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Its been 2 years since GREAT First turn around

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overthewater

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But has anything really changed?

Tim O’Toole become head of the company ni November 2010, Giles head of the bus operation in Feb 2011. Apart from Handful of cut back and sell off, the Mixed review of the livery and some fleet investment. Nothing much has really changed?

Could alot more be done? what is needing to be doing? Can anything be done?

It just seems so SLOW paced, Can 2013 finally bring us the BIG Bang we have all been expecting? Will there be improvement in new fleet? which will allow it to become DDA by 2014?
 
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Lrd

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I think First Bus are doing some good things.

They completely revamped the timetable round here and it seems to be going well, I now have an express bus that takes half the time to get to town and is very frequent.

They have a nice Android app that is really useful to look at timetables and service disruption.

They have a local twitter feed which is useful.

All they need now is some shiny new buses :)
 

BestWestern

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Nothing will change. First's bus operation appears to be in serious decline, they shunned their roots a long time ago with the statement that they were now 'a train operator who also run buses' or something similar, and the current franchise headache and loss of WestCoast has done them no favours at all. Shares were well over £3 just a couple of years or so back, they're about half that now.

Firstgroup and it's bus division are a prime example of an outfit who invest far too much effort in gloss and publicity and not nearly enough towards what they actually do. There is much corporate propaganda trying to convince everybody that they are a market leader, whilst many users would suggest that this is simply not the case, and indeed the company is completely failing to address the problems with the product on offer. There's no avoiding the harsh reality that First's bus offerings are universally poor. The scruffy, dirty, badly turned out vehicles that have become the hallmark of their operations speak volumes; the attitude is very much one of a company who have a captive market and know it, and therefore seemingly feel no need to put any degree of effort into anything beyond doing the bare minimum. From time to time there will be a big glossy 'event', for example the 'ftr' concept which was launched with massive hype as the future of bus travel. It died a slow and painful death, helped on it's way by the lackluster running of the whole project (on-board ticket machines which didn't work properly, use of standard buses on supposed 'ftr' services, poor provision of traffic priority, etc). A few years prior to that First were preaching of how they had decided that nobody wanted to ride on double decker buses any more and they were sparking a bendy bus revolution. That fell on it's backside too, ending up with batches of expensive vehicles roaming the country trying to find a fleet manager who would have them. The latest happening is the new colour scheme, with it's incredible concept of incorporating local place names - or 'branding', as every other operator has called it for the past 15 years or so. Give it a little while and the branding will slowly dissapear as vehicles are reallocated around the empire and depots lose interest in paying for and applying enormous vinyls every time.

The new livery - not the most pleasing I've ever seen - will not fix the fundamental problem with Firstgroup's mentality of pushing glossy leaflets and hoping nobody notices the reality. The top brass need to stop believing their own hype and take a look at how much better the competition is.
 
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Aictos

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Nothing will change. First's bus operation appears to be in serious decline, they shunned their roots a long time ago with the statement that they were now 'a train operator who also run buses' or something similar, and the current franchise headache and loss of WestCoast has done them no favours at all. Shares were well over £3 just a couple of years or so back, they're about half that now.

Firstgroup and it's bus division are a prime example of a outfit who invest far too much effort in gloss and publicity and not nearly enough towards what they actually do. There is much corporate propaganda trying to convince everybody that they are a market leader, whilst many users would suggest that this is simply not the case, and indeed the company is completely failing to address the problems with the product on offer. There's no avoiding the harsh reality that First's bus offerings are universally poor. The scruffy, dirty, badly turned out vehicles that have become the hallmark of their operations speak volumes; the attitude is very much one of a company who have a captive market and know it, and therefore seemingly feel no need to put any degree of effort into anything beyond doing the bare minimum. From time to time there will be a big glossy 'event', for example the 'ftr' concept which was launched with massive hype as the future of bus travel. It died a slow and painful death, helped on it's way by the lackluster running of the whole project (on-board ticket machines which didn't work properly, use of standard buses on supposed 'ftr' services, poor provision of traffic priority, etc). A few years prior to that First were preaching of how they had decided that nobody wanted to ride on double decker buses any more and they were sparking a bendy bus revolution. That fell on it's backside too, ending up with batches of expensive vehicles roaming the country trying to find a fleet manager who would have them. The latest happening is the new colour scheme, with it's incredible concept of incorporating local place names - or 'branding', as every other operator has called it for the past 15 years or so. Give it a little while and the branding will slowly dissapear as vehicles are reallocated around the empire and depots lose interest in paying for and applying enormous vinyls every time.

