Boycott of the railways

[michael769]

Genuine public services don't shut down on Boxing Day

Really? Try visiting your local public library or your doctor's surgery on Boxing Day!

 

[Goatboy]

Are the railways a public service?

Yes.

Genuine public services don't shut down on Boxing Day

So I can use my local library or council tip on Boxing day? Irrelevent argument I'm afraid.
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Should the railway therefore operate at a loss?

No - the shortfall should be made up through public funds (Which you could argue is technically a yes, but you get the point I'm making).

I'm interested in how you define air travel not to be a "public service", but the railway is.

Simple - with the exception a few isolated cases, air travel is not subsidised by the government for the benefit of the population and the economic prosperity of the country. Whereas rail travel, bus travel, public libraries, etc etc are.

I don't disagree that the railway is a public service, but it isn't a charity. I agree that season ticket prices are very high indeed, but the cost of running the railway makes these prices necessary.

The cost of running the railway is inflated by virtue of the very neccesary duty a TOC has to deliver a profit to its shareholders. This is a fault of the system not the TOC's. The TOC's number 1 priority is to maximise shareholder value. This is a legal obligation.

Surely the requirement of the public to travel is the public service element, and the mode of transport which is used to undertake the journey should not come into the equation.

It should - for example, it is unreasonable except in very specific circumstances to expect general subsidisation of taxi services for the public. It is not unreasonable to expected subsidised mass transit, especially if the government wants to moderate use of the private car.

As an example, if one needs to travel from Aberdeen to London, why should the cost of the rail fare be subsidised as a public service, but the cost of the air fare not be similarly subsidised?

Because air is, generally, considered luxury travel. There are the odd case where it isnt (And these are sometimes subsidised), but the decision to travel by air to London is a luxury decision because you want to travel faster than the state subsidised options allow you to do.

Also it is worth pointing out there are still many loss making lines in rural areas of the UK which are subsidised through the payments made by the Government to the TOCs to run them.

As is right and proper. I never use these lines and I don't care how much the tickets cost on them but I appreciate the bigger picture - others rely on them and therefore I have no issue with my tax being used to fund it, the same as I don't mind my tax funding a school system I do not use or library services I don't use.

 

[tbtc]

Really? Try visiting your local public library or your doctor's surgery on Boxing Day!

The NHS still functions over Christmas though (hospitals are open on Christmas day just like every other day - even if there is no public transport to take the staff to work), regardless of the fact that certain parts of the NHS aren't open (local GPs).

If you needed medical attention on Christmas Day/ Boxing Day you could still get it.

Libraries aren't open every day of the week (my local ones are only open for a full day on a couple of days of the week) and are generally closed on Bank Holidays, so I wouldn't expect them to be open on Boxing Day.

The "railways are a public service" argument gets trotted out regularly when it suits though.
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It should - for example, it is unreasonable except in very specific circumstances to expect general subsidisation of taxi services for the public

There's plenty of people who get subsidised taxi services - a lot of councils use taxis to get kids to school (especially for those with "behavioural problems" where it seems commonplace), lots of pensioners get "taxi cards" that allow them a certain number of free/ subsidised trips.

The fact that taxi fares/ licences/ conditions are generally set by local councils means they have more in common with trains than say buses do (e.g. local councils cannot control the number of buses in their town/ city, stipulate the fares).

 

[yorksrob]

The railway is not nationalised and I disagree that it's a "public service" in the traditional sense of the term.

Concerns which aren't public services, such as supermarkets, garden centres, tyre balancing companies etc can be left to get on with it with minimal regulation to stop them conning/injuring people.

The fact that even today, the railways are micro-managed by Government to the extent that every train door that slams "reverberates through Whitehall" (to paraphrase Aneurin Bevan) suggests to me that they are very much still a public service (albeit one that is franchised out to the private sector).

 

[Goatboy]

Thanks for describing the 'specific circumstances' I alluded to in my post

 

[andykn]

Should the railway therefore operate at a loss?

I thought it had for decades.

 

[AndyLandy]

Are the railways a public service?

Is this definitely a black-and-white yes/no question?

I'm not convinced it is. In many ways, the railways are a public service, hence why there are heavy subsidies to keep rural branch lines in operation, and there are franchise commitments for all the TOCs. If this was a purely profit-driven exercise, everyone would be running fast trains from London to other major cities.

On the other hand, there is definitely an element of raising revenue through fares and getting people to pay for these services, with some elements of supply and demand dictating higher prices for peak fares and similar.

 

[LE Greys]

I thought it had for decades.

Intercity turned a profit in its last years and Network South East broke even. It was the other business sectors that lost money, and BR might well have turned them round while using the profitable parts to cross-subsidise the non-profitable ones. Privatisation tried to do the same thing with premium payments, but it had some serious negative consequences, the demise of GNER being one of them.

