If you could replace all of Northern's stock with a single type of DMU...?

[JohnCarlson]

If you had to replace everything operated by Northern except the electric units with a single type of DMU what would you use.?

 

[gazthomas]

A new build. 170/172 too small and poorly built, 185 too heavy.

Would need good sized doors and luggage space.

A new build of 158's

 

[anthony263]

A new build of 150/158's would be perfect.

As for who would build them maybe the Chineese

 

[northwichcat]

A new build. 170/172 too small and poorly built, 185 too heavy.

The criticism with 170s at Northern is usually that they are best suited to semi-fasts and express services and some of those types of services will become EMU operated in the near future.

Not sure about 172s being too small comment. They have 23m carriages and like most trains with 23m carriages have 2+2 seating. (Aren't the 185s also too small?) I'm sure you could build a 4 car 172 with around 260 seats for services that require that kind of capacity. I do think that generally with increasing passenger numbers, a larger sized population compared to the first part of the 1900s and considering DDA compliance that a 3 car train with 2+2 seating is what should be ordered to allow the 142s and 150s to be withdrawn.

You can't order new 185s as they fail the latest eco standards for new build trains. I think Siemens may come up with a new diesel Desiro design if an invitation to tender for a large order of DMUs is issued.
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As for who would build them maybe the Chineese

One Chinese company wants to build trains for the UK network: http://www.scmp.com/article/736125/chinese-trains-may-soon-run-british-rails (Obviously Ian Yeowart's proposed order for Polaris trains in mid-2011 didn't go ahead.)

It's believed Serco/Abeillo are a potential buyer with them mentioning a vague proposal in a Northern Rail magazine about acquiring new trains if they win the next Northern franchise. Although, they also said about new trains for Northern in 2003/2004.

 

[Haydn1971]

The worst possible thing you could do at Northern would be to replace the variety of stock they have with a single class.

You need semi-expresses, inter-urbans, metro style... Some services could sustain a first class cabin, some need a mix of table and airline seating, some need more standing room with seats against the carriage body.

 

[JohnCarlson]

If you were to do this would it bring about much in the way of economies of scale or do they need all those different types of unit?

Additionally by how much would you expand their fleet to relieve overcrowding and cope with growth? I would assume better less crowded trains would bring additional passengers.
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The worst possible thing you could do at Northern would be to replace the variety of stock they have with a single class.

You need semi-expresses, inter-urbans, metro style... Some services could sustain a first class cabin, some need a mix of table and airline seating, some need more standing room with seats against the carriage body.

Fair enough point although I would assume not each unit of the same type would need to have the same internal layout. I am thinking of airline companies that try to standardise fleets to bring down costs.

So if you had the option of replacing everything what would you get to try to bring in as much standardisation as possible?

 

[northwichcat]

The worst possible thing you could do at Northern would be to replace the variety of stock they have with a single class.

You need semi-expresses, inter-urbans, metro style... Some services could sustain a first class cabin, some need a mix of table and airline seating, some need more standing room with seats against the carriage body.

In reality a versatile class of trains would be better than the current arrangements.

A 172 on paper is ideal for the Mid-Cheshire line, Southport lines, the Warrington Central line and the Buxton line.

A 142 has the disadvantages of the poor comfort from both the ride quality and the internal layout with some journeys being 1 hour and more. (They are also banned from the Buxton line.)

A 150 also has the internal layout disadvantage.

A 142, 156 and 158 all have slower loading and unloading disadvantages at intermediate stations.

 

[Haydn1971]

OK, if I really had to standardise...

I'd imagine as a bare minimum, you would have some form of inter-urban unit with 4 cars, with half a carriage configured for first class and a built in drinks and snacks area for use on longer distance routes, the second would be a high capacity 3 car unit that was easy to double up to a 6 car unit for peak running.

You would need both diesel and AC versions, (DC potentially for Liverpool), all units would have 1/3 & 2/3 or 1/4 & 3/4 doors as end doors waste so much space. I'd like to see articulated couplings to provide additional standing space, with a mix of seating giving ample standing space near doors, good seating away from doors.

So potentially four different unit types, five if you include Liverpool, seven if you had a bi-modes - but essentially all could be derived from the same family

 

[craigwilson]

The worst possible thing you could do at Northern would be to replace the variety of stock they have with a single class.

You need semi-expresses, inter-urbans, metro style... Some services could sustain a first class cabin, some need a mix of table and airline seating, some need more standing room with seats against the carriage body.

It would be good maintenance-wise to have one set of stock, but as JohnCarlson suggests, they needn't have the same interiors. In the case of the Class 375 Electrostars, some have 3+2 seating only, some have 2+2, with tables. Additionally the 378s on London Overground (different class but still part of the Electrostar family) have the seats-against-the-wall design that would be useful for a high density service.