The new livery - not the most pleasing I've ever seen - will not fix the fundamental problem with Firstgroup's mentality of pushing glossy leaflets and hoping nobody notices the reality. The top brass need to stop believing their own hype and take a look at how much better the competition is.

Couldn't agree anymore, too much thought is placed in the hype and not in the substance.
 

34D

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for example the 'ftr' concept which was launched with massive hype as the future of bus travel. It died a slow and painful death, helped on it's way by the lackluster running of the whole project (on-board ticket machines which didn't work properly, use of standard buses on supposed 'ftr' services, poor provision of traffic priority, etc).

Don't forget that the yorkshire ftr's are now on the next phase of their lifecycle on hyperlink route 72, Leeds-Bradford.

But yes, I agree with most of what you have said
 

BestWestern

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Don't forget that the yorkshire ftr's are now on the next phase of their lifecycle on hyperlink route 72, Leeds-Bradford.

But yes, I agree with most of what you have said

They are, but this has only just been launched and the vehicles themselves have been doing nothing particularly useful for the past few years since they were new. I get the impression their new use has been 'found' for them.
 

tbtc

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Could alot more be done? what is needing to be doing? Can anything be done?

It just seems so SLOW paced

On the "sell off" thread you keep listing all of the places that have seen revamped networks, repainted buses etc. I'm not sure what more you really expect a bus company to do?

They've bought a lot of new buses - not distributed them evenly around the country of course - some favourite areas do better than others - we've not seen new buses for commercial* routes in South Yorkshire for almost five years.

(i.e. excl the small number of Enviro 200s for the Sheffield "FreeBee" and the B7RLEs for the Doncaster Park And Ride - both of which are tendered routes)
 

BestWestern

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One thing I fail to understand is why First maintain their policy of buying really rather nice vehicles, and then run them into the ground. Stagecoach for example buy basic-spec motors but then generally tend to ensure that they are well presented for the duration of their working lives. The painting cycle always used to be three years at Stagecoach - it may well still be - whereas our local First fleet has ten year old motors still wearing their original coat, or what remains of it at least. The odd effort would be made to 'touch in' the lower half of particularly scruffy examples, which I always thought was an incredibly cheap tactic!

Similarly, if you go and take a look at Wilts & Dorset's fleet you'll find 25 year old Olympians with a shiny coat that would embarrass most of First's motors. It really doesn't take much to keep a fleet of buses looking half decent, and it does make a difference to people's perception of an operator.
 

tbtc

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One thing I fail to understand is why First maintain their policy of buying really rather nice vehicles, and then run them into the ground. Stagecoach for example buy basic-spec motors but then generally tend to ensure that they are well presented for the duration of their working lives. The painting cycle always used to be three years at Stagecoach - it may well still be - whereas our local First fleet had then year old motors still wearing their original coat. The odd effort would be made to 'touch in' the lower half of particularly scruffy examples, which I always thought was an incredibly cheap tactic!

Similarly, if you go and take a look at Wilts & Dorset's fleet you'll find 25 year old Olympians with a shiny coat that would embarrass most of First's motors.

Agreed - we still have R-reg B10BLEs in Sheffield running around with their red and yellow "Mainline" seat covers etc.
 

BestWestern

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Agreed - we still have R-reg B10BLEs in Sheffield running around with their red and yellow "Mainline" seat covers etc.

They are at least decent motors though, particularly with Wright Renown bodywork. They deserve a decent refurb!
 

tbtc

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They are at least decent motors though, particularly with Wright Renown bodywork. They deserve a decent refurb!

Cracking machines, but allowed to get into a terrible state - no TLC for over a decade.

I agree with your point about First buying better buses and running them into the ground
 

anthony263

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First certaily need to up their game with the bus divisions.

South Wales did go close to 100% low floor about 18 months ago now its all changed since we have at least 3 step entrance darts from Hampshire and devon & cornwall.

The FTR service is Swansea does seem to have the been the only FTR scheme to have been really sucessful and is very well used especially during the peaks and when there is matches at the liberty stadium.

