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IEP: 26 metres is too long

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The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1313369 said:
Assuming one day that the Southern routes were re-electrified on the 25kV system, how much additional infrastructure work would be needed to enable IEPs to run over these lines? Such a requirement is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Such a requirement is not beyond the bounds of possibility, however it may not be very practical and to be honest should we only ever build trains that can run on all our network even if they never leave the lines that they were built for.

For instance the IC225's have only really run on the ECML, should we have not built them in-case they were needed to run on the Southern network?

It may well be that, as with the GWML, if there was a major upgrade of all the signals on the routes run by southern as well as a re-electrification project that the side effect of doing so would be enable the running of IEP with minimal extra work.

However until those projects are undertaken it is likely that NR will put in new structures and infrastructure with the thought that during the lifespan of them that longer trains will be being used and so the design will take that on board (i.e. all new bridges should where ever possible have adequate clearance to take the requirements of a modern railway, even if the old structure only just cleared the trains that currently use the line).
 
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HSTEd

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If you want to re-electrify the entire southern network with 25kV you will need a huge infrastructure programme either way to fit the wires into the very limited clearances available.

Clearing the whole thing for W12 under the wires at the same time would not be that much more expensive.
 

RAGNARØKR

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If you want to re-electrify the entire southern network with 25kV you will need a huge infrastructure programme either way to fit the wires into the very limited clearances available.

Clearing the whole thing for W12 under the wires at the same time would not be that much more expensive.
I am not advocating it but it is being actively discussed, and conversion of Basingstoke to Southampton is in the latest set of proposals.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Such a requirement is not beyond the bounds of possibility, however it may not be very practical and to be honest should we only ever build trains that can run on all our network even if they never leave the lines that they were built for.
It is a good long term strategy given the long life of rolling stock. It is not as if it would mean that vehicles would be restricted to 16 metres x 2.4 wide in order to achieve this.
For instance the IC225's have only really run on the ECML, should we have not built them in-case they were needed to run on the Southern network?
No because there was never the likelihood that they would have to. They were a dedicated fleet for a particular route. IEP is a much bigger fleet for many routes so could end up on the Southern, just as HSTs have. And do you know that only certain HSTs can run on third-rail electrified routes?
 
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NSEFAN

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RAGNARØKR said:
No because there was never the likelihood that they would have to. They were a dedicated fleet for a particular route. IEP is a much bigger fleet for many routes so could end up on the Southern, just as HSTs have. And do you know that only certain HSTs can run on third-rail electrified routes?

IEP is a long-distance express train. There's only three routes they might possibly work in the near future. The main one is Reading-Southampton/Bournemouth XC services. This route has already had extensive route clearance done for larger containers as far as Southampton. How much more expensive would it be to make it suitable for IEP? The only platforms with sharp curves are at Bournemouth itself, so there shouldn't be too many locations which need to be redone. This all assumes that the Cross Country network will get IEPs, which is not currently known.

For the FGW services to Portsmouth/Brighton and Reading-Gatwick, the locations which would probably need the most work done to them are Portsmouth & Southsea and Brighton, and possibly Redhill. This assumes that IEP will be replacing the class 158s and 165/166s, something which again has not been mentioned. I personally don't think that IEP will be suitable for such duties, as the linespeed is lower and stops are more frequent.

All other workings on the former SR either have new EMUs, will be converted to similar EMUS (networkers --> Electrostars, class 455s --> Desiros) or be electrified throughout (Waterloo-Exeter, Hastings-Ashford and Oxted-Uckfield would be better electrified to use compatible EMUs, rather than bi-mode IEP).

The HST issue is the long swing link (LSL) bogie types fouling the third rail. Presumably this issue can be avoided at the design stage of IEP bogies. The issue with IEP is the length of the vehicles, but apart from a couple of locations with sharp curves, I can't see this being too much of a problem (no more than it will be for the GWML).
 

tbtc

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So, to try to find something to complain about IEP, we've now got to the stage of pointing out that they wouldn't currently be suitable for London to Brighton (a route not requiring 125mph running or being converted to overhead electrification any time soon)?
 

jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1313369 said:
From your response it is obvious that I don't think I am making myself clear.

So I shall go back to be beginning. There are several gauges that have to be complied with before a vehicle can run on the railway. The first is the "static gauge" - which is the cross section of an infinitely short vehicle ie nothing can be larger than that. At the start of BR this was defined as the C1 loading gauge and allowed a maximum width of 9ft 3in at 4ft 0 1/2in above rail level. This 9ft 3in included an allowance for projections such as door handles.

