive effort is a problem, like they sometimes did on the Tesco express when it was ran by DBS and they didn't have a 92 available. There's certainly enough spare to do so and I can't believe it would be cheaper to buy new than repair what we have which is only around 20 years old.

 

[Monty]

I don't see the need for new electric locos when we have so many in store. The 90's & 92's can't be that far from working order surely? Double-head with Class 90's if tractive effort is a problem, like they sometimes did on the Tesco express when it was ran by DBS and they didn't have a 92 available. There's certainly enough spare to do so and I can't believe it would be cheaper to buy new than repair what we have which is only around 20 years old.

The problem is that the majority of stored electrics are either owned or leased by DBS and they are unwilling to release them to other operators for obvious reasons. So the other FOCs have no choice but to look elsewhere for traction.

 

[wbbminerals]

The problem is that the majority of stored electrics are either owned or leased by DBS and they are unwilling to release them to other operators for obvious reasons. So the other FOCs have no choice but to look elsewhere for traction.

It is a shame that they are owned outright by DB, who only sell things on when they are ready for scrapping.

 

[Photohunter71]

It is cost effective to buy new than to repair if it is older than 20 years etc.Providing regular maintenance is carried out, a machine it will last for a while, however the inevitable will happen. If you have an old car the repair costs soar making it inefficient to keep running, therefore buying a new one is much more cost effective than repairing what is technically a piece of scrap metal or tomorrows cola cans.The same is true of all machinery.Parts become worn out,parts become obsolete and therefore brand new and often cheaper is best to buy rather than to carry on making do and mending.

 

[D365]

It is cost effective to buy new than to repair if it is older than 20 years etc.Providing regular maintenance is carried out, a machine it will last for a while, however the inevitable will happen. If you have an old car the repair costs soar making it inefficient to keep running, therefore buying a new one is much more cost effective than repairing what is technically a piece of scrap metal or tomorrows cola cans.The same is true of all machinery.Parts become worn out, parts become obsolete and therefore brand new and often cheaper is best to buy rather than to carry on making do and mending.

It's not often as simple as that. For example, read here about 365s vs older EMUs, but mind the inverted colours

 

[ash39]

The Class 92's in particular cost around £3m each to build from what I recall, so even a simplified version not built to run on 3rd rail/channel tunnel would, I imagine, cost an awful lot of money to buy. Considering most of the fleet is serviceable, I can't see how it can be more cost effective to buy new than reinstate the lot, although I appreciate where you're coming from.

The problem is, as stated above, DBS won't release them to other operators that perhaps have the traffic that could utilise them (DRS on the Tesco Express for example). I think there has to be some intervention from somewhere, as business reasons is not a fair reason to let useful resources rot away whilst less economical traction has to be bought and used, all at environmental cost. Whilst there probably isn't currently a demand for the entire fleet of 90's and 92's to be in use, regardless of operator, there may be in the near future when the next phase of electrification is complete and it would be ridiculous for GBRF, DRS etc to have to buy new.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

It is cost effective to buy new than to repair if it is older than 20 years etc.Providing regular maintenance is carried out, a machine it will last for a while, however the inevitable will happen. If you have an old car the repair costs soar making it inefficient to keep running, therefore buying a new one is much more cost effective than repairing what is technically a piece of scrap metal or tomorrows cola cans.The same is true of all machinery.Parts become worn out,parts become obsolete and therefore brand new and often cheaper is best to buy rather than to carry on making do and mending.

Due to its necessary robustness, railway equipment lasts several times longer than consumer products. As long as the parts that are subject to wear are easily replaceable, then there is no reason why costs should soar. The real problem is that the pace of technical development makes some things obsolescent before they are worn out, but if the basic design is sound, then half-life major refurbishment or re-engineering programmes deal with that. And designs should have built into them the possibility of cascading for less profitable routes when they have been amortised.

