Boycott of the railways

[WestCoast]

....and some of the highest wages/ highest cost of living too. Rail travel is therefore reflected by that (a ticket in Portugal may cost a fraction of the price, but then the hourly wage is only a fraction of the UK equivalent).

The UK is around the Northern European average, obviously there are potentially significant regional variations. According to the Wiki table which references statistics to the UK's ONS and equivalents, the average estimated monthly net earnings in the UK was £1440, against approx. £1700 in the Netherlands and approx. £1800 in Germany and approx. £1850 in Sweden. I've no doubt they're not accurate comparisons by some margin, but the UK contrary to popular belief is not the most expensive place in Europe. Try Norway!

 

[notadriver]

I'm sorry, how many passengers have been killed in rail accidents in the last 15 years with an incident speed not exceeding 110km/h?

Statistically (British) coach travel is as safe as train travel. But recently there have been incidents where coaches have overturned causing fatalities all down to driver error.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed I do not think it is useful to try to compare prices with other countries for several reasons

* Exchange rates react to factors such as exports, debt, sentiment not the relative value of consumer goods in respective countries
* Income is different
* Costs of living is different
* EU train services do not compete directly with UK services.

.

And the competitive environment is different. For example, long distance scheduled coach services are generally verboten in Germany. So anyone travelling over about 30 miles who can't / doesn't want to drive has to take the train (or fly).

 

[AeroSpace]

A two hour train journey is £115, and I wasn't even travelling to London!!

There's nothing that anybody can say to me to convince me that that is a fair price at any time of day. Laughable (but only because I could claim it back)

If somebody is willing to pay for it, how can it be unfair?

 

[Railsigns]

Is that why passenger numbers have risen every year recently (despite motoring going down)?

Some boycot, eh?

The OP wrote: "People are thinking of boycotting the railways".

 

[Greenback]

Those who complain about high fares (and I agree that British fares are amongst the highest in Europe, despite the difficulties encountered in comparing the different ticket systems) need to rememebr that the ticket prices here reflect the following

1. Government policy - both in the contributions made by the fare payer and in the general British desire to keep income tax low, which is compensated by higher indirect taxes.

2. The complicated structure f the rail idustry - in my view this contributes to the higher costs of running services

3. The laws of supply and demand - as has been mentioned, rail fares have been rising faster than inflation, yet passenger numbers continue to rise.

4. Yield management techniques - imported from the airlines, rail companies learnt how to maximise revenue by offering a huge range off are options. Some fares are ludicrously cheap, others are far too high, but the passenger often has a lot of choice (which is pretty useless if they are not in a position to take advantage of it).

As to customer service, there are a few issues, but overall, my experiences are pretty positive. Coach travel CAN be cheaper, but isn't always so, and for many it isn't really an option due to the more limited network and the fact that there are fewer services.

Overall, if people are thinking of a boycott, which I doubt, they are only thinking about it and not putting it into action!

 

[tbtc]

The OP wrote: "People are thinking of boycotting the railways".

People have been complaining about the "excessive" cost of train tickets for many years.

Coach travel has been cheaper than train fares for many years (comparing "like for like" tickets).

People have been taking trains in increasing numbers for many years.

People will continue to have arguments like this for many years...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Look at India's railways. A 400 mile journey in second class costs quite literally pennies, and that makes it accesible for all

The UK is around the Northern European average, obviously there are potentially significant regional variations. According to the Wiki table which references statistics to the UK's ONS and equivalents, the average estimated monthly net earnings in the UK was £1440, against approx. £1700 in the Netherlands and approx. £1800 in Germany and approx. £1850 in Sweden. I've no doubt they're not accurate comparisons by some margin, but the UK contrary to popular belief is not the most expensive place in Europe. Try Norway!

Fair point - I was referring to DiscoStu's quote about India (and a similar thread elsewhere on the Forum today about how cheap things are in Portugal).

 

[notadriver]

A trip by train from Scotland to London is far more pleasant by orders of magnitude than travelling by coach where you'll be strapped into your seat for hours on end.

 

[WestCoast]

Those who complain about high fares (and I agree that British fares are amongst the highest in Europe, despite the difficulties encountered in comparing the different ticket systems) need to rememebr that the ticket prices here reflect the following

Excellent points. I've often argued that the UK has the some of the absolute lowest and the most excruciatingly expensive fares in Europe at the same time! Due of course mostly to the factors you've outlined.

There are significant disparities within the UK concerning service levels and fares. You only have to look at some PTE areas and outside them to see that.

