Boycott of the railways

[6Gman]

Doncaster to Scunthorpe - £10, should be no more than £6

Sheffield to Derby £15, should be around £9

Also, the government say there isnt enough funds to add extra coaches, yet charge these prices!

And who should then fund the 40% shortfall in income?

 

[SPADTrap]

Based on what exactly? A taxi would be four times that and take the same amount of time.

The one that has always got me is those that travel to the airports via a £100 taxi then complain that their flight to Paris has cost them £50..the amount of times I hear that!

 

[Goatboy]

The one that has always got me is those that travel to the airports via a £100 taxi then complain that their flight to Paris has cost them £50..the amount of times I hear that!

Why would anyone complain that a flight to Paris cost £50?!
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And who should then fund the 40% shortfall in income?

Devils advocate must ask you why your 40% calculation has assumed there would be a zero net change in passenger numbers

 

[SPADTrap]

Well I ask myself this every time! Still can't find a logical answer.

 

[tbtc]

On what basis have you decided what fares should and shouldn't be? Thats like me walking into Argos and saying that televisions costs £200, it shouldn't be more than £100.

If this kind of thing continues, before you know it we'll have big companies just deciding the rate of tax that they want to pay. Oh...

 

[455driver]

You cant just compare prices and distances that is not how the world works.

As I posted in post #3 but it just gets ignored as it doesnt suit the agenda of the "our railways are too expensive" brigade, round and round we go again.

 

[Goatboy]

With the greatest amount of respect though its always difficult having rational debate about fares on this particular forum as many of the responders are completely isolated from the high walk-on fares by virtue of the PRIV cards they have.

It's very easy to say there is no problem with fares when you get 75% off and it doesnt cost you £200 for an anytime return to London

 

[maniacmartin]

What I do find a bit off is the fact that Advance tickets and walk-up tickets for the exact same trains have such a high difference in price.

I can see why TOCs do this though: Businessman whose employers are footing the bill are happy to pay £lots for the ultimate flexibility, whereas cheapskates like me would in many cases just not make so many leisure trips if the price I paid for my advances is too high, so they'd lose out on revenue due to less journeys being taken.

However I don't think such a situation is that fair for a government subsidised public transport system. It may be fairer to abolish advance fares and bring down walk-up fares

 

[Goatboy]

We need a better fares system not neccesarily price cuts everywhere.

I have in my hand right now a £7.50 Advance Single from Birmingham New Street to London Euston on Virgin Trains. That is a staggeringly cheap ticket. Obviously I'm more than happy at only having to pay £7.50 for it but really it could be 3 times as expensive and still represent good value and in a way I'd rather it WAS 3 times more expensive and the savings used to lower the walk-on fares.

FGW have similar fares - there is a £14.00 Advance Single from Liskeard to Paddington. Exceptionally cheap. Like, bonkers cheap. It's cheaper than the cheapest single fare from Scarborough to York, a journey thats 5 times shorter!

 

[455driver]

With the greatest amount of respect though its always difficult having rational debate about fares on this particular forum as many of the responders are completely isolated from the high walk-on fares by virtue of the PRIV cards they have.

It's very easy to say there is no problem with fares when you get 75% off and it doesnt cost you £200 for an anytime return to London

Cant remember the last time I used my priv card as advance tickets are much cheaper (and restrictive), that is how much use the priv card is.
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I have in my hand right now a £7.50 Advance Single from Birmingham New Street to London Euston on Virgin Trains. That is a staggeringly cheap ticket. Obviously I'm more than happy at only having to pay £7.50 for it but really it could be 3 times as expensive and still represent good value and in a way I'd rather it WAS 3 times more expensive and the savings used to lower the walk-on fares.

Why dont you send Virmin trains a cheque for £15 then!

 

[Robert Taggart]

Ever since the railways were privatised one has found coach travel to be a decent alternative, but, only on the motorway connected routes. That said, Lundun remains preferable by train.
Under British Rail one could purchase a ticket to Lundun or beyond, turn up for any train and try any route - Our local station > Manchester Piccadilly > Lundun, OLS > Wilmslow > Lundun. Usually one would travel out via MP - easier to find a seat at the starting point ! Returning though, one would more often than not take any train (InterCity that is) to Crewe, change there for a train to Wilmslow, change there for a train to OLS. This alas was destroyed by the petty-mindedness which accompanied privatisation.
Now ? One hates the trains -units, units, units - and dreads a ticket check - even if the ticket was purchased legitimately !