This was then translated into two vehicle types with lengths of 63ft 6in and a bogie spacing of 46ft 6in and a shorter vehicle 57ft 0in. The latter was the go-anywhere vehicle and large numbers were built in various forms including both passenger and parcels vehicles, as it was recognised that the longer vehicle could not go everywhere on the system.

In the course of the development of the mark 3 vehicle it was realised that by recessing door handles, and with a slight tapering of the ends, the same width of 2.74 metres could be achieved in a longer vehicle, subject to route restrictions and this was the basis of Restriction C3. With a vehicle of this length the geometrical issues come into play, since what counts is the "swept volume" - the envelope through which the vehicle must be able to pass through. This is determined by the simple geometry of the circle, in which (x) squared= h(d-h)

3252265733_4c4d65ccaf_n.jpg


This means that the width of the vehicle must be reduced by an amount proportional to the square of the distance between the bogie centres. A similar adjustment must be made to the vehicle width outside the bogie centres. In the case of the mark 3, this reduction was 8 cm. Later on, mark 3 vehicles were built to the 20 metre length and to the full width of the static loading gauge ie 2.82 metres ie with a wider bodyshell than the mark 1.

If you obtain the formulae, put them on a spreadsheet and test out various lengths of vehicles and bogie spacings, you will find that each successive increment of length beyond 20 metres leads to a larger width reduction. A 21 metre vehicle needs to be just 2 cm narrower than the 20 metre vehicle, but a 23 metre vehicle loses 8 cm and a further 3 metres would lose more still - you can work that out for yourself. If you apply the formulae you will also discover that a longer vehicle of the same width as a mark 1 is theoretically possible with a longer overhang at each end.

One of the reasons why such vehicles were never built may be because of the stress it puts on the coupling and gangways - the mark 3 gangways are apparently subject to a lot of wear and tear due to the large relative movement between adjacent vehicles, with the bogie centres 3.5 metres in from the vehicle ends.

There are two further factors, however, that have to be taken into account. The first is that allowance has to be made for the movement of the vehicle on its suspension system. The second is that allowance has to be made for the movement of the track, which has a tendency to creep out of position, especially on curves. So tolerances have to be built in to accommodate this. Recent developments have made it possible to monitor this movement more accurately and so the allowance can be reduced somewhat. The same reduction in tolerances may also permit a wider static loading gauge.

IEP is in fact going to be 2.75 metres wide ie 1 cm more than mark 3. But the point is that, whichever way this issue is looked at, vehicle could be longer than 20 metres but nearly as wide and still have a go-anywhere capability. That surely is worth having since it would offer the possibility of system-wide standardisation.

It is obvious that I have not made myself clear, because you refer to the Oxford avoiding line designed for fast running. The tight Oxford turnoff I am talking about is the one through Didcot station. This is the sort of thing that is found when the matter is looked at in closer detail.

The picture you linked to of the Cotwold line was of track of a far larger radius than that which determines gauging restrictions. But unless you are working in the appropriate department of Network Rail, you do not have the information any more than I do, that is if it even exists at the moment. As for the works required at Victoria, the station approaches will have been relaid at least once since mark 3 stock was introduced and the accommodation works will have presumably been done then. And I have still never seen mark 3 stock, or photographs of mark 3 stock, on the eastern side of the station. Perhaps you know otherwise. If it would have been possible to operate 23 metre vehicles freely over the Southern lines, the ROSCOs would not have ordered over a thousand EMU vehicles to the 20 metre length for these routes. Assuming one day that the Southern routes were re-electrified on the 25kV system, how much additional infrastructure work would be needed to enable IEPs to run over these lines? Such a requirement is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Yes, let's go back to the beginning. The point at which you said that a "major infrastructure upgrade" will be needed on the GWML and associated routes to improve clearances for 26m IEP coaches to be used.

Despite being asked several times, you have failed to justify that statement by taking the very simple step of stating where the work for your "major infrastructure upgrade" is to take place. Maybe you should have actually applied your formula before making your claim.

The station curve at Didcot is nowhere near any structures that might foul longer coaches and trains using it are running at low speed as they arrive and depart. The majority of Oxford-London fasts bypass Parkway anyway and that's not going to change in the future. And my hearing is still intact despite the odd journey round the curve over the years on coaches of assorted lengths.

If such a thing as a "major infrastructure upgrade" was required, Network Rail would have said so and incorporated such vital work in the programme for preparatory work to improve clearances for electrification, work which is already under way and almost invariably involves improving vertical clearances, not lateral ones.