 

[Nym]

A trip by train from Scotland to London is far more pleasant by orders of magnitude than travelling by coach where you'll be strapped into your seat for hours on end.

I beleive you'll be limited to half the speed limit and have significanly more stops too...

 

[WestCoast]

A trip by train from Scotland to London is far more pleasant by orders of magnitude than travelling by coach where you'll be strapped into your seat for hours on end.

What about the overnight megabus sleepers?

 

[Greenback]

It is very true to say, as we have found in previous threads on the subject, that cost is not the only criteria that people use when deciding which mode of transport to sue for a given journey.

Other criteria that I personally consider are frequency, convenience, speed and comfort. The value I place one ach will vary according to circumstances.

 

[YorkshireBear]

We have by far the highest rail fares in Europe.

Some bullets points from an article I found :

• A commuter travelling between 10.6 miles (17km) and 25 miles (41km) each morning to London spent an average £1,859.96 on an annual season ticket, compared with £990 in the next most expensive country, France, and £443,69 in the cheapest country, Italy.

• A passenger travelling between 25 miles (41km) and 50 miles (80km) to London faced an average annual ticket cost of £3,188.68 compared with £1934.89 in the second most expensive country, Holland, and £683.20 in the cheapest, Italy.


• Unrestricted day returns to London for a trip of between 10.6 miles (17km) and 25 miles (41km) cost an average £11.57 but a similar journey was £6.88 in Germany and £3.63 in France.

• A walk-up day return to London, from up to 50 miles (80km) away, could cost more than £250, whereas no similar fare in France would exceed £100.


How can any of you try and justify these extortionate prices?

That is all well and good, but can you also compare train lengths and freqeucnies on these routes?

Some london commuter routes have 6tph 10car. Some in france may have 1tph 5car. Paying for a very convenient service in some cases?

You cant just compare prices and distances that is not how the world works.

 

[fsmr]

Could you give an example of a rail journey you think is too expensive and how much you think it should cost?

Oakham to Leicester for a start. 26 minutes journey via Melton but if i want to go in by train with my 21yr old on spur of the moment today to watch the football, the cost return today would be £21.80 for both of us
The journey is only 26 miles by road and takes 45 minutes to the stadium and as this government sees fit to tax me on my company car to death regardless of if i use it or not for private, i might as well take my big Germanic estate which being modern diesel and doing 55 mpg will cost me only a gallon of derv plus I can park near the ground rather than walking 20 minutes from the station plus the knowledge that i am going to get there whereas there is no guarantee the train will arrive which means an hour wait for the next.(and in 28 years of company cars, i have only ever broken down once and that cost me an hour)

The same applies to private funded cars as although there is a variable cost, most costs of ownership are regardless of use such as insurance,RFL, MOT and to some extent servicing so again the cost will be mostly fuel, as those costs still have to be paid if the train is used

To make the journey competitive, £5 per adult off peak would be the sort of charge needed and even then it would cost me compared to taking the company car
Of course should the government see sense and remove these fixed costs and tax and make them variable i.e based on private use mileage, I would then reconsider it. More likely, some Muppet will then slap a £20 pound entry charge into Leicester by car but the rail fare will; stay the same in which case I wont bother going
Compared to London and the home counties, our rail fares are exorbitant and dont get me started on the turn up price to London return



That said, there are so many folks that don't have access to a car that the trains are always full with no seats available as there is a poor bus alternative

 

[tbtc]

I beleive you'll be limited to half the speed limit and have significanly more stops too...

Coaches are limited to 60mph IIRC?

The motorway speed limit is 70mph.

 

[Holly]

... How can any of you try and justify these extortionate prices?

It's the price of having a franchise system instead of either of the alternatives (public ownership or unrestricted competition).
It's what makes being a TOC worthwhile, otherwise why be an investor in operating trains?

 

[Essexman]

When comparing the costs to drive people generally only include petrol costs. This is perhaps half the cost. Wear & tear, servicing, tyres, oil etc are all related to mileage so need to be included.

 

[fsmr]

Coaches are limited to 60mph IIRC?

The motorway speed limit is 70mph.

No 70 on a Mway, 60 on a dual carraigeway but coaches over certain size (i.e not a minibus) are not allowed in the outside lane of a 3 or 4 lane Mway

 

[notadriver]

Coaches are limited to 60mph IIRC?

The motorway speed limit is 70mph.