 

[Captain Chaos]

With the greatest amount of respect though its always difficult having rational debate about fares on this particular forum as many of the responders are completely isolated from the high walk-on fares by virtue of the PRIV cards they have.

It's very easy to say there is no problem with fares when you get 75% off and it doesnt cost you £200 for an anytime return to London

Certainly not always the case. A Priv Return from London to Manchester on Virgin is more expensive than a Full Price Saver Return. So I don't use it. Nor the Saver Return either. I buy Advances. You can go 1st class there and back cheaper than a Priv return sometimes.

 

[AndyLandy]

I would personally disagree that high frequency has much of a relation to either the fares themselves or peoples willingness to pay. Journey time though, I would absolutely agree.

I think it's much smaller, but I do believe it has a bearing. Things like train condition also has a large bearing on this. I resent that it costs me £10 to get Northern from Cuddington to Manchester on a scratty, banged out old Pacer. If it cost £10, or even £15 for a return to Manchester, and the line was run with refurbished 150s, running at 2tph, I'd be much happier.

But if the journey times could be reduced, I'd be even happier still!

 

[Voyagergirl]

I am frequently on about faras as I think high fares is one of the key issues with our rail network. But those two you have highlighted don't seem that bad?

£10 return for a 26 mile journey Doncaster to Scunthorpe. Not cheap, but not exactly outrageous either is it?

Sheffield to Derby - 40 miles in half the time it would take by car? Again, it isnt cheap but its not a good example of the worst value offered.

I think that milage you quoted is a little inacurate. It's not quite as far as that.
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What experience have you got with pricing things in such a way? Or is that just what you'd 'feel like' paying? What's the TOCs operating costs for this? Quote me those and your post will hold some credibility.

I'm honestly curious.

Well bus and coach fares are considerably cheaper for the same distance. Megabus offer innercity travel for £9. Bus services usually charge a maximum of £4. I know it may be more expensive to run a train but as passenger levels are on the increase, the more that use it, the cheaper it should be. On some fares, a return is only 10p more, which doesn't make sense. I think the pricing is all wrong. I'm not an expert but it only takes someone with common sense to realise fares are far too expensive.

 

[Greenback]

Well bus and coach fares are considerably cheaper for the same distance. Megabus offer innercity travel for £9.

Is that a flat rate for any journey on Megabus?

Bus services usually charge a maximum of £4.

Where is this? The last time I tried a bus from Llanelli to Swansea it was £5.75 for a day return compared to £4.90 on the train!

I know it may be more expensive to run a train but as passenger levels are on the increase, the more that use it, the cheaper it should be. On some fares, a return is only 10p more, which doesn't make sense. I think the pricing is all wrong. I'm not an expert but it only takes someone with common sense to realise fares are far too expensive.

I would never argue that the UK fares system on the railways is perfect, many aspects of it make no sense at all. However, there is a large element of demand based pricing involved, and as anyone who has studied economics will testify, when demand outstrips supply, the cost rises. Likewise, when there is a surplus of supply against demand, the price falls.

Naturally, it's not as simple as that, as there are other factors involved, such as fare capping and government policy.

My personal opinion is that I'd rather see less of a difference between very cheap book ahead fares and walk up tickets, but this is not a view shared by the majority on here.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think that milage you quoted is a little inacurate. It's not quite as far as that.
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Well bus and coach fares are considerably cheaper for the same distance. Megabus offer innercity travel for £9. Bus services usually charge a maximum of £4. I know it may be more expensive to run a train but as passenger levels are on the increase, the more that use it, the cheaper it should be. On some fares, a return is only 10p more, which doesn't make sense. I think the pricing is all wrong. I'm not an expert but it only takes someone with common sense to realise fares are far too expensive.

The odd mile is hardly important here.

Im happy for the coach fares but that is because they offer an inferior service. That is why i often shop at Tesco not Netto. (obviously just an example!) Why arnt you also complaining that waitrose are more expensive than aldi?

I have been charged £5.80 singles on 12 mile bus rides before so yes they do charge more than £4 and on this route there is no option for return so it was £11.60 return. An equivalent rail journey would cost in the region of £5 return on the train. So i really find some fo your points to be rather pointless.

We accept that rail fares are expensive and it isnt perfect but you cannot make the direct comparrisons that many on here seem to be insisting on doing, but there is some justification as to why there are expensive which some of us have tried to explain, and the whole Europe does it better is absolute crap.

 

[theboywho]

I have found that my local operator (Northern) offer good value for money. Providing that you are prepared to travel at the less popular times of day, East Coast provide some terrific fares to London.