The DfT's desire to have 26m coaches has been known about for a number of years and during the course of work on what I would call a major infrastructure upgrade recently carried out in the GW area on an IEP route - reinstating double track on 20 miles of the Cotswold Line - that factor was designed in from the start. No problems were encountered, even in Chipping Campden tunnel, which curves throughout its length and where several extra courses of bricks added inside the tunnel to strengthen it in the 1900s had reduced clearances from those allowed by Brunel. No bridges were touched, or station platforms, or anything on approaches to stations...

There are no current plans to use IEP on Southern routes and any future electric XC rolling stock is some years away and will not be ordered by means in any way resembling the IEP process, while the 444s haven't even reached their 10th birthdays and can be converted to use 25kv, so are hardly likely to be replaced in a hurry, and 23.2m 159 coaches manage to get in and out of Waterloo quite happily.

So a Mk3 can't get into the east side of Victoria? So what? You were the person who brought Victoria into a discussion that, from my side at least. was meant to be about trying to ascertain your evidence for your purported "major infrastructure upgrade" on the GWML for IEP, not whether Mk3s can reach Victoria on the odd excursion.
 

RAGNARØKR

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The station curve at Didcot is nowhere near any structures that might foul longer coaches and trains using it are running at low speed as they arrive and depart. The majority of Oxford-London fasts bypass Parkway anyway and that's not going to change in the future.

If such a thing as a "major infrastructure upgrade" was required, Network Rail would have said so and incorporated such vital work in the programme for preparatory work to improve clearances for electrification, work which is already under way and almost invariably involves improving vertical clearances, not lateral ones.
If you look at the reports on the IEC contract award, you will see that a fair chunk of the costs are for infrastructure. I seem to recall about 25% of the total IEP costs. Now some of that is depots, and as you say, some of the accommodation work can be absorbed in eg the remodelling of Reading. But previous experience has shown that the introduction of longer vehicles is beset with clearance problems and it is obvious from the design of the train that it is a tight fit. There will be places on the system where the pinch points will need attention, possibly costly, and to what end?
The DfT's desire to have 26m coaches has been known about for a number of years and during the course of work on what I would call a major infrastructure upgrade recently carried out in the GW area on an IEP route - reinstating double track on 20 miles of the Cotswold Line - that factor was designed in from the start. No problems were encountered, even in Chipping Campden tunnel, which curves throughout its length
What is the radius of curvature there? It is the 200 metre radius curves where the problems arise.
There are no current plans to use IEP on Southern routes and any future electric XC rolling stock is some years away and will not be ordered by means in any way resembling the IEP process, while the 444s haven't even reached their 10th birthdays and can be converted to use 25kv, so are hardly likely to be replaced in a hurry, and 23.2m 159 coaches manage to get in and out of Waterloo quite happily.
Trains run regularly from Oxford to Southampton and it would seem sensible not to have new electric stock on the GW that could not.
So a Mk3 can't get into the east side of Victoria? So what? You were the person who brought Victoria into a discussion that, from my side at least. was meant to be about trying to ascertain your evidence for your purported "major infrastructure upgrade" on the GWML for IEP, not whether Mk3s can reach Victoria on the odd excursion.
Victoria is an example of a place where clearances can be tight due to curvature, even though the rest of the route is unproblematical. There will be many such, usually in tight urban locations where it is difficult or impossible to take additional land to resolve the problem.

Time will tell. In the meantime, why not put that formula in a spreadsheet and test out what happens when vehicle lengths and bogie spacings are changed?
 

ukrob

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Still not seeing anything to back up your claims - you conveniently miss out that when writing irrelevant replies?
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1314015 said:
There will be places on the system where the pinch points will need attention, possibly costly, and to what end?

Clearance for IEP will also allow existing trains to be sped up (by smoothing out curves) and will allow larger freight trains to run too, so this will benefit non-IEP too

RAGNARØKR;1314015 said:
Trains run regularly from Oxford to Southampton and it would seem sensible not to have new electric stock on the GW that could not

Those trains that run from Newcastle/ Manchester to Southampton/ Bournemouth? Not just shuttles from Oxford - big difference.
 

The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1314015 said:
Trains run regularly from Oxford to Southampton and it would seem sensible not to have new electric stock on the GW that could not.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only way to get from Oxford to Southampton (by direct train) is by using XC services, none of which are currently proposed to be using IEP trains.
 

tbtc

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the only way to get from Oxford to Southampton (by direct train) is by using XC services, none of which are currently proposed to be using IEP trains.

Yes, but I think that RAGNARØKR is worried about whether IEP are capable of being cascaded to XC, London - Brighton and even the Hammersmith & City Line, just in case...
 