 

[BestWestern]

The NHS still functions over Christmas though (hospitals are open on Christmas day just like every other day - even if there is no public transport to take the staff to work), regardless of the fact that certain parts of the NHS aren't open (local GPs).

If you needed medical attention on Christmas Day/ Boxing Day you could still get it.

Libraries aren't open every day of the week (my local ones are only open for a full day on a couple of days of the week) and are generally closed on Bank Holidays, so I wouldn't expect them to be open on Boxing Day.

The "railways are a public service" argument gets trotted out regularly when it suits though.

I really don't think you can compare the railway with the NHS. The only people you will find visiting a hospital over Christmas are the sick, the injured and their close family/friends.

I can see a push coming for a limited service on Boxing day over the next few years, however the Unions will kill any such suggestion dead, either refusing altogether to consider the idea or demanding such inflated payments for staff that no TOC would be willing to take the plunge.

 

[kieron]

Let's be honest though, the railways were not created as a 'public service'. They were built because some people saw them as a way as making money.
So, when did they become one?

Probably about the time they started taking people's land without their consent. Aircraft may take away your peace and quiet, but you don't actually pay for that.

It could be argued that air travel is subsidised, and quite heavily. Aircraft fuel, unlike diesel for trains, buses and cars, is sold without tax being levied on it. This isn't because the public benefits when Alan Sugar uses a private jet, though.

 

[yorksrob]

Privatisation tried to do the same thing with premium payments, but it had some serious negative consequences, the demise of GNER being one of them.

Quite. The fact that those premium payments now have to go through Government is one reason why Government has such a direct influence over the day to day running of the railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do Europeans commute the sort of distances we do over here and if they do what sort of numbers do it, a lot of our rolling stock (especially into London) is only used in the peak periods simply to move the huge number of commuters and sits idle the rest of the (week)day and all weekend?

What you say here not only highlights the difference between Britain and mainland Europe, but has the added north/south British divide matter where the numerically greater south of Britain (London in particular) has spare rolling stock that warrents its availability in the peak periods with the vast numbers of the commuter market needing to be served and willing to pay quite eye-watering annual season ticket prices for the privilege of having this facility and the very large metropolitan areas of the North and the Midlands with large passenger flows, but having no spare stock whatsoever sitting idly at any time. I am sure you will be aware of those metropolitan areas to which I do so refer.

 

[tbtc]

I really don't think you can compare the railway with the NHS. The only people you will find visiting a hospital over Christmas are the sick, the injured and their close family/friends

That's like every other day of the year though

 

[Class377/5]

I wish people would stop comparing the railways to emergency services. They are a special group of services that have to be proved to save lives 24/7. Quite frankly you don't need to railways on boxing day but want them.

But that's dragging the thread into a different, yearly argument that gets the thread locked down.

My point is fire/NHS etc are needed to save lives. Railways aren't on this level or anywhere near, hence why you don't need them all the time.

 

[Goatboy]

The boxing day argument is completely superfluous to the 'are the railways a public service' debate and it amazes me people still persist. There are all manner of public services NOT available on boxing day.

I can't visit my council tip on boxing day. I can't pop to my DVLA local office. I can't use Jobcentre Plus. I can't visit the council leisure centre. I can't go to the library. The bin-men won't come round. None of this stops these things being public services just as the fact there is no service on boxing day doesn't stop an industry subsidised to the tune of billions of pounds from being a public service either.

 

[DiscoStu]

As I said in my post that you're quoting, those examples came from an article I read online. If you copy and paste it into Google, I'm sure you'll find it.

 

[Class377/5]

As I said in my post that you're quoting, those examples came from an article I read online. If you copy and paste it into Google, I'm sure you'll find it.

So in other words your not using facts but someone less opinion? That's a good sound basis for a thread.

 

[Clip]

The boxing day argument is completely superfluous to the 'are the railways a public service' debate and it amazes me people still persist. There are all manner of public services NOT available on boxing day.

I can't visit my council tip on boxing day. I can't pop to my DVLA local office. I can't use Jobcentre Plus. I can't visit the council leisure centre. I can't go to the library. The bin-men won't come round. None of this stops these things being public services just as the fact there is no service on boxing day doesn't stop an industry subsidised to the tune of billions of pounds from being a public service either.

People can't do some of those on a Saturday or Sunday for the rest of the year either though so its a pretty poor argument to put forward to make your point.

 

[Sidious]

An interesting comparison for those who advocate how much cheaper the continental network is to ours:

Le Mans to Tours - Two regional French cities, both about an hour from Paris by High Speed Rail, both connected by an 'Intercity' rail line, about one hour drive or rail journey apart. No motorway connection between the two, distance about 85km/55miles. Le Mans has a population of approximately 300k in the catchment, and Tours approximatley 170k. The cities are in different regions.