My relatives in the South East enjoy great value for money for fares between London and the Sussex coast - some of which come in at a whopping £5 single. That works out at five or six pence a mile.

 

[Roverman]

My relatives in the South East enjoy great value for money for fares between London and the Sussex coast - some of which come in at a whopping £5 single. That works out at five or six pence a mile.

Yes, Southern do offer some fantastic deals on some Advance singles if you are prepared to travel in the middle of the day or at an obscure time. However if you need to be in London before about 10am on a weekday you will have to pay substantially more than this. When I was taking my mum to UCH earlier this year for appointments it was around £30 each in advance and £53 on the day (we didn't always get a lot of notice).

The reason (I think) people get annoyed with three and four figure rail fares is that its difficult to see how it encourages one to not use the car when it costs substantially more, when you bear in mind that they are running the train regardless of whether you buy a ticket, and that they have already sold some tickets, do they really need to charge you £100 or more, it doesn't seem relative to the costs involved, especially when you consider that someone on that train is bound to have got some super-duper Advance for just £4.82.

As a taxpayer I am effectively paying twice; once in my taxes which are used to prop up a private-enterprise business and then as an actual fare paying passenger.

Yet ironically I am in the one group that doesn't get a nationwide Railcard discount on my fares, is this fair? In Germany I could buy an annual BahnCard and receive discounts on tickets (around 25%) which would encourage me to use the trains more as after say 10 trips the card will have paid for itself.

I doubt very much that a boycott would work unless a significant number of people stopped buying tickets. What will probably happen is that a few will try another form of transport and may ironically help with the overcrowding on some peak services!

 

[The Ham]

Yes, Southern do offer some fantastic deals on some Advance singles if you are prepared to travel in the middle of the day or at an obscure time. However if you need to be in London before about 10am on a weekday you will have to pay substantially more than this. When I was taking my mum to UCH earlier this year for appointments it was around £30 each in advance and £53 on the day (we didn't always get a lot of notice).

I went to UCH when the Hammersmith flyover was closed by car and back by train and it took 1/2 the time by train as it did by car (having just missed a train out of Waterloo by 2 minutes). The thing is train travel has much more reliable than it is to go by car, which is why people use it.

The reason (I think) people get annoyed with three and four figure rail fares is that its difficult to see how it encourages one to not use the car when it costs substantially more, when you bear in mind that they are running the train regardless of whether you buy a ticket, and that they have already sold some tickets, do they really need to charge you £100 or more, it doesn't seem relative to the costs involved, especially when you consider that someone on that train is bound to have got some super-duper Advance for just £4.82.

If no one brought tickets they wouldn't be running the train (or a lot fewer). Also why should someone who is prepared pay more than those that are not. Motorway services fuel and food cost a lot more than Tesco, yet they can charge that much because there isn't an alternative, same with the trains.

The problem is there isn't much need to make the trains a lot busier, especially in the south east or during peak hours, because they are fairly busy. Yes we should use trains and buses to get around more, but no there isn't the space for us to all do that on the rail network.

As a taxpayer I am effectively paying twice; once in my taxes which are used to prop up a private-enterprise business and then as an actual fare paying passenger.

As a tax payer you basicly only fund the rail network, not the train services (it costs the government £20 million a year in subsidies to the TOC after payments from the TOC are taken into account - which is a tiny amount for the government in the greater scheme of things). Most people with children at school will be paying more for their children's education than just their taxes (by going to school fates, paying for school trips, etc.).

If you want one and not the other it'll cost a lot more, free train travel for all, your taxes would have to be a lot higher (and you'd never get a seat anyway as EVERYONE would travel by train), no tax payer subsidy (including for the rail network) and your rail fares will have to be higher.

Yet ironically I am in the one group that doesn't get a nationwide Railcard discount on my fares, is this fair? In Germany I could buy an annual BahnCard and receive discounts on tickets (around 25%) which would encourage me to use the trains more as after say 10 trips the card will have paid for itself.

Which is why Railfuture have a campaign to introduce one, however the TOC would say why bother as we have enough people using the trains.

I doubt very much that a boycott would work unless a significant number of people stopped buying tickets. What will probably happen is that a few will try another form of transport and may ironically help with the overcrowding on some peak services!

I don't think even that would happen, a few may try something else for a month or two, but after a while will go back to the trains as they realise how much better it is.

 

[Goatboy]

The thing is train travel has much more reliable than it is to go by car, which is why people use it.

