Should Victoria-Piccadilly Metrolink be enhanced?

[185]

An idea.... when 2CC opens, what about a city-circle tram?

Vic-Deansgate-Pic-Vic

 

[northwichcat]

So you pull a service that serves hundreds of local commuters - and has done since 2001 - for the sake of few suits from London? People that will be used to the idea of changing trains to get to their destination.

You gave the impression earlier you knew all about usage of Metrolink services. Then you make a comment like that!

When I was in a MediaCity studio audience of around 500 people a warm up person asked some people where they had come from. Answers included Widnes, Huddersfield, Glasgow and Blackpool. I'd estimate around 300 of them used the tram to get there. Two trams left full and standing before I could get on one and that one was also full and standing. (There were of course other passengers apart from the studio audience before anyone says the trams weren't really full and standing.)

Also the filming finished the same time a test match finished at Old Trafford. If the people who had boarded at MediaCity and intended to travel back to Piccadilly, they would have been waiting a long time for a tram that could carry them at Cornbrook with all the trams from Altrincham being crammed.

Also are you aware about the MediaCity connections with various Lancashire and West/South Yorkshire universities?

If you don't like direct services being cut even if possibly more people will gain compared to those who'll lose out then I take it you think converting the Altrincham line was a bad decision.

 

[snail]

You were the one that mentioned London. I still maintain that its primary purpose is to serve local residents, which a Piccadilly-MediaCity service doesn't.

If you're going to change your question to suit your answer I don't see the point in prolonging this discussion.

 

[CJ]

It is also permitted to go from Piccadilly to Salford Crescent to Victoria.

Yep it is.

The few times I've traveled on a train towards Southport/Preston, by the time it reaches Salford Crescent, the conductor (occasionally) says "change here for services to Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Ashton and Stalybridge".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone the final total completed project cost figure for the construction of the two-platform Media City UK station and its connectional trackwork to the Eccles line ?

 

[northwichcat]

You were the one that mentioned London. I still maintain that its primary purpose is to serve local residents, which a Piccadilly-MediaCity service doesn't.

If you're going to change your question to suit your answer I don't see the point in prolonging this discussion.

I earlier had mentioned long distance passengers in general.

I'm not sure what benefit that is supposed to achieve given that MediaCity will attract long distance passengers who'll mainly arrive at Piccadilly. Maybe if it becomes a 3 minute shuttle to Cornbrook there's benefits but otherwise I can't see any significant ones.

London was an example I used as people from London would probably be less familiar with the Manchester Metrolink than people from Manchester are with the London Underground. You don't see Metrolink route maps printed in diaries sold in London or the like. You do get Underground route maps printed in diaries sold in Manchester.

Your reply made it sound like I was suggesting disadvantaging hundreds of local people for something that would ONLY benefit a few people from London. So I was pointing out that there's a large number of passengers possibly every day who travel to MediaCity (as well as the Lowry and the Imperial War Museum North) from outside the local area, so a large number of passengers benefit from the direct link to MediaCity from Piccadilly. As someone who was claiming to know about all the passenger flows on the line I'm surprised you didn't point it out yourself if you thought I was only thinking about people travelling between London and MediaCity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has anyone the final total completed project cost figure for the construction of the two-platform Media City UK station and its connectional trackwork to the Eccles line ?

It was paid for by Peel Holdings as part of the MediaCity development so it might not appear as an itemised cost in the way it would if it was paid for by council tax payers.

 

[tbtc]

Maybe when the Chat Moss line is electrified we'll see more longer distance services stopping at Eccles for the tram connection to Media City (I appreciate that there's a frequent bus service from Salford too)

 

[Greybeard33]

An idea.... when 2CC opens, what about a city-circle tram?

Vic-Deansgate-Pic-Vic

I think the difficulty with this is that a reversal in St. Peters Square would be needed. The proposed post-2CC track layout shows that this would block the points where the 1CC and 2CC outbound tracks merge, which will become one of the busiest junctions in the network. If the 1CC and 2CC lines eventually get used to their maximum capacity, headways between St Peters Sq and Cornbrook could be less than a minute, and I do not think that the driver would have time to get from one cab to the other without delaying following services.

