Early Bus drivers to consider walkout

[Mojo]

Bus drivers in Bristol are considering strike action after some of their colleagues were sacked for finishing their routes early.

First Bus said some drivers have been leaving stops early in an attempt to get back to the depot for a meal break or for the end of their shift.

First said this was "gross misconduct" and 14 drivers have so far been sacked.

The Transport and General Workers' Union says it will consider action unless the drivers are re-instated.

Malcolm Green from the T&G said: "Our members have taken a concerned view."

The union said such early running should not happen, but that sacking a driver for their first offence regardless of their history with the company is "draconian".

Russell Barrington Crow, from First Bus, said: "We're not happy to be doing this but we need to enforce something that is easier to avoid."

"It is frustrating for [customers]".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/6593079.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/...3879.stm&news=1&bbram=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&nbwm=1 (video)

Seems suprising, given they're apparently always short of drivers.

 

[nath9425]

It's down to the passenger not the driver weather your there on time! I think First need to consider the words and job occupation of a "Traffic Warden" I mean Bristol is full of them! Same as trains! Quickest turn around as possible helps!

 

[ChrisCooper]

It happens all the time around here, buses often go past my house before they were supposed to be at the timing point over a mile back. This means people often miss the bus, or alternativly have to go out early and then stand around for ages if the bus is one time. Running early is quite a serious offence, and there isn't really an excuse for it, and most of the time when it happens it's so the drivers can get home or start their break early, or just have time for a fag between runs. Then again, if drivers have been sacked for first offences it's not so good, particularly since they might have been trained that it's acceptable (if it's anything like my local company, route training is done by other drivers), they should be givern a warning, and only if this doesn't stop them should further action be taken.

 

[Kris]

It's always been the same - trying to get back to the depot as quickly as possible - you'll probably see some double decker speed records broken then

On London Transport we used to get away with going past the inspector early as long as one didn't go into double figures. You wanted to get to the other end (Camden or Chelsea in my case 31's) for a cuppa.

And when I wanted to finish early so I could get across to Euston to go home to Coventry for a couple of days, I used to ask the inspector for a turn - only going part way so you could come back earlier.

On Wilts 'n' Dorset we only got 5 minutes in between trips so the chance to grab a quick drink was really necessary. When they privatised they only paid you for you break if it was over 1/2 an hour. Needless to say they made all breaks 29mins.

That's when I left to join the railway and give up working for a living. That said - it's more interesting driving a bus than a train but the views from the window aren't as good.

 

[Jim]

On Wilts 'n' Dorset we only got 5 minutes in between trips so the chance to grab a quick drink was really necessary. When they privatised they only paid you for you break if it was over 1/2 an hour. Needless to say they made all breaks 29mins./QUOTE]

I have found W&D have got worse since privitisation, the only good duty left last summer (sunday) was 081, a Salisbury duty, which involved 1000 Salisbury - Swanage & 1700 return back at 1855. Best bit was, it was fully paid, so you got 5 hours on the beech for free!

 

[Dennis]

I have found W&D have got worse since privitisation

Errm...wasn't W&D privatised around the same time as most of the rest of the bus industry? Another one of Mrs T's masterstrokes, ultimately giving us wonderful bust companies such as First, Stagecoach, Arriva, GoAhead etc. In which case,

I don't think you are old enough to remember the W&D aervices in public ownership. The acquisition of W&D by GoAhead though is a different story though....

 

[Coxster]

It's always been the same - trying to get back to the depot as quickly as possible

You must be right annoyed now though as you can't leave stations until the guard lets you Not that early trains exist of course...

 

[Mojo]

Look at Fratton

 

[Kris]

You must be right annoyed now though as you can't leave stations until the guard lets you Not that early trains exist of course...

Capital offence to run early on the railway. When you are finished though and taking empty stock back ....... that's a different story.

 

[Jim]

Errm...wasn't W&D privatised around the same time as most of the rest of the bus industry? Another one of Mrs T's masterstrokes, ultimately giving us wonderful bust companies such as First, Stagecoach, Arriva, GoAhead etc. In which case,

I don't think you are old enough to remember the W&D aervices in public ownership. The acquisition of W&D by GoAhead though is a different story though....

Go Ahead got it in 2003 IIRC

 

[yorkie]

Some bus drivers seem to consider themselves to be above some laws and rules, so I can see why they are so shocked at that ending. They're a disgrace, frankly.

They should abide by the rules. If they do not obey the rules then they should expect disciplinary action. Just because they're bus drivers does not give them the right to make the rules up as they go along.

There are some good bus drivers out there, but they're given a bad name by the ones who leave stops early, are rude to customers and generally misbehave.

If they walk out, let them, good riddance. I am sure plenty of people will be queing up to get a job to replace them.

 

[Guinness]

If they walk out, let them, good riddance. I am sure plenty of people will be queing up to get a job to replace them.

No doubt foreigners with Poor English and can't adapt to UK Driving Ways....