It generally isn't. Rarely do I ever suffer any sort of disruption, major or otherwise, when travelling by car. The M6 can suck, but thats pretty much it. I often have issues travelling by train. I don't mind - and I still use the train as I enjoy it - but it's not really true to say rail travel is more reliable than road travel because it often isn't. Just look at the flooding. Twice in 1 month now there has been SERIOUS disruption on the mian line from Devon to the rest of the country. The M5, however, was unaffected. There are local road closures but they cause nothing like the disruption the Cowly Bridge issue is causing. This isn't the railways fault, its nobodies fault, but it's a good example of how you cant really say rail is much more reliable. It's not. It is constrained by many factors that road is not.

Motorway services fuel and food cost a lot more than Tesco, yet they can charge that much because there isn't an alternative, same with the trains.

This is a poor analogy. Rail services are a form of publically funded public transportation which are here for economic and social benefits to the population of the country. Motorway petrol stations are not. Secondly in many years of driving on Motorways I have never once used a motorway service station because there ARE alternatives like.. driving to Tesco.

The problem is there isn't much need to make the trains a lot busier, especially in the south east or during peak hours, because they are fairly busy. Yes we should use trains and buses to get around more, but no there isn't the space for us to all do that on the rail network.

This is a government iussue. There is a need to make the trains a lot busier because the government has commited itself to ambitious emission reduction targets. Long term, less people need to use road and more people need to use rail. This means 2 things must happen:

a) More capacity
b) A carrot to tempt people onto rail. A good start would be a more reasonable fare structure.

A high quality, reasonably priced nationwide transport system is essential to a countries economic prosperity, wellbeing of its population and future growth. It is a governments duty to ensure this is provisioned.

All of the business related arguments against lower fares are totally valid. If the railway was 100% a private enterprise, and I was in charge, I would raise fares not lower them and I wouldnt waste money on additional capacity if I could acheive the same result with fare increases. Which just points to one thing - the operation model is deeply flawed. It shouldn't be run as a business and there should be no shareholders involved.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem is there isn't much need to make the trains a lot busier, especially in the south east or during peak hours, because they are fairly busy. Yes we should use trains and buses to get around more, but no there isn't the space for us to all do that on the rail network.

Which is why Railfuture have a campaign to introduce one, however the TOC would say why bother as we have enough people using the trains.

Which is curious as the South East is, effectively, the one part of the network which actually has a "Bahn Card".

One of the points raised by the railfuture proposal was that TOC's would actually make money from a national network card due to the revenue from the sale of the card itself to the large number of people outside of the South East.

Since private companies aren't known for turning down opportunities to make money, I can only assume that the proposals failure is down inertia/lack of cooperation between TOC's.

 

[AndyLandy]

Which is curious as the South East is, effectively, the one part of the network which actually has a "Bahn Card".

One of the points raised by the railfuture proposal was that TOC's would actually make money from a national network card due to the revenue from the sale of the card itself to the large number of people outside of the South East.

Since private companies aren't known for turning down opportunities to make money, I can only assume that the proposals failure is down inertia/lack of cooperation between TOC's.

As far as I can ascertain, the NSE card exists to encourage additional off peak travel. Rail fares in the South East are pretty pricey, even outside of peak times. Things like NSE cards and more restrictive Super Saver-type tickets start bringing prices down for off peak travellers. After all, we have huge amounts of capacity to get commuters in and out of London in the peak times, so there's bags of spare capacity at other times.

 

[theboywho]

The reason (I think) people get annoyed with three and four figure rail fares is that its difficult to see how it encourages one to not use the car when it costs substantially more, when you bear in mind that they are running the train regardless of whether you buy a ticket, and that they have already sold some tickets, do they really need to charge you £100 or more, it doesn't seem relative to the costs involved, especially when you consider that someone on that train is bound to have got some super-duper Advance for just £4.82.

I hear you Roverman, however I challenge anybody to realistically drive the competing journey within the same time boundaries, within legal speed limits and arrange suitable parking within reasonable distance of the finishing station for the same price.

From experience, driving to London from the Sussex coast during the day is certainly 'doable' within the two-hour mark, however to match the price that the railway is offering is certainly not doable. This excludes the cost of parking the car within central London for a reasonable rate.

As a taxpayer I am effectively paying twice; once in my taxes which are used to prop up a private-enterprise business and then as an actual fare paying passenger.

This is most unfortunate and a matter confined to politics.

 

[Goatboy]

I hear you Roverman, however I challenge anybody to realistically drive the competing journey within the same time boundaries, within legal speed limits and arrange suitable parking within reasonable distance of the finishing station for the same price.