I also have doubts that the repercussions of terminating MediaCity services at Cornbrook have been properly thought through. There are no plans for a south-facing bay at at Cornbrook, so the inbound MediaCity trams would have to disgorge their passengers at the main inbound platform. With the very short headways, I do not think the driver would have time to walk through the tram and eject any dozy passengers before proceeding into the headshunt siding. On the other hand there could be ugly scenes if passengers found themselves still on board in the siding!

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe when the Chat Moss line is electrified we'll see more longer distance services stopping at Eccles for the tram connection to Media City (I appreciate that there's a frequent bus service from Salford too)

Eccles has the disadvantage of Metrolink being 1/2 mile from heavy rail so doesn't make itself a heavy rail/Metrolink interchange in the way Altrincham, Deansgate, Victoria and Piccadilly are.

I don't think long distance services calling at Eccles is that likely unless the Grand Central/Alliance Rail proposal for a London service from 'Eccles Parkway' goes through.

Eccles is set to get extra Manchester-Liverpool local services calling there but TPE services on Chat Moss won't call at intermediate stations between Manchester and Wigan/Liverpool.

 

[snail]

A couple more thoughts on the merits of having a Cornbrook-MediaCity shuttle instead of Cornbrook-Eccles:

1. Passenger flows are in different directions. People travelling to MediaCity to work will be going against the main flows in to or out of Manchester in the peaks, so changing to or from Altrincham or Chorlton services should not be an issue. Eccles passengers would find themselves trying to board packed trams at Cornbrook in the morning peak.

2. Timings are longer to Eccles than MediaCity. This could affect operation in terms of layovers and the number of trams required. A number of new trams were ordered to run the shuttle; taking it to Eccles may mean there are insufficient vehicles to run effectively.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I intercede here on behalf of what now appears to be a total of four stops on the Eccles line, that may as well be in "The Land that Time Forgot" as far as these discussions are concerned, which serve areas not favoured by such auspicious entities as Media City UK or the various large commercial and financial establishment en route to Media City UK.

I refer to Ladywell, Weaste, Langworthy and Broadway, which may well cater for a different socio-economic travelling clientèle, but are all as equally deserving of a direct route to and from the Manchester core, with being disadvantaged by a change at Cornbrook.

I am sure that once the services are up-and-running to both Manchester Airport and to Parrs Wood, no one will envisage changing services at the bifurcation point stop at St Werburgh's Road.

 

[dggar]

A couple more thoughts on the merits of having a Cornbrook-MediaCity shuttle instead of Cornbrook-Eccles:

1. Passenger flows are in different directions. People travelling to MediaCity to work will be going against the main flows in to or out of Manchester in the peaks, so changing to or from Altrincham or Chorlton services should not be an issue. Eccles passengers would find themselves trying to board packed trams at Cornbrook in the morning peak.

2. Timings are longer to Eccles than MediaCity. This could affect operation in terms of layovers and the number of trams required. A number of new trams were ordered to run the shuttle; taking it to Eccles may mean there are insufficient vehicles to run effectively.

So why not use all units currently working Pic to Media City and Pic Eccles as double formations and run them Pic Eccles via Media City.

 

[Manchester77]

So why not use all units currently working Pic to Media City and Pic Eccles as double formations and run them Pic Eccles via Media City.