That said First's south wales operation has been especially neglected so can we really be surprised that the local independents are expanding rapidly two in particular, SWT(Neath) who have now set up another local bus operator Neath & Distict (A name some of the older members of this forum may remember) and New Adventure Travel group who have now taken over the former Veolia depot in Abercrave and in Crossgates have won a lot of tenders in Powys.

Seems Stagecoach have registered to extend some of the journeys on service 50/60A Cardiff - Pontypridd - Abercynnon - Aberdare - Hirwaun through to Glyneath, Neath and Swansea with buses running every 15 minutes between Aberdare & Pontypridd with hourly extensions to Swansea and Cardiff.

This does look like Stagecoach are finally starting their challenge to First Cymru particulary since First have attempted to Challenge Stagecoach Cymru's domination in the Cardiff Valleys.

I am looking forward to seing what happens when a lot of the tenders for service in Carmarthenshire & Pembrokeshire come up for renewal during 2013 since I can see First loosing a lot of ground and I wonder could we see Stagecoahc buses running west of Swansea.

Greyhound in particular is another area where First have taken their eye off the ball it coudl easily have been a lot more sucessful than it has been. Again the South Wales Greyhound operations seems to have been the only one to really be sucessful, not surprising since the route has also been profitable and the only compeition between Cardiff & Swansea is National Express and now megabus as well the local rail services



My final point I certainly hate the new liveries and would very much like First to go back to their routes and restire the old liveries bring back the Badger logo etc
 

BestWestern

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Cracking machines, but allowed to get into a terrible state - no TLC for over a decade.

I agree with your point about First buying better buses and running them into the ground

I do have a theory that they buy Volvo because the things pretty much look after themselves - check the levels every night and put diesel in and they'll go. Of course, they'll end up with the inevitable Firstgroup 'patina', but they'll still start every morning!
 

vicbury

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It's interesting how much First's operations vary from depot to depot. In Bristol both Hengrove and Lawrence Hill turn out vehicles that by and large are excellently maintained, regardless of age. That said, Hengrove and Lawrence Hill both have fairly modern fleets with lots of 05-09 plate B7TLs and B9TLs as well as some 06 plate Darts and 59 plate B7Rs.

By contrast virtually all of the vehicles in neighbouring Bath are wrecks, even the newest ones. I don't buy the argument that Volvo's look after themselves either as Bath's Volvo's are a state. However I have never been an any vehicle operated by First which was in as poor condition as the B7TLs operated by Arriva London. These buses (operating on routes 253/254) typically had damaged front and rear suspension, engine cooling fans always running, lots of vibration when idling, loud air leaks from the exit doors, various damage to the interior and exterior; and it was rare if not impossible to find one with none of the above defects. So whilst First may not be the best for maintenance, they are by no means the worst.

Despite that, both Bristol and Bath have good networks of routes which have seen some increases in frequencies and new or extended routes in recent years. Patronage in Bristol seems to be pretty good, and the council have helped with smart new bus shelters such as these, with RTI at lots of stops too. The main problem with First around here is that their prices aren't particularly competitive, but apart from that they run a decent operation in Bristol.
 

SF-02

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I've never known another company that was so focused upon the short term and the next quarters financial results that it completely gave up on any sort of long term planning. They would never do anything that could give a short term loss even if it could give long term benefits. A year with their bus service in 2006 was enough to make me loath them and every facet of their bus business and stopped me using them ever since.
 
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bb21

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Nothing will change....

I don't normally comment in this manner however I must say that your post is spot on. The bus side of the group is stuck in a vicious circle which they can only get out of with a change in attitude from the top. There seems to have been a change in focus since Moir Lockhead left, and so far the interim verdict is not positive. One simple phenomenon I have noticed might help explain to a certain degree why they're in decline. In my memory, First used to offer the cheapest fare in most places, despite running tatty buses. Nowadays they are the most expensive operator in all the places I regularly visit, yet still with the oldest buses in the most disgusting states.
 

overthewater

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I don't normally comment in this manner however I must say that your post is spot on. The bus side of the group is stuck in a vicious circle which they can only get out of with a change in attitude from the top. There seems to have been a change in focus since Moir Lockhead left, and so far the interim verdict is not positive. One simple phenomenon I have noticed might help explain to a certain degree why they're in decline. In my memory, First used to offer the cheapest fare in most places, despite running tatty buses. Nowadays they are the most expensive operator in all the places I regularly visit, yet still with the oldest buses in the most disgusting states.

