Interchange time between Kings Cross and St Pancras for CIV

[tannedfrog]

For the purposes of compliance with the CIV rules to get missed connection cover, does anyone know the minimum amount of time that must be allowed between arriving at Kings Cross and the departure time of the Eurostar.

Many thanks

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think it's the standard NRT connection time PLUS the minimum 30 minutes check in time.

 

[island]

I think it's +35mins.

 

[Max]

As quoted by barrykas in a recent post, the Commercial Information section of the NRT states that the connection time between St Pancras and Kings Cross is 30 minutes. You need to add on a further 35 minutes for Eurostar connections, giving a total of 65 minutes.

 

[barrykas]

The eNRT gives the standard minimum connection time between Kings Cross and St Pancras as 30 minutes, and says to allow an extra 35 minutes for Eurostar connections, so you're looking at 65 minutes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Ah... I was right first time; I shall edit my post to avoid possible confusion.

 

[steamybrian]

The eNRT gives the standard minimum connection time between Kings Cross and St Pancras as 30 minutes, and says to allow an extra 35 minutes for Eurostar connections, so you're looking at 65 minutes.

Interesting to know ...30 minutes minimum connection between Kings Cross and St. Pancras.
Mmmm... sure it is not a misprint and may have added a "0" in error....!?!
Ok I was in hurry... but I timed it recently from the ticket barrier of St.P.(LL) station to the ticket barrier of KX in.....3 minutes.
OK- it did not allow to get off one train at St. Pancras up the escalators through the barrier, across the road into Kings Cross, through the barriers, etc.

 

[30907]

Interestingly, Raileasy gives 16 minutes (excluding check in)

 

[jon0844]

There has always been a ridiculously long time to go from KFC to STP and vice versa. Of course, if you want to be covered then you have to accept it, so perhaps go a bit earlier still and grab a bite to eat or a beer. Now both stations have really nice pubs that do great food (in my opinion).

 

[barrykas]

Whilst it may be "ridiculously long" in the normal course of events, it's the figures in the eNRT that are the ones that count. Having said that, it appears they forgot to update the table after Victoria reopened as it's still giving a time of 126 minutes from there to Liverpool Street!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The minimum connection times are to account a number of factors, for example, those with disabilities or impairments, those with luggage and/or children and those who do not know where they are going. It is very easy to say a time is ridiculously long when the person knows the routes and stations inside-out, back to front and upside down, but if you have never been there before......

 

[All Line Rover]

Perhaps, then, ATOC would be kind enough to provide shorter connection times for us regular passengers / commuters, which we could select when booking tickets online. Not all of us have physical impairments, small children, mountains of luggage or are bamboozled by how to make a connection.

The cynic would say that this is only an attempt to artificially reduce the likelihood of delays to the overall journey by increasing the journey time. That's probably not the reason, but it certainly looks like it.

 

[causton]

Interesting to know ...30 minutes minimum connection between Kings Cross and St. Pancras.
Mmmm... sure it is not a misprint and may have added a "0" in error....!?!
Ok I was in hurry... but I timed it recently from the ticket barrier of St.P.(LL) station to the ticket barrier of KX in.....3 minutes.
OK- it did not allow to get off one train at St. Pancras up the escalators through the barrier, across the road into Kings Cross, through the barriers, etc.

I reckon you could get from Platforms 9-11 at Kings Cross to St Pancras Low Level barriers in under a minute - anyone with an Oyster card want to try and prove it with the online journey history?

 

[Goatboy]

I have a through booking with Eurostar - all booked online direct with Eurostar. I had no choice as to which inbound train I picked, it did it automatically based on my arrival time.

It has given me a 58 minute interchange time between London Euston and my Eurostar departure. Whilst I know this is not a problem it would appear that it is LESS than the required connection time for CIV protection. But Eurostar sold me this ticket combination and there was no way to change the choice of inbound train to Euston?

 

[jon0844]

I suppose it depends if someone tries to figure everything out on their own, or asks for assistance. Do the latter and you probably don't need that long, even from the two furthest reaches of each station.

But not everyone seeks help. I'm very much a typical man and wouldn't ask until I was desperate!