Because when heading southbound towards Eccles they call at Mosley Street. Mosley Street's platform is an original variable height platform meaning it is only high enough for level boarding with no steps out of a single unit. The origanal T68s have retractable steps so when operating as doubles and calling at platforms like this passengers can alight without having to jump. So why not do this now? M5000s are the Eccles/MediaCityUK main revive operators with the dwindling T68 population operating ALT-BUR directs and T68A units on BUR-PIC. T68A units cannot be coupled as when they are coupled they experience electrical failures. If we swapped double ALT-BUR directs with single M5000s on ALT-BUR directs there would be major overcrowding issues.
Basically your plan will be good. Once TMS is in operation in the city, Mosley Street will close and PIDs will go live*
Then double M5000s can run on all routes without Mosley Street problems. But with BUR-ALT directs planned as always being doubled and other lines opening the question comes if we have enought trams to go around with double directs, Eccles and perhaps airport....
* - TfGM said they will only close Mosley Street when TMS is in operation so PIds can operate as the replacement they promise are large PIDs in the city showing next trams etc
** - airport will only have a 12 minute frequency and with the line serving the city, suburban manchester and the airport demand will be high so I'd imaging doubles may have to be deployed. If you have all these new lines with doubles needed will there be enough trams..?

 

[martin2345uk]

** - airport will only have a 12 minute frequency and with the line serving the city, suburban manchester and the airport demand will be high

Actually Purdy said at his talk in Manchester that the plan was for the Airport Line to go to a 6 minute service.

 

[northwichcat]

May I intercede here on behalf of what now appears to be a total of four stops on the Eccles line, that may as well be in "The Land that Time Forgot" as far as these discussions are concerned, which serve areas not favoured by such auspicious entities as Media City UK or the various large commercial and financial establishment en route to Media City UK.

I refer to Ladywell, Weaste, Langworthy and Broadway, which may well cater for a different socio-economic travelling clientèle, but are all as equally deserving of a direct route to and from the Manchester core, with being disadvantaged by a change at Cornbrook.

I am sure that once the services are up-and-running to both Manchester Airport and to Parrs Wood, no one will envisage changing services at the bifurcation point stop at St Werburgh's Road.

'The Land That Time Forget' argument could also apply (even more so) to certain local stations between Birchwood and Manchester Oxford Rd and between Mouldsworth and Hale.

Relating to the Airport Metrolink line TfGM have apparently looked at a Baguley interchange between the Metrolink Airport line and the Altrincham-Stockport line. However, at the rate they are progressing with that don't expect to see one any time soon. When a feasibility report looked in to the running of Crewe-Middlewich-Northwich and beyond services it mentioned the cost:benefit ratio of running to Stockport would be increased by stations at Cheadle and Baguley but TfGM didn't bother to respond to it!

 

[tbtc]

airport will only have a 12 minute frequency and with the line serving the city, suburban manchester and the airport demand will be high so I'd imaging doubles may have to be deployed. If you have all these new lines with doubles needed will there be enough trams..?

It's going to be a very slow way of getting from the City Centre to the Airport (compared to the eight trains an hour) - I doubt that many people are going to use it for the full stretch (in the way that they aren't likely to use Metrolink to get from Victoria to Rochdale)

 

[northwichcat]

It's going to be a very slow way of getting from the City Centre to the Airport (compared to the eight trains an hour) - I doubt that many people are going to use it for the full stretch (in the way that they aren't likely to use Metrolink to get from Victoria to Rochdale)

It's going to be a bit like Berlin Schoenefeld Airport at Manchester Airport once Metrolink opens. At Berlin Schoenefeld there are DB Regio fast services to central Berlin and beyond, as well as slow S-Bahn services. The S-Bahn services really serve the communities between the city and the Airport while the DB Regio services are the ones which carry the tourists staying in Berlin (and Potsdam.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Relating to the Airport Metrolink line TfGM have apparently looked at a Baguley interchange between the Metrolink Airport line and the Altrincham-Stockport line. However, at the rate they are progressing with that don't expect to see one any time soon. When a feasibility report looked in to the running of Crewe-Middlewich-Northwich and beyond services it mentioned the cost:benefit ratio of running to Stockport would be increased by stations at Cheadle and Baguley but TfGM didn't bother to respond to it!

Since the Manchester Metrolink extension from St Werburgh's Road to Manchester Airport is not expected to be completed until 2016, the matter of an interchange station in the Baguley area still has much time from the end of 2012 to then to achieve fruition.