Not to be pedantic (really) - it's 100 kph or 62 mph for coaches and banned from the outside lane of motorways with 3 or more lanes so in practice the speed will be the 56 mph or less that lorries are limited to and this assumes no roadworks or traffic jams!

That mega coach sleeper thing is okay but apparently it's a triple bunk with only a curtain as privacy.

 

[WestCoast]

That is all well and good, but can you also compare train lengths and freqeucnies on these routes?

Some london commuter routes have 6tph 10car. Some in france may have 1tph 5car. Paying for a very convenient service in some cases?

You cant just compare prices and distances that is not how the world works.

Obviously the standard of service has to be taken into account, but what makes you think that UK always has superior frequencies and train lengths? For some of parts of France it may be true, but the RER commuter services in the Paris region are frequent with high capacity levels. There has to be like-for-like comparisons otherwise it's like comparing Thameslink to the Heart of Wales line!

 

[Metrailway]

I'm sorry, how many passengers have been killed in rail accidents in the last 15 years with an incident speed not exceeding 110km/h?

Statistically, bus and coach travel is safer than rail travel in Britain. In 2008, 0.3 people died every billion passenger kilometres by railway, whilst 0.1 people died every billion passenger kilometres by bus and coach travel.

 

[YorkshireBear]

and in 28 years of company cars, i have only ever broken down once and that cost me an hour)

Never been in a traffic jam or delayed by roadworks either?

 

[notadriver]

Statistically, bus and coach travel is safer than rail travel in Britain. In 2008, 0.3 people died every billion passenger kilometres by railway, whilst 0.1 people died every billion passenger kilometres by bus and coach travel.

Does the figure for the railways include suicides as I can't think of any UK rail accidents in recent memory where anyone has died apart from the Virgin Pendolino.

 

[michael769]

No 70 on a Mway, 60 on a dual carraigeway but coaches over certain size (i.e not a minibus) are not allowed in the outside lane of a 3 or 4 lane Mway

Coaches have to be fitted with limiters that restrict their speed to 100kph (62mph).

Don't know, but surely much less than on coaches...?

Nope it's actually the other way round.

 

[Harlesden]

With reference to the comment in the OP about coach travel being cheaper than railways, I am 57 years old and coach travel has ALWAYS been cheaper than rail travel. I would have thought it was common sense.
Coach = 1 vehicle, 1 driver
Rail = driver + conductor, signalers, station staff, catering staff, track maintenance staff.
All the people that make your train journey possible earn and deserve a living wage

 

[Metrailway]

Does the figure for the railways include suicides as I can't think of any UK rail accidents in recent memory where anyone has died apart from the Virgin Pendolino.

The figures for rail does not include suicides, trespassers, or death at stations unrelated to train movements. The figure for rail includes all incidents on NR, LUL, Eurotunnel, 'minor' railways, and tram systems.

 

[tbtc]

With reference to the comment in the OP about coach travel being cheaper than railways, I am 57 years old and coach travel has ALWAYS been cheaper than rail travel. I would have thought it was common sense.
Coach = 1 vehicle, 1 driver
Rail = driver + conductor, signalers, station staff, catering staff, track maintenance staff.
All the people that make your train journey possible earn and deserve a living wage

I don't know what you call a "living wage" but I think that on the modern railway all of those people earn more than the coach driver
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No 70 on a Mway, 60 on a dual carraigeway but coaches over certain size (i.e not a minibus) are not allowed in the outside lane of a 3 or 4 lane Mway

Not to be pedantic (really) - it's 100 kph or 62 mph for coaches and banned from the outside lane of motorways so in practice the speed will be the 56 mph or less that lorries are limited to and this assumes no roadworks or traffic jams!

That mega coach sleeper thing is okay but apparently it's a triple bunk with only a curtain as privacy.

Fair points - the coach certainly won't be "limited to half the speed limit"

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't know what you call a "living wage" but I think that on the modern railway all of those people earn more than the coach driver

MEgabus is 26K i believe but can go up to 30K with overtime

 

[notadriver]

I think their basic is £8-£9 an hour but they do a lot of hours a week.

I think limited to half the speed limit was a comparison to Anglo Scottish trains with a top speed of 125 mph. Interestingly coaches are physically limited to their 62 mph or less in many cases. I once drove something limited to 59 mph on my GPS. I was overtaken by every other coach ! The trains allow their drivers a small margin above their speed limit before action is taken.

 

[OxtedL]

Fair points - the coach certainly won't be "limited to half the speed limit"

I read Nym's comment to be about the speed limit of a coach versus the speed limit of the railway.

^Ah I see beaten to it.