Same with the 350s that LM have.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm not sure exactly how many induvidual carriages Northern have right now, but putting aside the 333's let's say 700 ? A sustained program of new stock over the next franchise of 50-75 carriages per year would be just sweet for passengers and a new production facility in the north somewhere.

 

[317666]

I'd rather leave them as they are thank you very much, just new builds of all that there is so that units can be doubled up! (Oh I wish that was possible rather than the inevitable suggestions of 172s...)

 

[northwichcat]

Same with the 350s that LM have.

Although it's believed LM think the 350/2 interior spec was a mistake in hindsight.
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You would need both diesel and AC versions, (DC potentially for Liverpool), all units would have 1/3 & 2/3 or 1/4 & 3/4 doors as end doors waste so much space.

Merseyrail is on a 25 year concession that will get it's own new stock before the end of the term. There aren't any currently plans to run Northern services on to the presently self-contained Merseyrail lines other than ideas people have.
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and a new production facility in the north somewhere.

There's rules on tendering that wouldn't allow you to dismiss a good bid from a company planning to build trains in Birmingham or Bristol over one planning to build trains in Liverpool or Leeds for no other reason.

 

[Haydn1971]

There's rules on tendering that wouldn't allow you to dismiss a good bid from a company planning to build trains in Birmingham or Bristol over one planning to build trains in Liverpool or Leeds for no other reason.

Oh tell me about it ! This is a fantasy thread afterall

 

[Bevan Price]

Subject to them being guage compatible, a 23 metre version of Class 158, but with wider doors located as per Class 170/185 type arrangement. Variable formation - 3 or 4 coaches for busier routes, 2 coaches for less busy routes. 2+2 seating throughout, definitely no first class (largely a waste of space, and irritates passengers who have to stand on busy trains whilst they see nearly empty space in 1st class areas. )

If a few single coach units were deemed essential, then a "new 158" variant with a wide passenger entrance at the centre only (but facility for emergency exit via driving compartments).

 

[fgwrich]

OK, if I really had to standardise...

I'd imagine as a bare minimum, you would have some form of inter-urban unit with 4 cars, with half a carriage configured for first class and a built in drinks and snacks area for use on longer distance routes, the second would be a high capacity 3 car unit that was easy to double up to a 6 car unit for peak running.

You would need both diesel and AC versions, (DC potentially for Liverpool), all units would have 1/3 & 2/3 or 1/4 & 3/4 doors as end doors waste so much space. I'd like to see articulated couplings to provide additional standing space, with a mix of seating giving ample standing space near doors, good seating away from doors.

So potentially four different unit types, five if you include Liverpool, seven if you had a bi-modes - but essentially all could be derived from the same family

I'll concur with this.

As a unit choice though, id put the CAF3/4CK into the ring for this, as they seem to handle duel purpose service use rather well in NI - Local's such as the Bangor line, with the longer distance services such as the 'Derry's & occasional 'Enterprise' use. Bring along a few more EMU versions of this and you've got quite a high quality train that's got 1/3 & 3/4 doors and a good adaptable interior layout.

If we were going slightly cheaper, im sure Stadler could come up with something - they seem to be doing rather well on the continent.

 

[Voyagergirl]

I would use Class 175s. Some could be 2 car some could be 3 car. They can also adapt to commuter and long distance routes, being lightweight (unlike 170s) and having a higher max speed than the sprinter products.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I would have something like a 172 or a 170 as they are perfect, not too heavy for routes such as Chester-Manchester, Lincoln-Adwick but just perfect for express routes like Blackpool-York and Nottingham-Leeds. Got decent speed and just about the right size

 

[The Ham]

I have a few questions which may have a baring on what people think about which DMU's should be used for Northern:

Given the lines that will be electrified by 2019 and converted to EMU running, does Northern need so many different internal layout types on their "new" DMU's (i.e. do few enough of the high capacity/long distance/interurban/etc. services still need to be run by DMU's to make having a sub class for that type of service redundant)?

What would happen to the existing stock? I would assume that some of it would be scrapped (i.e. pacers), however could you not keep one class for use by Northern (especially if it was mechanically similar to the "new" DMU's) to reduce the number of internal layouts on the "new" DMU's.

Do you buy enough DMU's to cover what is needed for now, buy enough to keep one class of existing DMU's so that they can be scrapped if there is more electrification in CP6, or buy enough to cope with future demand (with or without keeping one class of existing DMU's)?

 

[northwichcat]

What would happen to the existing stock? I would assume that some of it would be scrapped (i.e. pacers)

Pacers - scrap them.

153s have various issues which may prevent them from staying in service long term so may need to be scrapped.

150s - there isn't a single unit that's fully accessible. There's 30ish units which have an accessible toilet - the expensive bit to make complaint. Come 2019 the worst units may need to be withdrawn or canabilised even if there wasn't an accessibility issue.

So that leaves us with the some 150s and all the 156s and 158s.