Easy. I have many times tried to justify using rail from the Westcountry to Scotland for two of us. I love rail - thats why I'm here - but it never stacks up and I always end up driving instead.

London though, I agree with you. I drove once and almost certainly never will again. The train is quicker, easier, more convenient and cheaper than driving. Which is exactly how it should be. It just baffles me how it works for some trips but can be so far out on others. Some of the pricing on the rail network is absolutely spot on. But there seems no real consistency.

We need a rail network that makes people think 'Why would I drive today'. This is a far more efficient way of acheiving government targets than forcing people to use public transport instead. To make people make this choice, rail needs to be convenient and well priced compared to the car which for 90% of the public will always be the first choice becuase they value privacy and convenience over what rail offers them. They need some other incentive to give those up. This is almost always price.

 

[yorksrob]

As far as I can ascertain, the NSE card exists to encourage additional off peak travel. Rail fares in the South East are pretty pricey, even outside of peak times. Things like NSE cards and more restrictive Super Saver-type tickets start bringing prices down for off peak travellers. After all, we have huge amounts of capacity to get commuters in and out of London in the peak times, so there's bags of spare capacity at other times.

Outside of PTE areas, off peak fares are quite pricey in the rest of the country as well, so the national rail card would most probably generate business.

As for capacity - it's certainly true that we don't have as much spare as the South East. There are some standing room only pinch points such as the trans Pennine core, Lancaster - Barrow, however, I travel quite a lot around the North, and whilst a lot of trains are busy and well loaded at weekends, there are usually spare seats available except on last trains back and xmas shopping days etc.

 

[AndyLandy]

As a taxpayer I am effectively paying twice; once in my taxes which are used to prop up a private-enterprise business and then as an actual fare paying passenger.

This is most unfortunate and a matter confined to politics.

I don't feel so bad about that. My taxes are paying for both road and rail infrastructure, even though I'm predominantly only using one of those. It's the same for any amortised funding model. As far as I'm concerned, I pay my TV licence for shows like Doctor Who, even though the reality of it is very different.

 

[radamfi]

Which is curious as the South East is, effectively, the one part of the network which actually has a "Bahn Card".

But the Network Railcard only gives discounts off-peak, with a minimum fare, whereas the Bahncard 25 and Bahncard 50 give 25% and 50% off at all times. In addition, rail fares in the SE are generally higher than elsewhere, so the Network Railcard discount basically brings down fares to a more comparable level to the rest of the country.

I think it is best to steer this conversation away from travel to central London as that is clearly a captive market. What is important is whether rail can compete with the car for trips where the car is a realistic option.

The argument that train services are already busy doesn't wash because the capacity outside the SE is artificially restricted with short trains and outdated infrastructure. You need to compare the distance travelled by rail per capita for rail passengers outside the SE with those in say, Switzerland or Germany. That makes the UK rail network look very under-utilised.

 

[yorksrob]

But the Network Railcard only gives discounts off-peak, with a minimum fare, whereas the Bahncard 25 and Bahncard 50 give 25% and 50% off at all times. In addition, rail fares in the SE are generally higher than elsewhere, so the Network Railcard discount basically brings down fares to a more comparable level to the rest of the country.

I must admit, I wasn't aware that the Bahn Card was so generous. Personally, I think a Network Card type system would be a perfectly acceptable place to start, and whilst no travel restrictions would be lovely, I think off peak travel restrictions would be necessary to avoid peak overcrowding in the provinces.

I'm sure we've had the debate about rail fares before, and we concluded that whilst some London fares in the South East were more expensive than elsewhere, mile for mile, non Inter-City/PTE journeys in the rest of the country were broadly comparable to non-London fares in the South East.

 

[radamfi]

Leisure travellers in Germany who don't mind restricting themselves to RE, RB and S-Bahn trains can travel at unbelievably low rates, without the need for a Bahncard. You can travel nationwide after 0900 for €44 a day, or €68 for a group of five. At the weekend, it is even cheaper at €42 for a group of 5, which includes travel on local transport as well, and also includes some lines in Denmark, the Netherlands, Poland, Austria and Switzerland.

 

[yorksrob]

Leisure travellers in Germany who don't mind restricting themselves to RE, RB and S-Bahn trains can travel at unbelievably low rates, without the need for a Bahncard. You can travel nationwide after 0900 for €44 a day, or €68 for a group of five. At the weekend, it is even cheaper at €42 for a group of 5, which includes travel on local transport as well, and also includes some lines in Denmark, the Netherlands, Poland, Austria and Switzerland.

It sounds as though we have a long way to go !