 

[jon0844]

I reckon you could get from Platforms 9-11 at Kings Cross to St Pancras Low Level barriers in under a minute - anyone with an Oyster card want to try and prove it with the online journey history?

Oh you definitely can. Used to do that when I worked at Farringdon. Easy walk over and on to a Thameslink train in a couple of minutes tops.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Perhaps, then, ATOC would be kind enough to provide shorter connection times for us regular passengers / commuters, which we could select when booking tickets online. Not all of us have physical impairments, small children, mountains of luggage or are bamboozled by how to make a connection.

The cynic would say that this is only an attempt to artificially reduce the likelihood of delays to the overall journey by increasing the journey time. That's probably not the reason, but it certainly looks like it.

Well, if that is the attitude to take, why have a minimum connection time at all? Why not just let people do what they want? Give someone, who has no knowledge of the change station, the free choice of a connection time and they will usually pick one that gives them the best journey time, rather than one they can actually make, so the problem with letting passengers choose the connection time is, frankly, the passenger (no offence intended).

 

[All Line Rover]

Well, if that is the attitude to take, why have a minimum connection time at all? Why not just let people do what they want? Give someone, who has no knowledge of the change station, the free choice of a connection time and they will usually pick one that gives them the best journey time, rather than one they can actually make, so the problem with letting passengers choose the connection time is, frankly, the passenger (no offence intended).

I see nothing wrong with having a 'minimum' and 'recommended' minimum connection time, especially if journey planners could take into account the platform trains are scheduled to use. If a passenger misses the 'minimum' connection time yet there is no disruption, he or she is not entitled to claim compensation for delay. Simple.

Crewe, for example, has a ridiculous minimum connection time of 10 minutes, prohibiting all of the following very reasonable connections for Nantwich travellers...

Nantwich [08:15] to Crewe [08:24] (arrives platform 6)
Crewe [08:29] to London [10:04] (departs platform 5, across the footbridge)
yet one has to wait for Crewe [08:56] to London [10:38] (departs platform 6)

Nantwich [07:13] to Crewe [07:24] (arrives platform 5)
Crewe [07:32] to Glasgow [10:36] (departs platform 6, across the footbridge)
yet one has to wait for Crewe [08:09] to Glasgow [11:17] (departs platform 11)

Nantwich [15:18] to Crewe [15:27] (arrives platform 6)
Crewe [15:32] to Liverpool [16:10] (departs platform 11, opposite)
yet one has to wait for Crewe [15:57] to Liverpool [16:45] (departs platform 11)

I could go on and on. These minimum connections times are really annoying for the regular traveller (which probably constitutes the majority of travellers making journeys involving connections, at least on weekdays), the Kings Cross to St Pancras minimum connection time being no exception.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And if there is a late notice platform alteration? What if a train is a minute late? What about advance tickets and split tickets? Could the railway leave someone miles from home with no money and no ticket (because of a missed connection)?

 

[All Line Rover]

And if there is a late notice platform alteration? What if a train is a minute late? What about advance tickets and split tickets? Could the railway leave someone miles from home with no money and no ticket (because of a missed connection)?

None of which affect my above examples, the OP's situation, or countless other journeys. All of which could affect any journey with connections that well exceed the minimum connection times.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So your journey planner improvements would ignore some tickets if you select less than the minimum interchange time and can predict platform alterations and minor late running?

 

[All Line Rover]

So your journey planner improvements would ignore some tickets if you select less than the minimum interchange time and can predict platform alterations and minor late running?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Platform alterations and minor late running (1 or 2 minutes) would not cause a frequent passenger to miss 'minimum' connection times. And with Advance tickets, if the connection is missed, passengers would travel on the next available service, as now.

 

[jon0844]

It might be good if planners could show earlier trains that could be used, albeit with a warning that it isn't a guaranteed connection. Many tickets are open so if you can get an earlier train, why not try?

Sure, you can look up an earlier train and see if that shows earlier connections that are 'doable' but that's a lot of fuss. And I know there are other ways, but Joe Public?