AndyLandy

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Yes, but I think that RAGNARØKR is worried about whether IEP are capable of being cascaded to XC, London - Brighton and even the Hammersmith & City Line, just in case...

Joking aside, there is definite value in looking at longer-term train deployments and future cascade potential. IEP could bring improvements to journey times on the ECML and we're certainly considering it as an option. So, what do you do with the IC225s in that case? Cascade them somewhere, sell them abroad or scrap them early.

Whatever form IEP takes, it's likely that the routes it ends up on will be the ones we want to invest in even faster trains within the lifespan of the IEP. If the IEPs could then find themselves bringing improvements to secondary main line services, all the better for everyone.
 

tbtc

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Joking aside, there is definite value in looking at longer-term train deployments and future cascade potential. IEP could bring improvements to journey times on the ECML and we're certainly considering it as an option. So, what do you do with the IC225s in that case? Cascade them somewhere, sell them abroad or scrap them early.

Whatever form IEP takes, it's likely that the routes it ends up on will be the ones we want to invest in even faster trains within the lifespan of the IEP. If the IEPs could then find themselves bringing improvements to secondary main line services, all the better for everyone.

There is something to be said for long term cascades, but it seemed a bit silly to criticise IEP for not being a "go anywhere" train when it's not expected to go "anywhere" (for a long time at least).

Really, there are no "go anywhere" passenger trains these days (the most widely reaching DMUs are probably the 158s but they have clearance issues at plenty of stations/ lines).

IEP may spend the second half of it's life on XC, but then a lot of the XC "map" will be cleared for IEP anyway (Aberdeen to Doncaster plus chunks of the GWML).

Seems a bit premature to criticise IEP for not being able to work just anywhere at the moment though - not the most silly reason I've heard IEP criticised for mind!
 

The Ham

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There is something to be said for long term cascades, but it seemed a bit silly to criticise IEP for not being a "go anywhere" train when it's not expected to go "anywhere" (for a long time at least).

Really, there are no "go anywhere" passenger trains these days (the most widely reaching DMUs are probably the 158s but they have clearance issues at plenty of stations/ lines).

IEP may spend the second half of it's life on XC, but then a lot of the XC "map" will be cleared for IEP anyway (Aberdeen to Doncaster plus chunks of the GWML).

Seems a bit premature to criticise IEP for not being able to work just anywhere at the moment though - not the most silly reason I've heard IEP criticised for mind!

Quite, IEP is 4 years away from running any passenger services on the UK network and probably at least a further 5 years away from a new order of IEP's to run on other lines and another further 10 years before it is cascaded to other lines from where it is being planned to run at present (with the possible exception of extending services, such as into Cornwall).

A lot can happen in 10 years, as if you'd said in 2002 that we'd be looking at the possibility of a new line and were on the cusp of a massive infrastructure investment most people would have suggested that was never going to happen. Even more can happen in 20 years, how fanciful such ideas would have sounded to people in the early 90's when most of the rolling stock in the south was still slam doors and privatisation was a way to run down the railways.
 

AndyLandy

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There is something to be said for long term cascades, but it seemed a bit silly to criticise IEP for not being a "go anywhere" train when it's not expected to go "anywhere" (for a long time at least).

Really, there are no "go anywhere" passenger trains these days (the most widely reaching DMUs are probably the 158s but they have clearance issues at plenty of stations/ lines).

IEP may spend the second half of it's life on XC, but then a lot of the XC "map" will be cleared for IEP anyway (Aberdeen to Doncaster plus chunks of the GWML).

Seems a bit premature to criticise IEP for not being able to work just anywhere at the moment though - not the most silly reason I've heard IEP criticised for mind!

Oh absolutely, there's no such thing as a go-anywhere train, and there never should be. However, it's quite possible that we'll see some future routes upgraded to 125mph running. Maybe the GEML, or SWML might be candidates for this in 20-odd years time.

Of course, having 26m vehicles brings its own merits, so if the vehicles are worth cascading, it's probably worth doing the necessary infrastructure works to accommodate them.

Personally, I still think we should be ordering electric IEPs for XC and cascading the displaced Voyagers to reduce/remove the need for bi-mode IEP.
 

LE Greys

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Oh absolutely, there's no such thing as a go-anywhere train, and there never should be. However, it's quite possible that we'll see some future routes upgraded to 125mph running. Maybe the GEML, or SWML might be candidates for this in 20-odd years time.

Of course, having 26m vehicles brings its own merits, so if the vehicles are worth cascading, it's probably worth doing the necessary infrastructure works to accommodate them.

Personally, I still think we should be ordering electric IEPs for XC and cascading the displaced Voyagers to reduce/remove the need for bi-mode IEP.