The heavy rail single track sections between Navigation Road and Stockport are rather an unfortunate fact of life, but one must bear in mind that after the withdrawal of the previous passenger train services on this line section and its subsequent dedicated freight service usage, it was decided to rationalise the trackwork formations there.

 

[BuhSnarf]

It's going to be a very slow way of getting from the City Centre to the Airport (compared to the eight trains an hour) - I doubt that many people are going to use it for the full stretch (in the way that they aren't likely to use Metrolink to get from Victoria to Rochdale)

I imagine the metrolink is going to be mainly for the huge population of airport workers who live in Wythenshawe area who cant catch a train. As an ex-airport worker I can imagine this will attract a fair few off the bus.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[northwichcat]

The heavy rail single track sections between Navigation Road and Stockport are rather an unfortunate fact of life, but one must bear in mind that after the withdrawal of the previous passenger train services on this line section and its subsequent dedicated freight service usage, it was decided to rationalise the trackwork formations there.

When the Motorway was built there were no scheduled passenger services on the line so it was cheapest option to rip up some line then to build the Motorway around it. Although, GMPTE should have given the missing track more consideration when they decided to convert the Sale line to Metrolink.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I imagine the metrolink is going to be mainly for the huge population of airport workers who live in Wythenshawe area who cant catch a train. As an ex-airport worker I can imagine this will attract a fair few off the bus.

The Wythenshawe-Airport buses obviously are very profitable given that North Western (now Arriva) purchased Star Line Travel and the former Star Line Wythenshawe area buses remain operated by Arriva while they've given up many other Star Line routes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Wythenshawe-Airport buses obviously are very profitable given that North Western (now Arriva) purchased Star Line Travel and the former Star Line Wythenshawe area buses remain operated by Arriva while they've given up many other Star Line routes.

This is not to forget the Stagecoach Manchester "airport" services 43 (to Manchester Piccadilly via Withington) and 105 (to Manchester Piccadilly via Northenden), that both also use Wythenshawe bus station and serve different areas of Wythenshawe.

I think that you will find the Arriva "flagship" route 19 service (Stockport-Wythenshawe-Altrincham) received a brand new dedicated fleet a few years ago, which Star Line would not have been able to launch in the same fleet numbers had they still been in operation.

Incidentally do you remember the Arriva minibus X3 service than ran from Manchester-Wythenshawe-Manchester Airport-M56-Preston Brook-Ellesmere Port-Chester, that carried the Arriva depot address of Llandudno Junction on its side ?

 

[northwichcat]

I think that you will find the Arriva "flagship" route 19 service (Stockport-Wythenshawe-Altrincham) received a brand new dedicated fleet a few years ago, which Star Line would not have been able to launch in the same fleet numbers had they still been in operation.

Although Star Line did always maintain a modern fleet and if you caught a Star Line bus it was rarely more than 3 years old and probably never more than 5 years old. So a new designated fleet wouldn't have had the same effect back when Star Line were still operating.

If you caught the 288 bus in the months before the takeover you may well have caught this bus:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5568303728/

In 2007 when there was a bus crash on the 288 route either the same bus or an identical model and age bus was the one involved.

There was also a dedicated Airport bus fleet around the time of the takeover which included route branding: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15218213@N06/4305003236/
Although, those buses did find their way on to other services.

Incidentally the former head of Star Line Travel went on to set up a bus leasing company - Mistral.

Incidentally do you remember the Arriva minibus X3 service than ran from Manchester-Wythenshawe-Manchester Airport-M56-Preston Brook-Ellesmere Port-Chester, that carried the Arriva depot address of Llandudno Junction on its side ?

No.

 

[tamesidedepot]

Incidentally do you remember the Arriva minibus X3 service than ran from Manchester-Wythenshawe-Manchester Airport-M56-Preston Brook-Ellesmere Port-Chester, that carried the Arriva depot address of Llandudno Junction on its side ?

I remember that one, travelled on it a few times too from the Airport to Chester and back.
That particular service saw some unusual buses at times including some ex-Colchester Leyland Lynx still in CBT livery and one operator used an ex-London Optare StarRider.