Now as I said the 153s are an issue. The 150s that don't get withdrawn and the Northern 156s could be used as class 153 replacement for the likes of Anglia, EMT etc.

That leaves the 158s. It might be useful to cascade some to EMT or ATW for extra capacity depending on growth. Although, Scotrail may also have spare Sprinters that can fill the same gap.

So that could leave Northern with a new class of trains operating alongside 158s.

Although, there is also the class 185 fleet to consider, which could finish up being Northern's to use or cascade if the Northern and TPE franchises are merged.

 

[150001]

I'd say the 172 (or 378 design train) or the CSRE Pacesetter http://go-op.coop/image/2/138/103/5//uploads/images/goop2.jpg. The LM 172s are excellent and a world away from the old 150s.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I would use Class 175s. Some could be 2 car some could be 3 car. They can also adapt to commuter and long distance routes, being lightweight (unlike 170s) and having a higher max speed than the sprinter products.

And being far more comfortable!
I travel with ATW daily on quiet and clean 175's and they are great. Unfortunately I then change to Northern and their cold, noisy, dirty and cramped diesel stock. Not the TOC's fault, I understand the terms of the franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

And being far more comfortable!
I travel with ATW daily on quiet and clean 175's and they are great. Unfortunately I then change to Northern and their cold, noisy, dirty and cramped diesel stock. Not the TOC's fault, I understand the terms of the franchise.

There used to be a morning peak working on the Mid-Cheshire line that was class 175 booked but there wasn't a return evening peak working that was better than a Sprinter. I wonder if people could have caught a 175 in both directions to work whether it would have increased patronage.

 

[bronzeonion]

Same interior layout etc as the London Midland Class 172's but with pocket doors instead of plug doors. That would be ideal, good acceleration, adequate comfort (anything is better than a Pacer/3+2 150) and air conditioning.

 

[johnnyp_360]

Same interior layout etc as the London Midland Class 172's but with pocket doors instead of plug doors. That would be ideal, good acceleration, adequate comfort (anything is better than a Pacer/3+2 150) and air conditioning.

Air con? this is the north remember

 

[Cheshire Rover]

There used to be a morning peak working on the Mid-Cheshire line that was class 175 booked but there wasn't a return evening peak working that was better than a Sprinter. I wonder if people could have caught a 175 in both directions to work whether it would have increased patronage.

Out of interest, did you ever use it? I can't fault the ATW 175's and in comparison to Northern stock they are much better.

 

[northwichcat]

Out of interest, did you ever use it? I can't fault the ATW 175's and in comparison to Northern stock they are much better.

Yes but not as a regular. The first time I caught it I checked I hadn't wandered in to a First Class carriage considering the seating and ample leg room compared to the refurbished 150s.

Rather confusingly it was initially listed in the FNW timetables as a Chester-Altrincham-Manchester Oxford Rd service but worked a Chester-Altrincham-Manchester-Warrington-Chester-Llandudno service with the PIS being programmed to say the train terminated at Manchester Piccadilly. The PIS also didn't allow for stations like Ashley being request stops.

When the North Wales route went to Wales and Borders they did make the timetable easier to understand. It was still listed as a Chester-Altrincham-Manchester Oxford Rd service but with a footnote saying train changes operator at Manchester Piccadilly and forms Wales and Borders service continuing to Llandudno.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Yes but not as a regular. The first time I caught it I checked I hadn't wandered in to a First Class carriage considering the seating and ample leg room compared to the refurbished 150s.

Rather confusingly it was initially listed in the FNW timetables as a Chester-Altrincham-Manchester Oxford Rd service but worked a Chester-Altrincham-Manchester-Warrington-Chester-Llandudno service with the PIS being programmed to say the train terminated at Manchester Piccadilly. The PIS also didn't allow for stations like Ashley being request stops.

When the North Wales route went to Wales and Borders they did make the timetable easier to understand. It was still listed as a Chester-Altrincham-Manchester Oxford Rd service but with a footnote saying train changes operator at Manchester Piccadilly and forms Wales and Borders service continuing to Llandudno.

It sounds like it was a long but comfortable journey from Chester to Manchester.
I have the trip along the Mid Cheshire on a Pacer once or twice. Not good.

 

[bronzeonion]

Air con? this is the north remember

 

[northwichcat]

It sounds like it was a long but comfortable journey from Chester to Manchester.
I have the trip along the Mid Cheshire on a Pacer once or twice. Not good.

Did you ever use the late afternoon loco-hauled Chester-Altrincham-Blackpool service that ran semi-fast on the Mid-Cheshire line under FNW? I think the time between departing Chester and arriving at Manchester Piccadilly was just under 1 hour 15.

 

[Class172]

Did you ever use the late afternoon loco-hauled Chester-Altrincham-Blackpool service that ran semi-fast on the Mid-Cheshire line under FNW? I think the time between departing Chester and arriving at Manchester Piccadilly was just under 1 hour 15.

What was this hauled by, a 37?