I'm not sure there ever has been either, even if we leave the Hastings Line out of this. It's always advantageous to fill up the loading gauge, for obvious reasons. Most coaches could go almost everywhere (excluding Tonbridge-Battle and other special cases), but very few locomotives had that capability. Trying to engineer a complete train that can do so is possible, but it's simply not practical to do so for main line express passenger work. You didn't see the GWR forming the Cornish Riviera Express from their entire stock of Railmotors (specifically engineered to go anywhere on the GWR). No, a Star with a dozen Dreadnought coaches was more practical and cost-effective.
 

AndyLandy

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I'm not sure there ever has been either.

Indeed. There are certainly places where even the Mk3s can't go. That said, I wonder how much infrastructure clearance works were required when HSTs were cascaded to CrossCountry duties. Or when the 90s+Mk3s replaced 86s+Mk2s on the GEML. Surely this is a matter of public record. I imagine that getting 26m IEPs should be of similar proportions. Probably less, since we've already had the foresight to specify that all new structures over the railway should conform to a much larger loading gauge.
 

RAGNARØKR

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So, to try to find something to complain about IEP, we've now got to the stage of pointing out that they wouldn't currently be suitable for London to Brighton (a route not requiring 125mph running or being converted to overhead electrification any time soon)?
When has IEP been mentioned in connection with that route? But since you have mentioned it, services such as Milton Keynes/Oxford to Gatwick/Brighton or Southampton are not exactly far-fetched fantasies, especially considering that they serve a part of the country that is gradually turning into a continuous built-up area. It's IEP or some kind of Electrostar or Siemens equivalent, is it not? So in the end it could be Derby churning out batch after batch of 4 x 20 metre EMUs, which I suppose supports the original statement I made, though I must admit I had not thought of it that way to start with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Probably less, since we've already had the foresight to specify that all new structures over the railway should conform to a much larger loading gauge.
A niggle but it is not loading gauge, it is kinematic envelope ie the swept volume of the vehicle taking into account its geometry and suspension characteristics. The potential problem with long vehicles occurs on curves of around 200 metres radius. Nobody seems to build them any longer than 26 metres anywhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm not sure there ever has been either, even if we leave the Hastings Line out of this. It's always advantageous to fill up the loading gauge, for obvious reasons. Most coaches could go almost everywhere (excluding Tonbridge-Battle and other special cases), but very few locomotives had that capability. Trying to engineer a complete train that can do so is possible, but it's simply not practical to do so for main line express passenger work. You didn't see the GWR forming the Cornish Riviera Express from their entire stock of Railmotors (specifically engineered to go anywhere on the GWR). No, a Star with a dozen Dreadnought coaches was more practical and cost-effective.
Yes, the GWR had 70 foot long coaches, with bogies close to the outer ends, and I would be surprised if there were not severe restrictions on their use as they quickly went back to building to the shorter length as standard.

And in later years many GWR coaches carried the label "not to run on the Eastern and North Eastern Regions".

Of course it makes sense to fill up the loading gauge but you can fill it up by going long and narrow or short and wide. Given that the UK gauge is the narrowest standard gauge in Europe, it is in the interest of comfort to optimise for width, especially if there is so little to be gained by going long and narrow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Still not seeing anything to back up your claims - you conveniently miss out that when writing irrelevant replies?
There is plenty of material available if you want to look for yourself. There is the RSSB study for a start. You need only ask why it has taken so long for mark 3 stock to be able to run over, still, not all of the system? Or why 26 metre standard was not adopted long ago.

I don't know exactly where the restrictions occur. If the information exists at all it would be confidential. If it does not exist, then it will take a lot of resources to establish the situation and even then there are uncertainties, as was found when trying to fit the class 158 stock onto the Southern coastway route. There turned out to be a problem at Shoreham station, on a straight length of track. This is not an exact science because the position of the track on the trackbed is constantly changing. Things have improved with the introduction of laser surveying but track on curves drifts sideways due to the force of the passing trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seems a bit premature to criticise IEP for not being able to work just anywhere at the moment though - not the most silly reason I've heard IEP criticised for mind!
I am suggesting that the concept is just following a wrong strategy. My criticism is not of IEP but of the reasoning that has led to the design emerging as a solution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Clearance for IEP will also allow existing trains to be sped up (by smoothing out curves) and will allow larger freight trains to run too, so this will benefit non-IEP too
It is not a matter of straightening out curves, it is a matter of increasing the space between tracks to allow for the additional overhang.
Those trains that run from Newcastle/ Manchester to Southampton/ Bournemouth? Not just shuttles from Oxford - big difference.
When Bletchley-Oxford opens, there will be a lot of traffic all along the corridor from Milton Keynes through Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Southampton and Bournemouth, also Guildford/Redhill and then towards Ashford and Gatwick/Brighton.