 

[Oscar]

The cynic would say that this is only an attempt to artificially reduce the likelihood of delays to the overall journey by increasing the journey time. That's probably not the reason, but it certainly looks like it.

The minimum connection times have been around for a long time, certainly well before the more generous Delay Repay scheme was introduced for example. I would be interested to know when they were introduced - was it under BR? I agree that the connection times are annoying and must put off many potential passengers. Situations where perfectly reasonable connections are not shown occur across the country, my bugbearer being Leeds with 10 minutes.

I have a through booking with Eurostar - all booked online direct with Eurostar. I had no choice as to which inbound train I picked, it did it automatically based on my arrival time.

It has given me a 58 minute interchange time between London Euston and my Eurostar departure. Whilst I know this is not a problem it would appear that it is LESS than the required connection time for CIV protection. But Eurostar sold me this ticket combination and there was no way to change the choice of inbound train to Euston?

If you want to be able to choose your train to Euston and use Railcard discounts on the ticket to Euston, use Eurostar Domestic Sales (01233 617913). I have been sold Eurostar connection tickets in person with less than the minimum connection time and assume that the railway companies involve are obliged to honour such connections. Eurostar Domestic Sales do now seem to have stopped selling tickets for St. Pancras - King's Cross connections of under 30 minutes. I don't think the connection times in the eNRT are checked or referred to very often in practice. I presume that the additional 35 minutes for Eurostar connections is intended to apply in the Continental direction only to allow for the check-in time but this is obviously not what is written.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Platform alterations and minor late running (1 or 2 minutes) would not cause a frequent passenger to miss 'minimum' connection times...

The depends entirely on how fine you cut things doesn't it. I mean, if I know a connection is 3 minutes, platform to platform, and I allow 4, a minute's delay or a platform alteration can make all the difference.

An example, I made a six minute connection at New Street, a few months ago, by seconds because I had the fortune of having looked at the station departure board from the comfort of the train, but suppose I hadn't, but the journey planner told me the platform before I left home. I get to New Street and race over to the platform I expect my next train to be on and discover it has changed to another platform, and as a result I miss it. Having told the journey planner I can make it in less than 6 minutes, who is at fault for me missing my train and what happens if I have only my advance ticket to travel on? Should the railway back down because they changed the platform or do I get stuck because I set a lower connection time.

Infact, even if I had an Off-Peak ticket and the connecting train was hourly, would I be entitled to compensation for my 'delay'?

....And with Advance tickets, if the connection is missed, passengers would travel on the next available service, as now.

Even if the passenger did not leave the minimum suggested connection time and set a connection time that was unrealistically low?

 

[bnm]

There has always been a ridiculously long time to go from KFC to STP and vice versa. Of course, if you want to be covered then you have to accept it, so perhaps go a bit earlier still and grab a bite to eat or a beer

Surely though if you are coming from KFC you'll have no need for a bite to eat!

 

[Goatboy]

If you want to be able to choose your train to Euston and use Railcard discounts on the ticket to Euston, use Eurostar Domestic Sales (01233 617913). I have been sold Eurostar connection tickets in person with less than the minimum connection time and assume that the railway companies involve are obliged to honour such connections. Eurostar Domestic Sales do now seem to have stopped selling tickets for St. Pancras - King's Cross connections of under 30 minutes. I don't think the connection times in the eNRT are checked or referred to very often in practice. I presume that the additional 35 minutes for Eurostar connections is intended to apply in the Continental direction only to allow for the check-in time but this is obviously not what is written.

I didn't even think about ringing them which is a shame as one of the tickets would have been eligable for railcard discount and obviously the EStar site has issued them as full fare. They are not particularly expensive so its not a big deal but they should perhaps make this sort of thing clear when booking. I just assumed, like SailRail, no railcard discounts applied.

 

[jon0844]

Surely though if you are coming from KFC you'll have no need for a bite to eat!

Hehe. The only thing getting eaten is this bloody auto correct!!

 

[34D]

my bugbearer being Leeds with 10 minutes.

When you have children you'll decide that 10 minutes is about sufficient to do p1 to p17 whilst dealing with ramps pushchairs lifts etc.