What about Magic bus ;)

The thing is First is NO longer the biggest bus company in UK, it belong to stagecoach, who contain to let local areas control there own destiny, while also given EVERY company new fleet nearly every single year. with fare increase once a year, which has resulted in no company making a loss and most making profits around 15-20% each.

I do believe First needs to cut back even further to have any chance of overhauling its operations. I have heard a few people in Aberdeen head office are not happy about the changes, well to be honest those people should be sent out the door......
 

BestWestern

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What about Magic bus ;)

I have heard a few people in Aberdeen head office are not happy about the changes, well to be honest those people should be sent out the door......

I doubt whether many people in Aberdeen head office have the faintest interest in what is going on beyond the end of their desk to be honest :|

As for Magic Bus, this was of course an intentionally budget-focused operation, which gave Stagecoach fleets a use for their older vehicles whilst providing a cheaper travel option for passengers on certain corridors; a 'legitimate' use for the old buses I suppose you might say. Some of the vehicles in those fleets were in considerably better nick than some of First's mainstream stuff!
 

Tom B

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Recently I travelled on a Firstbus for the first time in a while and, to be honest, nothing's changed.

They have a shiny new livery - but I'm waiting to see how long that lasts. As others have stated, First love their glitzy schemes and names for things, but never follow through with it. Certainly in South Yorkshire, they don't ever invest in their vehicles unless they are coaxed into doing it by the local PTE. They purchased fresh ticket machines which read RFID passes, yet still insist on printing tickets for OAPs and selling season tickets on paper rather than using cards. Timetables and faretables are almost impossible to get hold of. All in all they appear obsessed with running their operation into the ground!
 

SF-02

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Recently I travelled on a Firstbus for the first time in a while and, to be honest, nothing's changed.

They have a shiny new livery - but I'm waiting to see how long that lasts. As others have stated, First love their glitzy schemes and names for things, but never follow through with it. Certainly in South Yorkshire, they don't ever invest in their vehicles unless they are coaxed into doing it by the local PTE. They purchased fresh ticket machines which read RFID passes, yet still insist on printing tickets for OAPs and selling season tickets on paper rather than using cards. Timetables and faretables are almost impossible to get hold of. All in all they appear obsessed with running their operation into the ground!

That's First bus for you. They wont do anything that costs a bit of money short term but would bring long term benefits.
 

overthewater

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That's First bus for you. They wont do anything that costs a bit of money short term but would bring long term benefits.

Unlike stagecoach we would spend the money on lose making ideas to get them off the ground to make the megabucks further down the line ;)
 

anthony263

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That's First bus for you. They wont do anything that costs a bit of money short term but would bring long term benefits.


Exactly true and the management at First wonder why the bus operations are not doing too well.

They seriously need to take lessons from Stagecoach who are certainly benefiting from their long term investment many routes inb the south wales valleys are due to be increased in frequency an example being service 120/130 Blaencwm/Treherbert -Porth - Pontypridd - Caerphilly which is being increased to operate every 12-15 minutes
 

overthewater

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Exactly true and the management at First wonder why the bus operations are not doing too well.

They seriously need to take lessons from Stagecoach who are certainly benefiting from their long term investment many routes inb the south wales valleys are due to be increased in frequency an example being service 120/130 Blaencwm/Treherbert -Porth - Pontypridd - Caerphilly which is being increased to operate every 12-15 minutes


There could also Follow Go-Ahead which are doing a grand job asewll. :D
 

BestWestern

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There could also Follow Go-Ahead which are doing a grand job asewll. :D

They are indeed very good. Their Go South Coast operations with Bluestar, Wilts & Dorset and Southern Vectis are all very impressive, certainly from an observer's point of view at least, and of course the excellent Brighton & Hove outfit is rightly recognised as one of the UK's best operators.
 

causton

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I only have one experience of First bus outside of London (after all, TfL force them to look after themselves in London) and that was the old 5 service in Northampton. The bus was an old tatty Olympian which was late, the driver's ticket machine didn't work properly and didn't have the correct fares set up (for the Northampton Buzz Card), and the driver didn't change the blind so it was saying it was heading out of Northampton when it was heading into Northampton. As there is a section where both directions use the same stop, it confused a few passengers... later I heard that they had given it up, and now it's being run by much smarter Stagecoach vehicles! :)
 
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