There is a need for regional express services in that area of the country. The gaps in electrification on these routes need to be filled and some kind of EMU will then be needed to run them. A decent train service would be well patronised within a week of opening.
 

LE Greys

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RAGNARØKR;1314291 said:
When has IEP been mentioned in connection with that route? But since you have mentioned it, services such as Milton Keynes/Oxford to Gatwick/Brighton or Southampton are not exactly far-fetched fantasies, especially considering that they serve a part of the country that is gradually turning into a continuous built-up area. It's IEP or some kind of Electrostar or Siemens equivalent, is it not? So in the end it could be Derby churning out batch after batch of 4 x 20 metre EMUs, which I suppose supports the original statement I made, though I must admit I had not thought of it that way to start with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A niggle but it is not loading gauge, it is kinematic envelope ie the swept volume of the vehicle taking into account its geometry and suspension characteristics. The potential problem with long vehicles occurs on curves of around 200 metres radius. Nobody seems to build them any longer than 26 metres anywhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, the GWR had 70 foot long coaches, with bogies close to the outer ends, and I would be surprised if there were not severe restrictions on their use as they quickly went back to building to the shorter length as standard.

And in later years many GWR coaches carried the label "not to run on the Eastern and North Eastern Regions".

Of course it makes sense to fill up the loading gauge but you can fill it up by going long and narrow or short and wide. Given that the UK gauge is the narrowest standard gauge in Europe, it is in the interest of comfort to optimise for width, especially if there is so little to be gained by going long and narrow.

200m is just over 10 chains. These coaches were Dreadnoughts, intended for a minimum curve radius of 6 chains or 4½ chains dead slow (121m or 91m dead slow). They were also built extra-wide, to fill up the entire width of a broad gauge coach, 9 ft 6. Later vehicles, the Super Saloons and Centenary Stock, were even wider at 9 ft 7, but slightly shorter. As you say, this did not increase passenger capacity, this was purely for passenger comfort. The swept volume problem also occurred with the GWR's only Pacific, The Great Bear. The front steps had to be removed because they clipped platform edges at Paddington. Similar problems occurred with bufferbeam edges on the LNER A1s (note the cutouts in Flying Scotsman's bufferbeam) especially at Newcastle Central. That's still not as bad as the notoriously curve-shy GWR 72XX 2-8-2Ts, which would often derail on tight curves in yards because of their long wheelbase. (Source for much of this, The Great Western Railway at Swindon Works by A.S. Peck).

To solve this with IEP, one option would be pinched-in ends and a narrow solebar. Another would be alterations to bogie positioning. Still, I'm operating under the general assumption that the engineers know what they are doing. Had I been in charge, I might well have considered an articulated design instead, but I'm not. I am sure, though, that extensive gauging tests will be carried out before this happens. This is exactly what happened when C3 loading gauge was introduced, and exactly the same questions were asked, 'Is 75ft too long?' (source Speed on the East Coast Main Line by Peter Semmens). The answer then was essentially, 'No, we've tested it and it's fine.'. I'm assuming the same answer will happen here.
 

RAGNARØKR

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the only way to get from Oxford to Southampton (by direct train) is by using XC services, none of which are currently proposed to be using IEP trains.
Correct. But it is a major growth corridor - essentially M4 / A34 and incredibly busy routes. I would expect to see some kind of train service on the route in addition to XC, and as you know it will have continuous 25kV electrification so will become an obvious choice for passenger service with EMUs. Then have a look at the curvature of tracks in the Southampton area. Voyagers and Mark 3s fit but will the IEP?
 

The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1314331 said:
Correct. But it is a major growth corridor - essentially M4 / A34 and incredibly busy routes. I would expect to see some kind of train service on the route in addition to XC, and as you know it will have continuous 25kV electrification so will become an obvious choice for passenger service with EMUs. Then have a look at the curvature of tracks in the Southampton area. Voyagers and Mark 3s fit but will the IEP?

I have no idea as to whether IEP's would fit down to Southampton, however nor do you and nor do either of us know when if at all IEP will be used by XC for their current services or any future services which may or may not run in the future.

It is not like IEP is the only 125mph electric IC class train that could be used on the route.

When the Mark 3's where first brought in they wouldn't have been cleared for use to routes outside of the routes that they first built for, however over time they have been cleared for more and more routes. Likewise the Mark 4's are only cleared to run on very few lines, should they not have been built?