Some things have had remarkably short lives - the 1983 tube stock comes to mind and the District Line stock looks likely to run for less than the 50 years which seems to be the norm for London Underground stock. And other things OUGHT to have had short lives, such as the Pacers, which are still going strong to a lot of people's annoyance.
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The Class 92's in particular cost around £3m each to build from what I recall, so even a simplified version not built to run on 3rd rail/channel tunnel would, I imagine, cost an awful lot of money to buy.

That is not an awful lot, relatively speaking. An IEP or Pendolino vehicle costs about £2.7 million.
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Mixed traffic locomotives are a thing of the past

But very high powered co-co freight units could potentially obtain 10,000hp with 75-80mph top speeds.
Which will make for very interesting freight service possibilities.
(Very fast moving very heavy freight trains)

It is very inefficient to move heavy freight at high speeds. They used to run very heavy freight trains by keeping them rolling at 15 mph. A shovelful of coal would get a train from the Nottingham coal fields to London. I exaggerate to illustrate the principle. Nowadays we run trainloads of stone aggregate up the Berks and Hants line at 70 mph for no other reason than to keep them out of the way of the passenger trains on the same route, which uses a lot more fuel and bashes the infrastructure. In the US and the former Soviet, very heavy freight is still run slowly. It is not worth running it fast unless the freight consists of high value items.
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You don't need a co-co, the rest of Europe gets on by perfectly well with modern Bo-Bo electrics on far more testing trains and routes than we do - very few Co-Co designs have been built in recent decades as a Bo-Bo electric can do everything required.

This is out and about quite a lot.

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Seem to be able to get away pretty sharply from what I've seen, although when a Taurus does slip and go back down the musical scale its quite entertaining!

Is that slipping or is just the 3-phase inverters? Networkers make much the same sound at London Bridge, as does some of the more recent Tube stock.

 

[HSTEd]

A shovelful of coal would get a train from the Nottingham coal fields to London. I exaggerate to illustrate the principle. Nowadays we run trainloads of stone aggregate up the Berks and Hants line at 70 mph for no other reason than to keep them out of the way of the passenger trains on the same route, which uses a lot more fuel and bashes the infrastructure. In the US and the former Soviet, very heavy freight is still run slowly. It is not worth running it fast unless the freight consists of high value items.

High speed freight running is a necessity in the UK as you yourself admit.

Very high power electric units will enable it to be run at those speeds far more economically than at present (lower fuel and maintenance costs et al)
Unless you propose axing huge numbers of passenger services so we can have drag freights all over the place again?

 

[jopsuk]

In the US ... very heavy freight is still run slowly.

Yes, and the few Amtrak passenger services that are grudgingly allowed on the freight network are low frequency, slow and unreliable- I've heard that on the trans continental routes it is very easy for a train to pick up a 24hr delay.

Where lines are run as passenger routes first, freight second, the US is capable of running proper high frequency reliable passenger services with surprisingly high top speeds. Does anyone know if any freight is carried on the lines the Acela Express uses- and if so, I'd imagine it's run at speeds similar to those used in the UK, yes?

 

[HSTEd]

Where lines are run as passenger routes first, freight second, the US is capable of running proper high frequency reliable passenger services with surprisingly high top speeds. Does anyone know if any freight is carried on the lines the Acela Express uses- and if so, I'd imagine it's run at speeds similar to those used in the UK, yes?

Yes it is, and no it isn't.

The North East Corridor is rather under utilised, the freight trains crawl along it at rather low speeds and get in the way all the time.
And it is not high frequency by European standards anyway.

Then again the limits for most of the route are at or below 60mph.

 

[8A Rail]

Not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere that DRS are looking into a deal with GBRf over a 66/92 swap deal or some sorts.

I could not imagine this happening as I reckon GBRf will wanting to keep the Class 92's for their own services, hence why they seem to want them.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

High speed freight running is a necessity in the UK as you yourself admit.

Very high power electric units will enable it to be run at those speeds far more economically than at present (lower fuel and maintenance costs et al)
Unless you propose axing huge numbers of passenger services so we can have drag freights all over the place again?

Or start building freight-only tracks and routes.