 

[Kris]

If they walk out, let them, good riddance. I am sure plenty of people will be queing up to get a job to replace them.

I'm not having a go but you really need to have done the job to understand.

Bus drivers have some of the worse working conditions and lowest pay rates in the country. On LT I used to get paid straight through for a 12 hour spread. On W&D you never got paid for the 4 hours off in between.

After privatisation they introduced getting paid for time behind the wheel only!!! Don't know if this is still the case but I expect it is.

When Stagecoach took over a company in the South they shut the canteen and gave the drivers a Portacabin with a kettle.

Queing up for a job - you must be joking. Look at the constant adverts for bus drivers - can't keep the staff because of the pay and conditions. As Chaz says - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys - in this case Polish bus drivers or other nationalities who don't speak English and whose standard of driving is questionable.

And I'm not anti Pole or anybody else either - they have a better work ethic than most English people. SWT struggle to find people to sit at the back of 455's for £23,000 a year - that's why they went to Nigeria to recruit.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I was reading something not long ago saying how bus drivers used to be payed about the same as train drivers, but these days train drivers can earn twice as much or more per hour. Oviously, the question is are train drivers overpaid or bus drivers underpaid. It's probably a bit of both, although train driver wages are probably closer to what they should be. Bus driver wages though are very poor for a job that involves responsibility for the safety of nearly 100 passengers (on a busy double decker), and other road users, requires near constant concentration whilst on the move (you have to have driven a large vehicle to understand how much extra concentration is required compared to driving a car), dealing with ever changing road conditions, and ontop of all that there is the customer service aspect aswell, including the too common problems. Also, training is often not that good, so in general a bus driver is on their own when dealing with problems and has to work on initiative, no parrot style repeating of the proceedures to deal with an issue. Also, mistakes can be very costly with very little in the way of safety issues, and to make matters worse, in an accident, the driver will often be scapegoated without bothering to look at other factors. It's time companies realised that if they gave drivers a decent wage, they would likely save in the long run through lower staff turnover, increased passenger numbers (due to better driving and customer service), less accidents and less illness (whether real of fake).

 

[Mojo]

I think it's all down to the unions. At the time of bus deregulation, the bus union didn't fight for better pay & conditions for its drivers - maybe in part because buses can be seen as 'poor man's transport' and any industrial action would probably have not affected those decisionmakers - OTOH there have been a lot of rumours about corruption in the T&GW Union.

Wasn't the average drivers salary under BR something under £20k per annum, which the unions sent up at privitisation?

 

[Kris]

Wasn't the average drivers salary under BR something under £20k per annum, which the unions sent up at privitisation?

I think it was around £12,000 basic before the SWT shadow franchise set up as an experiment. I can remember a driver boasting that he'd earn't £16,000 working loads of overtime.

There's no doubt that privatisation bought a vast improvement in pay and without it I doubt whether I'd have go my driver's job.

Before the infamous 1982 strike drivers' pay used to be very poor.

 

[Tom B]

They shouldn't have been sacked for the first offence, but far too many drivers get away with running early. They might be only interested in their teabreak but when there's only one bus every half hour, running 10 minutes early means a long wait for passengers. The problem however is that with companies being short of drivers, they will not discipline them - so even if you give the registration plate the driver "can't be traced" (yes, I've given you the bus number and date, and your drivers stay with the same bus all day... but you can't trace it. Handy.).

On the other hand I agree that bus pay is far too low. The lowest paid here get £5.85 per hour for shuffling some mouldy Titans around. Hardly an incentive to work properly is it? Another company offers £6.50 (going up to £6.75 soon but it's stayed static for 7 years now) whilst the top payers are First at £7.50.

Of course the low pay is supplemented, let's say, by income from "the-ticket-machine-isn't-working" syndrome.

 

[Kris]

Of course the low pay is supplemented, let's say, by income from "the-ticket-machine-isn't-working" syndrome.

I doubt whether many resort to that - only have to get caught once by a plain clothes inspector and that's your job gone.

On LT we used to give the thumbs down to other drivers or pat the top of our heads to indicate an inspector up the road. On the RM's you'd turn round and do the same through the window to the conductor in the saloon. They'd do the same for us if there was an inspector on-board or getting off so we could warn other buses. LT used to have 'flying squad' cars to to go round checking on buses.

 

[Tom B]

It's not as bad as it used to be in the past, but it's still a common occurance. We do not have plain clothes inspectors, they wear distinctive jackets and don't check tickets - they only record passenger levels from where they get on. Apparently they don't have any authority to comment on the condition of the vehicle either. If there actually were a few plain clothes inspectors, who checked every passengers ticket and the state of the vehicle, things might change. However you can't exactly fine a passenger for not being in possession of a valid ticket if they've paid their money and been refused issue of a ticket by the driver, can you?