You can not argue that a train should not be built because it is only going to be limited to intercity lines and can not be used on all the possible lines in the country, otherwise there would be very few trains that exist now that would have been built. Maybe we should have never built the IC125's as when they were built they would have only been cleared for a few Intercity lines.
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1314291 said:
When has IEP been mentioned in connection with that route? But since you have mentioned it, services such as Milton Keynes/Oxford to Gatwick/Brighton or Southampton are not exactly far-fetched fantasies, especially considering that they serve a part of the country that is gradually turning into a continuous built-up area. It's IEP or some kind of Electrostar or Siemens equivalent, is it not?

...

When Bletchley-Oxford opens, there will be a lot of traffic all along the corridor from Milton Keynes through Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Southampton and Bournemouth, also Guildford/Redhill and then towards Ashford and Gatwick/Brighton.

There is a need for regional express services in that area of the country. The gaps in electrification on these routes need to be filled and some kind of EMU will then be needed to run them. A decent train service would be well patronised within a week of opening.

What you are talking about appears to be something that 350s and the like currently work - middle distance electrified services with 100mph top speed.

Criticising 125mph Inter City trains like IEP for not being able to work these routes is a bit like complaining that 378s are unsuited to Virgin Trains. Means nothing. Keep trying.
 

swt_passenger

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It's not exactly been clear whether or not the relevant posts upthread have been about 'the Southern' as in the former SR, or 'Southern' as in the current TOC, but in terms of IEP infrastructure work they have already clearly stated that the diversionary route from Reading to Waterloo via Ascot and Staines is to be cleared for IEP, as shown in the current CP4 enhancements list.

As some will know already many of the current platforms along that line are a 'very tight fit' for HSTs, resulting in trains slowing significantly for certain stations, because there is little or no side clearance below the platform copings. When this is fixed for IEP purposes it will presumably also bring the platforms up to date with modern safety standards - which is no bad thing as far as I can see...

As I've noted in other threads, some IEP infrastructure improvements (such as additional platforms at Bristol TM, or four tracking in that area) are being done as IEP upgrades because IEP will run at higher frequencies. Some improvements are to do with platform lengthening, another obvious way of expanding capacity. These latter aspects would be needed irrespective of IEP - if the (relatively short) HSTs happened to be replaced by 12 coach LHCS, and also running at higher frequencies, that would need much of the same so-called 'massive infrastructure improvements' as well...
 

The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1314291 said:
A niggle but it is not loading gauge, it is kinematic envelope ie the swept volume of the vehicle taking into account its geometry and suspension characteristics. The potential problem with long vehicles occurs on curves of around 200 metres radius. Nobody seems to build them any longer than 26 metres anywhere.

So the kinematic envelope is not taken into account when gauge clearance is checked on lines?!!?

Yes, the GWR had 70 foot long coaches, with bogies close to the outer ends, and I would be surprised if there were not severe restrictions on their use as they quickly went back to building to the shorter length as standard.

And in later years many GWR coaches carried the label "not to run on the Eastern and North Eastern Regions".

Of course it makes sense to fill up the loading gauge but you can fill it up by going long and narrow or short and wide. Given that the UK gauge is the narrowest standard gauge in Europe, it is in the interest of comfort to optimise for width, especially if there is so little to be gained by going long and narrow.

The choice of long and narrow or short and wide is based upon how easy it is to provide the number of seats required on a train. If by making each seat 2cm narrower than the maximum it allows the trains to have less doors and therefore more seats in total. Which in turn meant that less trains need to run to provide the number of seats. This also means that for the same number of trains (i.e. when the lines are running near capacity) that more seats can be provided, enabling more passengers to have a seat which is of much more important to rail passengers than an extra 2cm of seat width.

There is plenty of material available if you want to look for yourself. There is the RSSB study for a start. You need only ask why it has taken so long for mark 3 stock to be able to run over, still, not all of the system? Or why 26 metre standard was not adopted long ago.

I don't know exactly where the restrictions occur. If the information exists at all it would be confidential. If it does not exist, then it will take a lot of resources to establish the situation and even then there are uncertainties, as was found when trying to fit the class 158 stock onto the Southern coastway route. There turned out to be a problem at Shoreham station, on a straight length of track. This is not an exact science because the position of the track on the trackbed is constantly changing. Things have improved with the introduction of laser surveying but track on curves drifts sideways due to the force of the passing trains.

RSSB maps show that the class 222's are not cleared to run a lot of places that the 220's and 221's are cleared to run, which I thought were basicly the same trains.

They also show that not all the network is cleared for Mark 2 Coaches to run on either.