There are 8 direct 'intercity' or 'TER' class trains which connect the two, and the cheapest fare is about £14.00 (EUR 16.80). Journey time about 1 hour. Roughly a two hourly interval throughout the day from 6.25 to 20.17

Leicester to Peterborough - Two regional English cities, both about an hour from London by rail, both connected by a 'cross-country' rail line, about one hour drive or rail journey apart. No motorway connection between the two, distance about 67km/40miles. Leicester has a population of approximately 300k in the catchment, and Peterborough approximatley 180k. The cities are in different regions.

There are 17 direct 'crosscountry' class trains which connect the two, and the cheapest fare is £9.00. Off peak walk on fare £19.80 single. Journey time about 1 hour. Roughly an hourly interval throughout the day from 5.18 to 21.18

I would rather have the British service offering than the French one!

 

[andykn]

People can't do some of those on a Saturday or Sunday for the rest of the year either though so its a pretty poor argument to put forward to make your point.

Surely it just emphasises that availability is not an indicator of public service? Plnety of things that are indisputably public services are not available all the time (and conversely plenty of things that aren't public services are available 365 days a year).

 

[Lewisham2221]

There's plenty of things that I can't do at night, on a Saturday, a Sunday, a Bank Holiday, Christmas Day, Boxing Day etc etc. I don't go moaning that the bank isn't open 24/7 365 days a year.

 

[andykn]

There's plenty of things that I can't do at night, on a Saturday, a Sunday, a Bank Holiday, Christmas Day, Boxing Day etc etc. I don't go moaning that the bank isn't open 24/7 365 days a year.

I remember when my cashpoint only worked until 9pm weekdays.

 

[Flamingo]

When my Postman works Boxing Day, I will. The same arguements apply to them as me, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Clip]

I remember when my cashpoint only worked until 9pm weekdays.

I remember when I was allowed out after 9pm weekdays. That only applies now if football is on :/

 

[Roverman]

Does Leicester>Peterborough need a motorway connection?!
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When my Postman works Boxing Day, I will. The same arguements apply to them as me, as far as I'm concerned.

Love it, that will never happen mine barely works Mon-Fri as it is!

 

[455driver]

As Boxing day has been and gone (in a drunken haze in my case) for another year can anyone explain why England and Wales are running a nearly normal service on New Years day but no Scot-rail trains are running?

Now that is a silly state of affairs bearing in mind somebody mentioned earlier in the thread about Scot-rail were running on Boxing day but forgot to mention the "no NYD" service.

 

[andykn]

As Boxing day has been and gone (in a drunken haze in my case) for another year can anyone explain why England and Wales are running a nearly normal service on New Years day but no Scot-rail trains are running?

Now that is a silly state of affairs bearing in mind somebody mentioned earlier in the thread about Scot-rail were running on Boxing day but forgot to mention the "no NYD" service.

New Year has traditionally been a bigger deal in Scotland, so they have the 2nd Jan as a Public Holiday too.

 

[tbtc]

As Boxing day has been and gone (in a drunken haze in my case) for another year can anyone explain why England and Wales are running a nearly normal service on New Years day but no Scot-rail trains are running?

Now that is a silly state of affairs bearing in mind somebody mentioned earlier in the thread about Scot-rail were running on Boxing day but forgot to mention the "no NYD" service.

New Year has traditionally been a bigger deal in Scotland, so they have the 2nd Jan as a Public Holiday too.

Hogmanay in Scotland is a much bigger event than Christmas - the first of January is virtually a shut down in Scotland (compared to Boxing Day in England which is a normal Bank Holiday as far most of the country is concerned- Scots generally get the second of January as a holiday too - handy for sobering up )

 

[Metroland]

Let's be honest though, the railways were not created as a 'public service'. They were built because some people saw them as a way as making money.
So, when did they become one?

Arguably when public money was being put into them, around the mid-1950s, although initially this was a loan that had to be paid back. The idea of the social railway come from the 1960s, which the creation of PTEs. Labour's Barbara Castle did much to promote the idea of social inclusion, and the need to provide service to decrease congestion.

Ironically the railways did provide a 365 a day service prior to the 1950s, because of common carrier obligations and the demands was there - the vast majority didn't own a car.

Today, we live in a multi-cultural and far more mobile society. Many people's friends and family are spread across the country, as it stands, unless you own a car your travel arrangements are pretty restricted during the Christmas period. Many also take holidays in the festive period, and there is a need to get to airport. Aviation works fairly normally over Christmas and New year.

There is an argument to say that the railway ought to be responding to public demand. It is a service many rely on. It's a very dangerous thing to say that it's not with such vast amounts of public money going into it.

Clearly they we created as a business, but like many things (water, gas, electricity, telephones) they are fairly essential for day-to-day use for millions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hogmanay in Scotland is a much bigger event than Christmas

Was there any historical event that made this to be so in Scotland ?