 

[Max]

Good on First, they have done the right thing! Trust me, it is exceptionally annoying when you have bothered to get out of bed early to get the 07:43 bus in an attempt to get to school early, and the bus leaves 3-4 minutes early. Even worse when you go for the 08:05 and the bus leaves 5 minutes early, meaning you're very late to school and get told off! If a bus is advertised to leave at a specific time, it should stick to this (unless late obviously) - what's the point in advertising something if it doesn't follow what is advertised?

And the whole thing about working conditions - maybe they should strike about things like that rather than about drivers getting sacked for breaking the rules.

 

[WhiteVanMan]

It's not as bad as it used to be in the past, but it's still a common occurance. We do not have plain clothes inspectors, they wear distinctive jackets and don't check tickets - they only record passenger levels from where they get on. Apparently they don't have any authority to comment on the condition of the vehicle either. If there actually were a few plain clothes inspectors, who checked every passengers ticket and the state of the vehicle, things might change. However you can't exactly fine a passenger for not being in possession of a valid ticket if they've paid their money and been refused issue of a ticket by the driver, can you?

Im a bus driver with Stagecoach, and we have inspectors who wear a special inspectors uniform and they do get on random buses and they do check passengers tickets and check your time keeping (you can get reported for early running) however inspectors have no authority over vehicle condition.
Going back to the early running issue - what do you if nobody gets on or off the bus and you then start running early, theres not a lot you can do about that.
If I find do myself running early, I pull into the next available bus stop and wait for time.
We have one route where they give you 4 minutes from the bus station to a roundabout (a timing point), even in the worst of traffic it takes 2 maybe 3 minutes......

 

[Kris]

I think White Van Man has hit the nail on the head. It's probably down to timing points. As long as you are rigth time off those timing points there is a possibility that you may be early or late inbetween.

 

[Max]

Yes, but the stop where I frequently miss my bus is a definite timed waiting point right in the middle of the village, with space for at least 2 buses to stand if need be.

Unfortunately, due to the laziness of the bus company in my area, standing times of up to ten minutes are frequent at the University (en-route to Hull), especially on Sundays, as EYMS do not adjust the times off-peak. A few weeks back, my service 105 to Hull waited about 7-8 minutes at the University, and still arrived into Hull about 10 minutes early! The 30 minute estimated journey in actual fact should have lasted about 13 minutes :roll:

I can see why this may be frustrating for drivers, but there is really no excuse on a rush hour service into Hull.

 

[Tom B]

I was trying to catch a bus which was 1619 off a timing point, and 1616 off one a mile up the road. Bus passes at 1611... they garble the timing point excuse but it fell to bits.

In the end much as drivers can go on about it, buses must not run early. End of.

 

[WhiteVanMan]

In the end much as drivers can go on about it, buses must not run early. End of.

Just how do you stop early running then?
One bus I drove today left on time, but at a certain point I was 5 minutes early.......
This could not be helped (no one ever gets on, just off) and there was no physical place to stop given that the roads were only just wider than the bus........
If it makes you happier, I arrived at Fleet station a few minutes late...

 

[Tom B]

Just how do you stop early running then?
One bus I drove today left on time, but at a certain point I was 5 minutes early.......
This could not be helped (no one ever gets on, just off) and there was no physical place to stop given that the roads were only just wider than the bus........
If it makes you happier, I arrived at Fleet station a few minutes late...

First you look at the timetables and check that they are sensible and retime where necessary.

Second you make sure timing points have a pull-in bay.

Third you start getting at drivers who run early. They wait at timing points until time, full stop.

Oh and fourth you make sure the times on the Wayfarer are actually correct - if you compare it with the GTS time it can be up to two minutes either side. With radio controlled clocks available dirt cheaply there's not excuse for the time not to be correct.

I had one who point-blank refused to give me a ticket asking "why the f*** I would want one" when I demanded one. He only printed one when I got on the phone to his boss in front of him.

 

[WhiteVanMan]

First you look at the timetables and check that they are sensible and retime where necessary.

Not a drivers responsibility....

Second you make sure timing points have a pull-in bay.

One of the routes I drive has roads barely wider than the bus with nowhere to pull in....

Third you start getting at drivers who run early. They wait at timing points until time, full stop.

We do - we can get disciplined for running too early....

Oh and fourth you make sure the times on the Wayfarer are actually correct - if you compare it with the GTS time it can be up to two minutes either side. With radio controlled clocks available dirt cheaply there's not excuse for the time not to be correct.

As far as Im aware, there is no way of changing the times (which are set by Hampshire council btw), any changes are done overnight on the Wayfarer machine which is set up in the booking on point where we log our own ticket machine modules on......

 

[Jim]

any changes are done overnight on the Wayfarer machine which is set up in the booking on point where we log our own ticket machine modules on......

I remember in Trowbridge 1 morning, it took 1 of our drivers 25 mins to get there module updated!

 

[WhiteVanMan]

I remember in Trowbridge 1 morning, it took 1 of our drivers 25 mins to get there module updated!

Thats why I never sign my module on before I go home - in case of any problems!!

 

[Jim]

Thats why I never sign my module on before I go home - in case of any problems!!

No, this ws before the start of the duty...