I am suggesting that the concept is just following a wrong strategy. My criticism is not of IEP but of the reasoning that has led to the design emerging as a solution.



It is not a matter of straightening out curves, it is a matter of increasing the space between tracks to allow for the additional overhang.When Bletchley-Oxford opens, there will be a lot of traffic all along the corridor from Milton Keynes through Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Southampton and Bournemouth, also Guildford/Redhill and then towards Ashford and Gatwick/Brighton.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you keep saying the width only becomes an issue on radii of 200m or less. In which case there are likely to only a few places where the tracks would need to be altered.

There is a need for regional express services in that area of the country. The gaps in electrification on these routes need to be filled and some kind of EMU will then be needed to run them. A decent train service would be well patronised within a week of opening.

"some kind of EMU" does not mean IEP, however as you also pointed out there are other limits (i.e. electrification) which need to be overcome before such a service would be able to run. As such the works to electrify would be paired with those works to reduce costs.
 

LE Greys

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"some kind of EMU" does not mean IEP, however as you also pointed out there are other limits (i.e. electrification) which need to be overcome before such a service would be able to run. As such the works to electrify would be paired with those works to reduce costs.

Indeed, it sounds like a decent route for the "Adelino" that Alstlom are supposed to be producing (see the Electric Voyager thread for that).
 

RAGNARØKR

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So the kinematic envelope is not taken into account when gauge clearance is checked on lines?!!?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you keep saying the width only becomes an issue on radii of 200m or less. In which case there are likely to only a few places where the tracks would need to be altered.

"some kind of EMU" does not mean IEP, however as you also pointed out there are other limits (i.e. electrification) which need to be overcome before such a service would be able to run. As such the works to electrify would be paired with those works to reduce costs.
There are not many of these tight curves but they tend to be in cramped locations, often urban situations, where it is difficult to get the spacing, otherwise they would have been eliminated long ago. It is one reason why, on 23 metre vehicles, the bogies are well in from the ends, which puts a strain on the drawgear and gangways.

The Danish/Swedish X31 are 26 metres long with the bogies close to the outer ends, giving rise to a bigger overhang. This is possible because there is not a clearance problem.

With any new stock, the more restricted the routes on which it operates, the less options there are for future redeployment.

I have noticed that you tend to think in a long time frame so you will be aware of what can happen a decade or two down the line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
..

As I've noted in other threads, some IEP infrastructure improvements (such as additional platforms at Bristol TM, or four tracking in that area) are being done as IEP upgrades because IEP will run at higher frequencies. Some improvements are to do with platform lengthening, another obvious way of expanding capacity. These latter aspects would be needed irrespective of IEP - if the (relatively short) HSTs happened to be replaced by 12 coach LHCS, and also running at higher frequencies, that would need much of the same so-called 'massive infrastructure improvements' as well...
A better SDO system would help. Something fitted to each doorway which prevented the door being opened unless it could "see" a platform adjacent. Would save a lot of problems and preferably could be retro-fitted.
 

rebmcr

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RAGNARØKR;1315356 said:
A better SDO system would help. Something fitted to each doorway which prevented the door being opened unless it could "see" a platform adjacent. Would save a lot of problems and preferably could be retro-fitted.

Presumably the only safe way to do that would be to embed balises along the entire edge of every platform in the system. Or rely on the guard to enable the balise detection at stations with it fitted, but that's adding a potential wrong-side failure.
 

jimm

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RAGNARØKR said:
There are not many of these tight curves but they tend to be in cramped locations, often urban situations, where it is difficult to get the spacing, otherwise they would have been eliminated long ago.

So where are all these tight curves, in cramped locations, in urban situations, that will have to be eliminated on Great Western routes in your "major infrastructure upgrade" in order for the IEP to be used on GW services? Just name them, so that at long last we will be able to judge whether what is required is in any way a "major infrastructure upgrade". No more diagrams, no more formulae, no more talk of kinematic envelopes. Provide some evidence. A Network Rail announcement perhaps. Shouldn't be hard to find one about a "major infrastructure upgrade"...
 

RAGNARØKR

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Presumably the only safe way to do that would be to embed balises along the entire edge of every platform in the system. Or rely on the guard to enable the balise detection at stations with it fitted, but that's adding a potential wrong-side failure.
There are many possible ways of doing it eg light or sound detectors eg an echo system. Initial thoughts might be a light source to each door and metal strip with Scotchlite on it. To prevent wrong side error two different colours could be used. Sound reflection can measure the distance, bats' ear style. But it needs to be kept simple.
 

ainsworth74

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Or we could just use the current system of platform beacons which tells a train how many doors to open?
 
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